Conquer Club

Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Yes- Sally Hemings wasn't free to consent
11
25%
No- I'm ok with sexual slavery
20
45%
Kittens
13
30%
 
Total votes : 44

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby chang50 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:34 am

john9blue wrote:so you're just going to keep making absolute statements using vague terminology, sym? i don't like that. in fact i think i'm going to be very explicit about your thought process here, since you aren't willing to:

SYMMETRY'S ARGUMENT:
- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.
- TJ is a UUP, therefore we should not give very much credit to his ideas.

i leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the fallacies in this line of argument. unless you disagree with any of the above, sym?


That is an almost perfect illustration of a strawman argument..
User avatar
Lieutenant chang50
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:54 am
Location: pattaya,thailand
Medals: 16
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Polymorphic Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Beta Map Achievement (2) Bot Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:36 am

chang50 wrote:
john9blue wrote:so you're just going to keep making absolute statements using vague terminology, sym? i don't like that. in fact i think i'm going to be very explicit about your thought process here, since you aren't willing to:

SYMMETRY'S ARGUMENT:
- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.
- TJ is a UUP, therefore we should not give very much credit to his ideas.

i leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the fallacies in this line of argument. unless you disagree with any of the above, sym?


That is an almost perfect illustration of a strawman argument..


which is why i asked symmetry whether it was accurate or not, a luxury not afforded to me when my opponents make straw man arguments out of my positions (which happens somewhat frequently)
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:47 am

Not my line of thinking John. Chang was sharp to point out that the strawman here is yours, not mine.

- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.


These however, I can agree with.
User avatar
Sergeant Symmetry
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 am

Symmetry wrote:Not my line of thinking John. Chang was sharp to point out that the strawman here is yours, not mine.

- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.


These however, I can agree with.


so it is true that you think TJ having sex with an underage slave means he must have been an untrustworthy person? even considering the environment in which he lived? if so then i don't think this thread is going to convince anyone of anything.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby xeno on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:01 am

On a related note, when do you all think girls peak in beauty?
Image
User avatar
Cadet xeno
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Colbert Nation
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:02 am

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Not my line of thinking John. Chang was sharp to point out that the strawman here is yours, not mine.

- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.


These however, I can agree with.


so it is true that you think TJ having sex with an underage slave means he must have been an untrustworthy person? even considering the environment in which he lived? if so then i don't think this thread is going to convince anyone of anything.


I do count rapists and slavers as untrustworthy. What kind of value system do you operate under where you thinks it's ok?
User avatar
Sergeant Symmetry
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby tkr4lf on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:08 am

xeno wrote:On a related note, when do you all think girls peak in beauty?

Late teens/early twenties.
User avatar
Major tkr4lf
 
Posts: 1510
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:35 am
Location: Austin, TX
Medals: 64
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (4)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (12) Tournament Contribution (14)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby xeno on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:09 am

tkr4lf wrote:
xeno wrote:On a related note, when do you all think girls peak in beauty?

Late teens/early twenties.

So 16ish?
Image
User avatar
Cadet xeno
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Colbert Nation
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:15 am

Haha, wow. I can't believe how absolutist he is. You'd think he'd stop being an avid supporter of the government--with such inflexible morals.

A draft requires the use of force for involuntarily forcing people into a particular field of labor: the military. This is essentially slavery because:

(1) no consent was given,
(2) the slave/'new recruit' is coerced into working and becomes the property of someone else/an organization,
(3) the Social Contract is a bunch of rubbish.
(4) and contracts involving coercion are not legitimate.

Therefore, Sym would have to conclude that anyone who supported any draft is untrustworthy for they are slavers and/or are abetting slavers--which makes little difference.


I wonder if Sym favors any politicians who supported a draft...
(At least the anarchists are morally sound on this one).
User avatar
Major BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:28 am

I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.
User avatar
Sergeant Symmetry
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:43 am

Symmetry wrote:I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.


But the slavery of adults is morally acceptable to you?
User avatar
Major BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby MeDeFe on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:01 am

chang50 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:To claim that he was a rapist because she was 14 years old is pretty dubious considering adulthood was much earlier than it is today.

You have a marginally more convincing case with the fact she was a slave, but considering that Jefferson is known to have been a genial slave owner (versus an abusive/violent) one, the implication that this was a forcible relationship would probably be unfounded.


Genial slave owner???The very fact she was a slave is a forcible relationship,and actually adulthood as in the onset of puberty occurred much later then.


I'm going by memory here, and some things may not apply to the USA, so take the following with a grain of salt. "Adulthood" was a somewhat mixed bag back then. IIRC you were for all intents and purposes considered adult at the age of 25, and then only if you were male, but as long as your father was alive he could overrule you on quite a lot of matters if he so wished. Sex was something your parents or guardian consented to for you, it was called "marriage" and usually took place well before you had become an adult. If you went and did it before marriage you were supposed not to be found out, and definitely not get yourself or someone else pregnant.

It is arguable that a slave (much like a woman) could never be considered an adult on account of not having the rights and duties of one.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 8098
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) General Achievement (3) General Contribution (7)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:16 am

john9blue wrote:so you're just going to keep making absolute statements using vague terminology, sym? i don't like that. in fact i think i'm going to be very explicit about your thought process here, since you aren't willing to:

SYMMETRY'S ARGUMENT:
- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.
- TJ is a UUP, therefore we should not give very much credit to his ideas.

i leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the fallacies in this line of argument. unless you disagree with any of the above, sym?


That's where he's going with this ("TJ was a rapist, therefore [insert anyone Symmetry disagrees with]'s views based on TJ's views are invalid"), but that doesn't mean Thomas Jefferson wasn't a rapist. He probably was (assuming he had sex with a woman who was a slave at the time). There are rarely individuals in history who don't have some baggage (for lack of a better term). That doesn't mean their ideas are invalid (to most people... Symmetry seems to think personal actions affect the validity of ideas for some reason).
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6571
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby GeneralRisk on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:46 am

Symmetry wrote:What do you think?

Sarah "Sally" Hemings (Charles City County, Virginia, circa 1773 – Charlottesville, Virginia, 1835) was an enslaved woman of mixed race owned by President Thomas Jefferson through his wife's inheritance. The youngest of six siblings by the planter John Wayles and his slave Betty Hemings, Hemings was the half-sister of Jefferson's wife Martha Wayles Skelton.[1] The Hemings' and all of Wayles' slaves were inherited by the Jeffersons a year after their marriage and were taken to Monticello. The Hemings children and their descendants were trained as domestic servants and artisans.
In 1787, Sally Hemings at the age of 14 was chosen to accompany Mary (Polly), the youngest daughter of Jefferson, to Paris to rejoin her father; the widower was serving as the United States Ambassador to France. She spent two years there. Hemings and Jefferson are believed to have begun a sexual relationship then or soon after their return to Monticello. She had a total of six children of record born into slavery; four survived to adulthood and were noted for their resemblance to Jefferson. Sally Hemings served in Jefferson's household as a domestic servant until his death.
The historical question of whether Jefferson was the father of her children has been known as the Jefferson-Hemings controversy. Following renewed historic analysis and a 1998 DNA study that found a match between the Jefferson male line and a descendant of her last son, Eston Hemings, a consensus among historians supports that the widower Jefferson fathered her son Eston Hemings and likely all her children.[2] Some historians disagree.[3]
Even though he was deeply in debt, Jefferson freed all of Sally Hemings' children: Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston, as they came of age. They were seven-eighths European in ancestry, and three of the four entered white society as adults. Their descendants identified as white.[4][5] As the historian Edmund S. Morgan has noted, "Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson’s daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, who was, of course, her niece."[6] Hemings lived her last nine years with her two younger sons in Charlottesville, and saw a grandchild born in the house her sons owned. After their mother's death in 1835, Eston and Madison Hemings migrated with their families to Chillicothe in the free state of Ohio.

It has never been proven that Thomas Jefferson ever had sex with any slave. The charge at the time was an effort to defeat Thomas Jefferson’s bid for the presidency by accusing him of what, at that time, would be considered “monstrous behavior.” Why? Because, of course, that would violate not only the laws of God, but the laws of the State of Virginia. The Times Dispatch reported: “‘By making any connection between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, you are calling him a liar and a criminal, because it was against the law to have sexual relations with slaves,’ said Jefferson descendant Matthew Mackay-Smith.” Besides, Sally Hemings was also Jefferson’s sister-in-law. He inherited the Monticello estate, and its slaves, including Sally, when both his wife and her father, who also was the father of Sally Hemings, died. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304211804577500870076728362.htmlThe Jefferson-Hemings story was sustained through the 19th century by Northern abolitionists, British critics of American democracy[of whom apparently still do so to this very day], and others. Here is another link in case you don't have a sub. to the WSJ.http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2011/0831/Thomas-Jefferson-and-Sally-Hemings-one-of-history-s-myths
Last edited by GeneralRisk on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Major GeneralRisk
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:58 pm
Location: Neu-Schwabenland
Medals: 70
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Polymorphic Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (11) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:03 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:it's a black-and-white issue.


Image
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant Army of GOD
 
Posts: 6365
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 pm
Medals: 28
Most Improved Silver (1) Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2)
Terminator Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:05 am

Also, he probably is a rapist, but I don't think that's as bad as owning slaves.

Anyone who thinks Jefferson was a god is an idiot. Everyone is human and would chose evil if it suited us.
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant Army of GOD
 
Posts: 6365
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 pm
Medals: 28
Most Improved Silver (1) Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2)
Terminator Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:14 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, wow. I can't believe how absolutist he is. You'd think he'd stop being an avid supporter of the government--with such inflexible morals.

A draft requires the use of force for involuntarily forcing people into a particular field of labor: the military. This is essentially slavery because:

(1) no consent was given,
(2) the slave/'new recruit' is coerced into working and becomes the property of someone else/an organization,
(3) the Social Contract is a bunch of rubbish.
(4) and contracts involving coercion are not legitimate.

Therefore, Sym would have to conclude that anyone who supported any draft is untrustworthy for they are slavers and/or are abetting slavers--which makes little difference.


I wonder if Sym favors any politicians who supported a draft...
(At least the anarchists are morally sound on this one).


That connection's a stretch with what the implied definition of 'slave', 'slavery', etc. was within the context of this thread. That's an unfair statement, BBS.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.


But the slavery of adults is morally acceptable to you?


This is also an unfair statement. It's like if I say "I like dogs" and you follow up with "why don't you like cats?".

BMO
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class rdsrds2120
 
Posts: 7231
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:42 am
Medals: 90
Conquer Cup Bronze Achievement (1) Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3)
Terminator Achievement (3) Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (9)
Clan Achievement (7) Training Achievement (3) Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (9)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Gillipig on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:15 am

Sexual slavery sounds hot!! Mmmm, I want myself a little sex slave hehe. Or maybe I could be one??
AoG for President of the World!!
I promise he will put George W. Bush to shame!
User avatar
Lieutenant Gillipig
 
Posts: 3583
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:24 pm
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (3)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:33 am

rdsrds2120 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.


But the slavery of adults is morally acceptable to you?


This is also an unfair statement. It's like if I say "I like dogs" and you follow up with "why don't you like cats?".

BMO


This is a poor analogy. The proper analogy is "You shouldn't kill puppies" and the BBS follow up is "but you're okay with killing adult dogs?"
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6571
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:47 am

rdsrds2120 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, wow. I can't believe how absolutist he is. You'd think he'd stop being an avid supporter of the government--with such inflexible morals.

A draft requires the use of force for involuntarily forcing people into a particular field of labor: the military. This is essentially slavery because:

(1) no consent was given,
(2) the slave/'new recruit' is coerced into working and becomes the property of someone else/an organization,
(3) the Social Contract is a bunch of rubbish.
(4) and contracts involving coercion are not legitimate.

Therefore, Sym would have to conclude that anyone who supported any draft is untrustworthy for they are slavers and/or are abetting slavers--which makes little difference.


I wonder if Sym favors any politicians who supported a draft...
(At least the anarchists are morally sound on this one).


That connection's a stretch with what the implied definition of 'slave', 'slavery', etc. was within the context of this thread. That's an unfair statement, BBS.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.


But the slavery of adults is morally acceptable to you?


This is also an unfair statement. It's like if I say "I like dogs" and you follow up with "why don't you like cats?".

BMO


I completely disagree. If you run with Sym's context-free logic, you get silly conclusions. (reductio ad absurdum).

The second response is tongue-and-cheek because Sym's simply dodging the issue--like Phatscotty, so it's only fair to supply him with the crap he offers.
User avatar
Major BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:52 am

Symmetry wrote: If she couldn't freely consent, even within the narrow strictures of the time? It was certainly within his power to make her free.

Yes, but would her life truly have been better? We tend to glamourize the issue today, but while I in no way shape or form justify slavery as OK, to pretend that the standards of a non slave society are the same as they were then is just wrong. A freed person who was black had few real options. In many cases, they had more opportunities and were just plain safer, both physically and financially in slavery.

The argument is always "but they were not free..." or "but he could have freed her and still kept her". But in truth, given the mores of the time, he probably could not have done so. His having her as a slave was "permissable". Keeping her as free would not have been. Even the case of the children.. not freeing them until they were "of age" was reasonable, given the mores of the day.

There are a lot of things that were wrong back then. That is why its called "progress". However, to expect one man, even a great thinker, to have just changed all of that is to expect too much. Jefferson was an intelligent man who set forth the stage that eventually did lead to the end of slavery, but it took time .... and a big, nasty war. Personally, I am grateful that we have the country we have today. That it came to be imperfectly is a reflection of us being human.


OH... and here is another point you sidestep. To be truly fair, you would have to compare how she was treated to how a white wife would have been treated. The truth, again, is that she was treated pretty well, given the standards of the say. Again, you want to take today's standards and apply it to what happened then. That is not a reasonable thing to do.

I mean the whole "I am OK with sexual slavery" is no more "objective" than Viceroy's evolution pole... truly. The idea of "sexual slavery" as you put forward was not even considered then as it is today. The fact is that many legal wives were essentially "sexual slaves".. not entitled to any rights. In many cases children had more rights than adult women, particularly male children. As much as I would definitely not want to have been in her position back then, (would not have wanted to live back then period!), if I had to be a woman in that time, to have been her would not have been that bad of a choice.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2611
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Postby Symmetry on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:21 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote: If she couldn't freely consent, even within the narrow strictures of the time? It was certainly within his power to make her free.

Yes, but would her life truly have been better? We tend to glamourize the issue today, but while I in no way shape or form justify slavery as OK, to pretend that the standards of a non slave society are the same as they were then is just wrong. A freed person who was black had few real options. In many cases, they had more opportunities and were just plain safer, both physically and financially in slavery.

The argument is always "but they were not free..." or "but he could have freed her and still kept her". But in truth, given the mores of the time, he probably could not have done so. His having her as a slave was "permissable". Keeping her as free would not have been. Even the case of the children.. not freeing them until they were "of age" was reasonable, given the mores of the day.

There are a lot of things that were wrong back then. That is why its called "progress". However, to expect one man, even a great thinker, to have just changed all of that is to expect too much. Jefferson was an intelligent man who set forth the stage that eventually did lead to the end of slavery, but it took time .... and a big, nasty war. Personally, I am grateful that we have the country we have today. That it came to be imperfectly is a reflection of us being human.


OH... and here is another point you sidestep. To be truly fair, you would have to compare how she was treated to how a white wife would have been treated. The truth, again, is that she was treated pretty well, given the standards of the say. Again, you want to take today's standards and apply it to what happened then. That is not a reasonable thing to do.

I mean the whole "I am OK with sexual slavery" is no more "objective" than Viceroy's evolution pole... truly. The idea of "sexual slavery" as you put forward was not even considered then as it is today. The fact is that many legal wives were essentially "sexual slaves".. not entitled to any rights. In many cases children had more rights than adult women, particularly male children. As much as I would definitely not want to have been in her position back then, (would not have wanted to live back then period!), if I had to be a woman in that time, to have been her would not have been that bad of a choice.


Are you suggesting that not freeing her was an act of kindness? Or that granting freedom to some of his slaves was misguided, or even cruel? I would disagree with that line of thought.
User avatar
Sergeant Symmetry
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby pimpdave on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:45 pm

If he was, I say we abolish the presidency in favor of a new system.
jay_a2j wrote:hey if any1 would like me to make them a signature or like an avator just let me no, my sig below i did, and i also did "panther 88" so i can do something like that for u if ud like...
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class pimpdave
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Anti Tea Party Death Squad Task Force Headquarters
Medals: 10
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Gillipig on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:56 am

pimpdave wrote:If he was, I say we abolish the presidency in favor of a new system.

Well said! I suggest the person with biggest hands is to be declared president. Large hands will make other nations leaders feel small when they shake hands with your president.
AoG for President of the World!!
I promise he will put George W. Bush to shame!
User avatar
Lieutenant Gillipig
 
Posts: 3583
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:24 pm
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (3)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:25 pm

Gillipig wrote:
pimpdave wrote:If he was, I say we abolish the presidency in favor of a new system.

Well said! I suggest the person with biggest hands is to be declared president. Large hands will make other nations leaders feel small when they shake hands with your president.


And he'd always go first when he plaed Mole in the Hole.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class jonesthecurl
 
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:42 am
Location: disused action figure warehouse
Medals: 23
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Bot Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (3)

PreviousNext

Return to Don't Panic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Metsfanmax

Login