Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

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Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Yes- Sally Hemings wasn't free to consent
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25%
No- I'm ok with sexual slavery
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45%
Kittens
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30%
 
Total votes : 44

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby chang50 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:34 am

john9blue wrote:so you're just going to keep making absolute statements using vague terminology, sym? i don't like that. in fact i think i'm going to be very explicit about your thought process here, since you aren't willing to:

SYMMETRY'S ARGUMENT:
- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.
- TJ is a UUP, therefore we should not give very much credit to his ideas.

i leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the fallacies in this line of argument. unless you disagree with any of the above, sym?


That is an almost perfect illustration of a strawman argument..
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:36 am

chang50 wrote:
john9blue wrote:so you're just going to keep making absolute statements using vague terminology, sym? i don't like that. in fact i think i'm going to be very explicit about your thought process here, since you aren't willing to:

SYMMETRY'S ARGUMENT:
- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.
- TJ is a UUP, therefore we should not give very much credit to his ideas.

i leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the fallacies in this line of argument. unless you disagree with any of the above, sym?


That is an almost perfect illustration of a strawman argument..


which is why i asked symmetry whether it was accurate or not, a luxury not afforded to me when my opponents make straw man arguments out of my positions (which happens somewhat frequently)
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:47 am

Not my line of thinking John. Chang was sharp to point out that the strawman here is yours, not mine.

- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.


These however, I can agree with.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 am

Symmetry wrote:Not my line of thinking John. Chang was sharp to point out that the strawman here is yours, not mine.

- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.


These however, I can agree with.


so it is true that you think TJ having sex with an underage slave means he must have been an untrustworthy person? even considering the environment in which he lived? if so then i don't think this thread is going to convince anyone of anything.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby xeno on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:01 am

On a related note, when do you all think girls peak in beauty?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:02 am

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Not my line of thinking John. Chang was sharp to point out that the strawman here is yours, not mine.

- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.


These however, I can agree with.


so it is true that you think TJ having sex with an underage slave means he must have been an untrustworthy person? even considering the environment in which he lived? if so then i don't think this thread is going to convince anyone of anything.


I do count rapists and slavers as untrustworthy. What kind of value system do you operate under where you thinks it's ok?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby tkr4lf on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:08 am

xeno wrote:On a related note, when do you all think girls peak in beauty?

Late teens/early twenties.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby xeno on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:09 am

tkr4lf wrote:
xeno wrote:On a related note, when do you all think girls peak in beauty?

Late teens/early twenties.

So 16ish?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:15 am

Haha, wow. I can't believe how absolutist he is. You'd think he'd stop being an avid supporter of the government--with such inflexible morals.

A draft requires the use of force for involuntarily forcing people into a particular field of labor: the military. This is essentially slavery because:

(1) no consent was given,
(2) the slave/'new recruit' is coerced into working and becomes the property of someone else/an organization,
(3) the Social Contract is a bunch of rubbish.
(4) and contracts involving coercion are not legitimate.

Therefore, Sym would have to conclude that anyone who supported any draft is untrustworthy for they are slavers and/or are abetting slavers--which makes little difference.


I wonder if Sym favors any politicians who supported a draft...
(At least the anarchists are morally sound on this one).
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:28 am

I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:43 am

Symmetry wrote:I can be pretty absolute when it comes to the enslavement and rape of kids. I finds it evil, and wrong.


But the slavery of adults is morally acceptable to you?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby MeDeFe on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:01 am

chang50 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:To claim that he was a rapist because she was 14 years old is pretty dubious considering adulthood was much earlier than it is today.

You have a marginally more convincing case with the fact she was a slave, but considering that Jefferson is known to have been a genial slave owner (versus an abusive/violent) one, the implication that this was a forcible relationship would probably be unfounded.


Genial slave owner???The very fact she was a slave is a forcible relationship,and actually adulthood as in the onset of puberty occurred much later then.


I'm going by memory here, and some things may not apply to the USA, so take the following with a grain of salt. "Adulthood" was a somewhat mixed bag back then. IIRC you were for all intents and purposes considered adult at the age of 25, and then only if you were male, but as long as your father was alive he could overrule you on quite a lot of matters if he so wished. Sex was something your parents or guardian consented to for you, it was called "marriage" and usually took place well before you had become an adult. If you went and did it before marriage you were supposed not to be found out, and definitely not get yourself or someone else pregnant.

It is arguable that a slave (much like a woman) could never be considered an adult on account of not having the rights and duties of one.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:16 am

john9blue wrote:so you're just going to keep making absolute statements using vague terminology, sym? i don't like that. in fact i think i'm going to be very explicit about your thought process here, since you aren't willing to:

SYMMETRY'S ARGUMENT:
- TJ had sex with an underage slave, therefore he must be a rapist.
- TJ is a rapist, therefore he has questionable moral character.
- TJ has QMC, therefore he is an untrustworthy and unsavory person.
- TJ is a UUP, therefore we should not give very much credit to his ideas.

i leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the fallacies in this line of argument. unless you disagree with any of the above, sym?


That's where he's going with this ("TJ was a rapist, therefore [insert anyone Symmetry disagrees with]'s views based on TJ's views are invalid"), but that doesn't mean Thomas Jefferson wasn't a rapist. He probably was (assuming he had sex with a woman who was a slave at the time). There are rarely individuals in history who don't have some baggage (for lack of a better term). That doesn't mean their ideas are invalid (to most people... Symmetry seems to think personal actions affect the validity of ideas for some reason).
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby GeneralRisk on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:46 am

Symmetry wrote:What do you think?

Sarah "Sally" Hemings (Charles City County, Virginia, circa 1773 – Charlottesville, Virginia, 1835) was an enslaved woman of mixed race owned by President Thomas Jefferson through his wife's inheritance. The youngest of six siblings by the planter John Wayles and his slave Betty Hemings, Hemings was the half-sister of Jefferson's wife Martha Wayles Skelton.[1] The Hemings' and all of Wayles' slaves were inherited by the Jeffersons a year after their marriage and were taken to Monticello. The Hemings children and their descendants were trained as domestic servants and artisans.
In 1787, Sally Hemings at the age of 14 was chosen to accompany Mary (Polly), the youngest daughter of Jefferson, to Paris to rejoin her father; the widower was serving as the United States Ambassador to France. She spent two years there. Hemings and Jefferson are believed to have begun a sexual relationship then or soon after their return to Monticello. She had a total of six children of record born into slavery; four survived to adulthood and were noted for their resemblance to Jefferson. Sally Hemings served in Jefferson's household as a domestic servant until his death.
The historical question of whether Jefferson was the father of her children has been known as the Jefferson-Hemings controversy. Following renewed historic analysis and a 1998 DNA study that found a match between the Jefferson male line and a descendant of her last son, Eston Hemings, a consensus among historians supports that the widower Jefferson fathered her son Eston Hemings and likely all her children.[2] Some historians disagree.[3]
Even though he was deeply in debt, Jefferson freed all of Sally Hemings' children: Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston, as they came of age. They were seven-eighths European in ancestry, and three of the four entered white society as adults. Their descendants identified as white.[4][5] As the historian Edmund S. Morgan has noted, "Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson’s daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, who was, of course, her niece."[6] Hemings lived her last nine years with her two younger sons in Charlottesville, and saw a grandchild born in the house her sons owned. After their mother's death in 1835, Eston and Madison Hemings migrated with their families to Chillicothe in the free state of Ohio.

It has never been proven that Thomas Jefferson ever had sex with any slave. The charge at the time was an effort to defeat Thomas Jefferson’s bid for the presidency by accusing him of what, at that time, would be considered “monstrous behavior.” Why? Because, of course, that would violate not only the laws of God, but the laws of the State of Virginia. The Times Dispatch reported: “‘By making any connection between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, you are calling him a liar and a criminal, because it was against the law to have sexual relations with slaves,’ said Jefferson descendant Matthew Mackay-Smith.” Besides, Sally Hemings was also Jefferson’s sister-in-law. He inherited the Monticello estate, and its slaves, including Sally, when both his wife and her father, who also was the father of Sally Hemings, died. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304211804577500870076728362.htmlThe Jefferson-Hemings story was sustained through the 19th century by Northern abolitionists, British critics of American democracy[of whom apparently still do so to this very day], and others. Here is another link in case you don't have a sub. to the WSJ.http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2011/0831/Thomas-Jefferson-and-Sally-Hemings-one-of-history-s-myths
Last edited by GeneralRisk on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:03 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:it's a black-and-white issue.


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