Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

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Should Argentina talk/listen to the Falkland Islanders?

Yes
6
29%
Yes, but I have reservations
3
14%
I don't know
2
10%
No, but maybe under certain conditions
1
5%
No, never
7
33%
Kittens
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:31 pm

Nobody seems to be addressing the basic underlying point: the Argentine claim to the Falklands is entirely inherited from the Spanish claim, which is completely bogus. It is based on the Spaniards' FAILED colony there. If they had established a successful colony, this would be a horse of a different colour.

The Spanish Habsburgs were a degenerate insult to that ancient and noble name. They took HALF THE WORLD's WEALTH and squandered it. In under a century they went from being the world's greatest power to being a bankrupt pauper state begging for Papal alms. Somewhere along the way, they marooned some unfortunates in the Falklands, and the entire Argentine "legal claim" traces back to this fact.

It would be a non-issue if not for the fact that the welfare states of the EEC love to punish success and reward failure, and so they have recognised this Spanish non-colony as having some legal merit and are prepared to tear down the stable and prosperous British community that has endure for centuries. No sane person can think that the BLOATED NABLOBS of BRUSSELS have anything of value to say.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby MrPanzerGeneral on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:57 am

Brits are in a position of power.....The RN & the RAF could wipe the present day Argentinian Air Force & Navy offa the map, anytime, if they ever wanted to, offensively OR defensively ( with one hand tied behind their backs even.... I hazard....)... and the B.A is then always on the ground :) Argentina can't protect, nor project, it's own landward boundaries at present, let alone do it across some water.... all bluff... but come what may...we'll be willing to teach them a lesson again :)
Brazil likewise...
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:51 am

MrPanzerGeneral wrote:Brits are in a position of power.....The RN & the RAF could wipe the present day Argentinian Air Force & Navy offa the map, anytime, if they ever wanted to, offensively OR defensively ( with one hand tied behind their backs even.... I hazard....)... and the B.A is then always on the ground :) Argentina can't protect, nor project, it's own landward boundaries at present, let alone do it across some water.... all bluff... but come what may...we'll be willing to teach them a lesson again :)
Brazil likewise...


Gen. Sir Michael Jackson disagrees with you:

Adm. Sir Sandy Woodward disagrees with you:

The "Royal" Navy in 1982 had 100 ships and sent 43 to threaten the people of Argentina. It has 17 ships total today. Last summer a bunch of drunk teenagers captured the city of Birmingham from the UK government. This is why it's so important the UK negotiate a transfer instead of proceeding on its current trajectory that will lead to a war so lopsided the Queen will be serving empanadas at garden parties by the time it's over.

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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby MrPanzerGeneral on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:19 am

The U.K "retaking" the Falklands is a moot point. Argentina is in no position to launch a force to "Take" them.
The FAA no longer possess any operable air superiority fighter, and currently have no strike capability, apart from 20 odd A-4's - which 4 RAF Euro-Typhoons are easily more than a match for. Their navy too is in as much disrepair as their airforce, and is really only just managing (barely) to stay afloat. 1 R.N Sub & 1 RN Destroyer sufficient to deal with whatever the ARA could send.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:46 am

MrPanzerGeneral wrote:The U.K "retaking" the Falklands is a moot point. Argentina is in no position to launch a force to "Take" them.
The FAA no longer possess any operable air superiority fighter, and currently have no strike capability, apart from 20 odd A-4's - which 4 RAF Euro-Typhoons are easily more than a match for. Their navy too is in as much disrepair as their airforce, and is really only just managing (barely) to stay afloat. 1 R.N Sub & 1 RN Destroyer sufficient to deal with whatever the ARA could send.


There's no need for any of that. The UK no longer has aircraft carriers. It barely has a Navy. Islas Malvinas is defended by 4 planes. As Admiral Sir Sandy Woodward noted, Britain was only able to get 4 of its 135 aircraft into the air for Libya because of the decrepit state of everything.

    Step 1 - send a PCX missile from the Gallegos base to the middle of the landing strip of Mt. Pleasant, grounding the Eurofighters
    Step 2 - The End
The British government have been hilarious working with the Daily Mail to inflate their one modern DDG to the point it's now like a Borg Cube and can fight an entire war by itself. As utterly ludicrous as that sounds, people seem to be eating it up. I'd hate to be the PM when everyone realizes a Type 45 still takes 10 days to make it to the South Atlantic like mortal ships and doesn't have some Star Trek style temporal displacement that allows it to be in multiple places at once.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby MrPanzerGeneral on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:11 pm

You're delusional.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:37 pm

And so are Gen. Sir Michael Jackson and Adm. Sir Sandy Woodward?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:12 pm

So SRSLY, this is how I'd take Islas Malvinas ...

STEP 1: fire a volley of Argentina's new PCX missiles from the mainland toward the runway at Mount Pleasant, destroying the runway and confining the Eurofighters to the ground (unless they're already airborne, in which case the FAA will just have to wait a few hours for them to run out of fuel and fall out of the sky)

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STEP 2: with air defenses neutered, drop a company of paratroopers on Port Howard (pop. 20) in the western islands where there are no British troops, secure the boat dock

Image

STEP 3: calmly dock a Ro-Ro in Port Howard and unload three batteries of 155mm howitzers ... break for 2 hours to celebrate Carnival

Image

STEP 4: send a cruise ship chartered by the Brazilian Red Cross to moor off the coast of Stanley ... telephone the British Governor and inform him the entire population of Stanley has 4 hours to get aboard it

Image

STEP 5: after 4 hours, start popping off 100 high-explosive shells per hour at Stanley ... within 10 hours, 1000 shells will have hit the town, 2 for every building

Image

STEP 6: land a company of sappers on the eastern and western islands, start randomly laying mines everywhere, with no rhyme or reason

Image

STEP 7: send a press release to the Guardian ... let them know the islanders have all left by cruise ship and, if they return, the islands are now totally uninhabitable - every building has been destroyed and you can't walk 10 feet without stepping on a land mine

Image

STEP 8: the islanders are now removed from the equation - the UK government has to mobilize their population for war only for oil rights, not with the excuse of defense of the kelpers since they're gone and will never be able to return ... the Argentine embassy in London can then start handing out fifty-quid notes to local chavs to have them wander around the streets for a few hours carrying "No Blood for Oil!" signs - Julian Assange can make a speech from the balcony of the Peruvian embassy

STEP 9: + 10 days later maybe a British fleet of 12 ships shows up with no aircraft/aircraft carriers ... chugs around the islands shaking their fists at the Argentine troops from the decks of the UK's two Type 45 destroyers ... Argentine Navy stays safe and snugly moored in Buenos Aires ... New York Mercantile Exchange sets a date for opening bids in the auction of petroleum franchises in Argentine-controlled Islas Malvinas
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby crispybits on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:35 pm

This is why you're not a politican saxi

You're delusional.


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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:37 pm

I'm thinking about how the US could be factored into this, but if the Executive and/or key congress people have no strong personal ties with any English politician, then I don't see why the US would really care who controlled the Malvinas--as long as oil is being produced and traded.

Oh, "NATO obligations" might get the US involved. That possibility probably explains why ARG has yet to invade Malvinas.

What do you think, sax?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:45 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I'm thinking about how the US could be factored into this, but if the Executive and/or key congress people have no strong personal ties with any English politician, then I don't see why the US would really care who controlled the Malvinas--as long as oil is being produced and traded.

Oh, "NATO obligations" might get the US involved. That possibility probably explains why ARG has yet to invade Malvinas.

What do you think, sax?


There was an article in the Telegraph last year that said declassified files showed that Alexander Haig had suggested to Reagan they tip off the Argentine high command on British plans (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... orgia.html). In another report, Reagan called Thatcher during the final British offensive on Stanley and requested the UK immediately stop advancing and submit the matter to the Four Power (US, Brazil, Peru, Germany) arbitration committee.

That was Ronald Reagan.

Obama is the dude who had the bust of Winston Churchill taken out with the Thursday trash.

Image

Also, under Article 6 of the NATO Treaty, the US is only obligated to assist other NATO states if their territory located north of the Tropic of Cancer is attacked. The U.S. has no mutual defense obligations for attacks occurring south of the Tropic of Cancer. The U.S. specifically requested this limit in the NATO treaty so it's more than theoretical.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/off ... _17120.htm

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Last edited by saxitoxin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Fruitcake on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:53 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I'm thinking about how the US could be factored into this, but if the Executive and/or key congress people have no strong personal ties with any English politician, then I don't see why the US would really care who controlled the Malvinas--as long as oil is being produced and traded.

Oh, "NATO obligations" might get the US involved. That possibility probably explains why ARG has yet to invade Malvinas.

What do you think, sax?


There was an article in the Telegraph last year that said declassified files showed that Alexander Haig had suggested to Reagan they tip off the Argentine high command on British naval movements. In another report, Reagan called Thatcher during the final British offensive on Stanley and requested the UK immediately stop advancing and submit the matter to the Four Power (US, Brazil, Peru, Germany) arbitration committee.

That was Ronald Reagan.

Obama is the dude who had the bust of Winston Churchill taken out with the Thursday trash.


yep, we sure know who we can rely on as a friend....oh wait, we don't have any, so no change there then.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:15 pm

Wait, why'd you dimes that post about Ed Harris there?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:25 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I'm thinking about how the US could be factored into this, but if the Executive and/or key congress people have no strong personal ties with any English politician, then I don't see why the US would really care who controlled the Malvinas--as long as oil is being produced and traded.

Oh, "NATO obligations" might get the US involved. That possibility probably explains why ARG has yet to invade Malvinas.

What do you think, sax?


There was an article in the Telegraph last year that said declassified files showed that Alexander Haig had suggested to Reagan they tip off the Argentine high command on British plans (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... orgia.html). In another report, Reagan called Thatcher during the final British offensive on Stanley and requested the UK immediately stop advancing and submit the matter to the Four Power (US, Brazil, Peru, Germany) arbitration committee.

That was Ronald Reagan.

Obama is the dude who had the bust of Winston Churchill taken out with the Thursday trash.

Image

Also, under Article 6 of the NATO Treaty, the US is only obligated to assist other NATO states if their territory located north of the Tropic of Cancer is attacked. The U.S. has no mutual defense obligations for attacks occurring south of the Tropic of Cancer. The U.S. specifically requested this limit in the NATO treaty so it's more than theoretical.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/off ... _17120.htm

Image



So, if the risk of US involvement seems so low, then why doesn't ARG invade? Is it fear of international boo'ing? Are they actually capable of launching a successful attack? What constrains ARG?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:49 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I'm thinking about how the US could be factored into this, but if the Executive and/or key congress people have no strong personal ties with any English politician, then I don't see why the US would really care who controlled the Malvinas--as long as oil is being produced and traded.

Oh, "NATO obligations" might get the US involved. That possibility probably explains why ARG has yet to invade Malvinas.

What do you think, sax?


There was an article in the Telegraph last year that said declassified files showed that Alexander Haig had suggested to Reagan they tip off the Argentine high command on British plans (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... orgia.html). In another report, Reagan called Thatcher during the final British offensive on Stanley and requested the UK immediately stop advancing and submit the matter to the Four Power (US, Brazil, Peru, Germany) arbitration committee.

That was Ronald Reagan.

Obama is the dude who had the bust of Winston Churchill taken out with the Thursday trash.

Image

Also, under Article 6 of the NATO Treaty, the US is only obligated to assist other NATO states if their territory located north of the Tropic of Cancer is attacked. The U.S. has no mutual defense obligations for attacks occurring south of the Tropic of Cancer. The U.S. specifically requested this limit in the NATO treaty so it's more than theoretical.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/off ... _17120.htm

Image



So, if the risk of US involvement seems so low, then why doesn't ARG invade? Is it fear of international boo'ing? Are they actually capable of launching a successful attack? What constrains ARG?


I imagine - since the UK is undoubtedly aware of their precarious military position - a backchannel agreement has already been reached with the UK government to continue the sabre-rattling in the foreground, for the benefit of their respective populations, while hammering out the details of a gradually introduced transfer arrangement behind the scenes.

UK governments are famous for loudly parading about waving the Union flag and declaring they'll never give up on their countrymen, while brokering surrender deals behind the scenes. Tony Blair tried to sell Gibraltar to Spain at the same time he was yelling no compromise to the press, etc. A Tory government risks losing half their votes to the BNP & UKIP if they lose Malvinas on their watch; Labour has less to risk. Cameron will probably make the arrangements, Argentina will tread water, and then whenever the next election occurs the Tories lose, everything will be set to begin gradually introducing the concept of join sovereignty, and, eventually, full transfer, to the British public. (I'm sure the Queen has already been briefed on the plans; why they were in such a hurry to get Will down there for a few heroic photos. The future King needs those pics on file while he can get them; there's less opportunities for gallantry defending the Outer Hebrides from the Iceland tuna fleet.)
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