Violations of Privacy and Rights

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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:59 pm

Well, that's the problem. There is no "cannot analyze it in this particular way" because there's not much that's particular about this. For example, the definition of terrorism (and other key terms) aren't clearly defined, the process is opaque, and this is all coated in a warm, self-satisfying blanket of "national security" and "common good."
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Re: CIA Appointment

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Wait... there's more!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... EH20130313

Full Disclosure - I changed the name of the thread subject. Rather than doing a new thread every time something comes out on the apparent violation of rights, I'll just add to this thread.


ITT: Information that government organization has in database is shared with other government organizations. Privacy violation!


From the first full paragraph:

"The proposed plan represents a major step by U.S. intelligence agencies to spot and track down terrorist networks and crime syndicates..."

I don't mind the sharing of database (well, I do mind), but define for me "terrorist network" and "crime syndicate." And let me remind you that in the 1940s a terrorist network would have been defined to include all Japanese-Americans and in the 1960s and 1970s a crime syndicate would have been defined to include the Black Panthers.


If the government already has the information, I don't care how they search it. Saying "I know you have this information but you absolutely cannot analyze it in this particular way" is, to me, inane.


So then they shouldn't have the information or else there should be a process in place such that they cannot use the information without obtaining reasonable evidence. Currently the CIA can obtain the information without obtaining reasonable evidence.
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Re: CIA Appointment

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:07 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Wait... there's more!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... EH20130313

Full Disclosure - I changed the name of the thread subject. Rather than doing a new thread every time something comes out on the apparent violation of rights, I'll just add to this thread.


ITT: Information that government organization has in database is shared with other government organizations. Privacy violation!


From the first full paragraph:

"The proposed plan represents a major step by U.S. intelligence agencies to spot and track down terrorist networks and crime syndicates..."

I don't mind the sharing of database (well, I do mind), but define for me "terrorist network" and "crime syndicate." And let me remind you that in the 1940s a terrorist network would have been defined to include all Japanese-Americans and in the 1960s and 1970s a crime syndicate would have been defined to include the Black Panthers.


If the government already has the information, I don't care how they search it. Saying "I know you have this information but you absolutely cannot analyze it in this particular way" is, to me, inane.


So then they shouldn't have the information


Well, that ship has sailed apparently.

or else there should be a process in place such that they cannot use the information without obtaining reasonable evidence. Currently the CIA can obtain the information without obtaining reasonable evidence.


I don't understand this point. If we made it legal for them to collect the evidence, what sense does it make to then hamstring them by saying they cannot "use" it? And isn't that just asking for trouble anyway, since how can we really enforce them not "using" it?
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:20 am

Metsfanmax wrote:If we made it legal for them to collect the evidence, what sense does it make to then hamstring them by saying they cannot "use" it? And isn't that just asking for trouble anyway, since how can we really enforce them not "using" it?


The sense it makes is that we can protect our privacy. I apparently will not be able to convince you of the concern we all should have about the use of this information. I will attempt a couple of analogies.

Let's say Facebook has this information and can legally use it to try to sell you certian things.
Let's say illegal drug dealers have this information and can legally use it to find you and persuade you to do things for them.

There are two options, as I said. The first is to remove the information. As you've indicated, that ship has sailed. The second is to remove the ability of the CIA (or any other government entity) to use the information without first proving that the information is reasonable for them to obtain. Everything after "without" doesn't hamstring the CIA or anyone else; it merely provides a counterbalance that would work to prevent the information to be used for unwarranted purposes.

If this is not acceptable to you, then I will give up since you value security over any other rights.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:00 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:If we made it legal for them to collect the evidence, what sense does it make to then hamstring them by saying they cannot "use" it? And isn't that just asking for trouble anyway, since how can we really enforce them not "using" it?


The sense it makes is that we can protect our privacy. I apparently will not be able to convince you of the concern we all should have about the use of this information. I will attempt a couple of analogies.

Let's say Facebook has this information and can legally use it to try to sell you certian things.
Let's say illegal drug dealers have this information and can legally use it to find you and persuade you to do things for them.

There are two options, as I said. The first is to remove the information. As you've indicated, that ship has sailed. The second is to remove the ability of the CIA (or any other government entity) to use the information without first proving that the information is reasonable for them to obtain. Everything after "without" doesn't hamstring the CIA or anyone else; it merely provides a counterbalance that would work to prevent the information to be used for unwarranted purposes.

If this is not acceptable to you, then I will give up since you value security over any other rights.

You ignore the third and fourth, very real options.

facebook or Google begin by offering you "goodies" .. anything from real goods like a useful app, quicker results to searches or even a T-shirt to less tangible results like giving you "better" search results... "better" being purely subjective "results the user likes".


At first, this is a relatively free and open exchange that mostly benefits the user. A few curmudgeons may revolt and not participate. However, in time, the technology becomes so pervasive that it becomes impractical to NOT use it. I mean, I am old enough to remember when computers and the internet were not part of everyone’s daily life. Today, even many Amish have computers! It goes from being a free and open exchange to something people basically have to have to survive in the real world.

At this point, we are really past the point of retaining our information already. Even if you don’t find tons of stuff about you through a simple “Google” or “Bing” type search, have no illusions.. your information is out there to be bought by whomever wishes, essentially.

The question now is how that information will be used and by whom. Ironically, the government has the least of all reasons to search and retain information on all of us.. at least, as long as it still functions as an independent government. However, because our system is so infused with money and so based on monetary gain.. that is, people have to get LARGE sums of money to get into most public office… its inherently beholden to people who make money for a living, to business. The result is that it is business that will not just use and abuse our information, but be the instrument that instructs the government to do so, in the event it does.

I am not quite sure how to subvert that. We still do have a republic, a type of democracy. However, just looking at all of your arguments shows how deeply the “ignore any negative thing business does” has infused our society. You are all fussing over some searches to find terrorists… and ignoring that your kids will likely not be able to get simple science answers. Or rather, they will get very simplistic answers that don’t in any way condemn the status quo.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:40 am

What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:41 am

thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


In this case the information has already been gathered, so your analogy is totally false. The phone tapping and home-searching has already happened (and legally, in this case). Now the only question is whether the police can bring you to court with it.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:49 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


In this case the information has already been gathered, so your analogy is totally false. The phone tapping and home-searching has already happened (and legally, in this case). Now the only question is whether the police can bring you to court with it.


Actually, those things have not happened. The CIA has not already "tapped phones" and done "home searches." The provision in question allows the CIA to "tap phones" and do "home searching."
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:57 am

thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


Oops, sorry, having to past and write/edit in word, then past back… wind up missing things sometimes as a result.


My point is that Microsoft and Google can basically already do that. They might not get the exact totals of my bank account today, but already have enough information to deduce that if they wished. Currently, they cannot be bothered.

BUT… scenario 3 is where someone else, outside the US probably, gets that information and uses it. This is already happening. We see big names mentioned on the news, but the main reason folks like myself are not being actively targeted is just that there is little to be gained. Fast forward to a more tight political situation and issues that really need every vote, and suddenly you have some interest in my personal information. In that case, its unlikely that “the government” will have a big stake… those already in the government have much easier paths to use.


Scenario 4 is that Google or whomever sells my information, perhaps with my permission (likely implied, but possibly overt), to marketers. I do a search for, say, causes of rectal bleeding. Suddenly my inbox is filled with advertisements for hemorrhoid treatments, instructions about rectal cancer screenings, etc. A bit, erm.. rude, perhaps, but not dangerous. Now, however, fast forward to a search for various women’s issues. Let’s say that this information winds up in the hands of my employer… or just could be marketed to my employer. NOW do you care? I would. A woman who works for a Roman Catholic school might just care.

Scenario 5… is already happening, but gets even more scary. Google already says it can target searches based on previous searches. That means that Nightstrike is more likely to get conservative data, Viceroy is going to find all kinds of anti-evolution stuff. If their kids do a search for some science project, are they going to get the same information as yours or mine? Are they going to truly understand the difference? Will their teachers? (The answer to the last is already “no”, by-the-way, in many cases)
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:41 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


In this case the information has already been gathered, so your analogy is totally false. The phone tapping and home-searching has already happened (and legally, in this case). Now the only question is whether the police can bring you to court with it.


Actually, those things have not happened. The CIA has not already "tapped phones" and done "home searches." The provision in question allows the CIA to "tap phones" and do "home searching."


The analogy is still flawed. From a practical point of view, this is like if the cop at the local police station, who keeps all the files on financial crimes locked in his desk, decides to give the key to his buddy the homicide cop.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:30 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


In this case the information has already been gathered, so your analogy is totally false. The phone tapping and home-searching has already happened (and legally, in this case). Now the only question is whether the police can bring you to court with it.


Actually, those things have not happened. The CIA has not already "tapped phones" and done "home searches." The provision in question allows the CIA to "tap phones" and do "home searching."


The analogy is still flawed. From a practical point of view, this is like if the cop at the local police station, who keeps all the files on financial crimes locked in his desk, decides to give the key to his buddy the homicide cop.


Or it would be like the cop giving away information to those who claim the rights to it (e.g. CIA, FBI, etc.). And depending on their 'constraints'--whatever they may be, then a problem arises, which you've been overlooking:

"If the government already has the information, I don't care how they search it. Saying "I know you have this information but you absolutely cannot analyze it in this particular way" is, to me, inane."

Different bureaucracies face different constraints, which vary is transparency, oversight (by people or by their cheerleading Congress members), etc.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:26 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


In this case the information has already been gathered, so your analogy is totally false. The phone tapping and home-searching has already happened (and legally, in this case). Now the only question is whether the police can bring you to court with it.


Actually, those things have not happened. The CIA has not already "tapped phones" and done "home searches." The provision in question allows the CIA to "tap phones" and do "home searching."


The analogy is still flawed. From a practical point of view, this is like if the cop at the local police station, who keeps all the files on financial crimes locked in his desk, decides to give the key to his buddy the homicide cop.


Yes... and? That is illegal. Inane? Sure. Legal? Nopers.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:27 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What are the third and fourth options?

Let's imagine that a police force is permitted to collect and use any evidence it wants without asking a judge first. The police force can search your (you Player) bank accounts, it can walk into your home without knocking, it can tap your phones without a warrant. Do you care?


Oops, sorry, having to past and write/edit in word, then past back… wind up missing things sometimes as a result.


My point is that Microsoft and Google can basically already do that. They might not get the exact totals of my bank account today, but already have enough information to deduce that if they wished. Currently, they cannot be bothered.

BUT… scenario 3 is where someone else, outside the US probably, gets that information and uses it. This is already happening. We see big names mentioned on the news, but the main reason folks like myself are not being actively targeted is just that there is little to be gained. Fast forward to a more tight political situation and issues that really need every vote, and suddenly you have some interest in my personal information. In that case, its unlikely that “the government” will have a big stake… those already in the government have much easier paths to use.


Scenario 4 is that Google or whomever sells my information, perhaps with my permission (likely implied, but possibly overt), to marketers. I do a search for, say, causes of rectal bleeding. Suddenly my inbox is filled with advertisements for hemorrhoid treatments, instructions about rectal cancer screenings, etc. A bit, erm.. rude, perhaps, but not dangerous. Now, however, fast forward to a search for various women’s issues. Let’s say that this information winds up in the hands of my employer… or just could be marketed to my employer. NOW do you care? I would. A woman who works for a Roman Catholic school might just care.

Scenario 5… is already happening, but gets even more scary. Google already says it can target searches based on previous searches. That means that Nightstrike is more likely to get conservative data, Viceroy is going to find all kinds of anti-evolution stuff. If their kids do a search for some science project, are they going to get the same information as yours or mine? Are they going to truly understand the difference? Will their teachers? (The answer to the last is already “no”, by-the-way, in many cases)


No offense (because you raise valid points), but, although I'm concerned as to what Google does with their information, Google can't kill or imprison me. The federal government can, so I'm more concerned with them.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:[
No offense (because you raise valid points), but, although I'm concerned as to what Google does with their information, Google can't kill or imprison me. The federal government can, so I'm more concerned with them.

Yet....

But also, this is not limited to US players. Right now, the more common threat is loss of all your money, sometimes a house.
(seriously, as records get twisted).

However, there is nothing to stop someone from doing many other things, ranging from inserting nasty pictures on your computer to other things. (let your imagination roll.. I don't care to elaborate).

The only thing keeping us safe from such threats is that so far, those types of actions are not terribly profitable.

I am not so much worried about Google, per se, itself coming in and arranging to have me put in jail. However, google has the information that could be sold (more likely for real people with real power and/or money, of course).

Just heard, for example that the First Lady and Joe Paterno's data was publically released. It would not take much imagination to envision something much, much worse.

AND... the foundation of our rights is knowledge of those rights. Lack that knowledge, and we have no protections at all.


Either way, the government threat is rather passe.
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Re: Violations of Privacy and Rights

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:46 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:[
No offense (because you raise valid points), but, although I'm concerned as to what Google does with their information, Google can't kill or imprison me. The federal government can, so I'm more concerned with them.

Yet....

But also, this is not limited to US players. Right now, the more common threat is loss of all your money, sometimes a house.
(seriously, as records get twisted).

However, there is nothing to stop someone from doing many other things, ranging from inserting nasty pictures on your computer to other things. (let your imagination roll.. I don't care to elaborate).

The only thing keeping us safe from such threats is that so far, those types of actions are not terribly profitable.

I am not so much worried about Google, per se, itself coming in and arranging to have me put in jail. However, google has the information that could be sold (more likely for real people with real power and/or money, of course).

Just heard, for example that the First Lady and Joe Paterno's data was publically released. It would not take much imagination to envision something much, much worse.

AND... the foundation of our rights is knowledge of those rights. Lack that knowledge, and we have no protections at all.


Either way, the government threat is rather passe.


You should make another thread about threats of Google and the like, but that thread already exists.
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Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

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