Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

[Symmetry]

To be completely fair, I don't thinks the UK should do its business through William Hague.

[saxitoxin]

To be completely fair, I don't thinks the UK should do its business through William Hague.

To be completely fair, I think the UK should do its business on William Hague.

[Symmetry]

To be completely fair, I don't thinks the UK should do its business through William Hague.

To be completely fair, I think the UK should do its business on William Hague.

A rare point of agreement.

[Symmetry]

Falkland Islands referendum: overwhelming yes to staying British

The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly for the territory to stay British in an unsurprising but still historical referendum that aims to send a defiant message to Argentina and the outside world.

Despite near zero temperatures and flurries of snow and rain, the turnout was 92% from an electorate of 1,650. All but three people voted yes to the question posed on the ballots: "Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom?"

Nobody expected anything but a landslide in a vote that the Argentinian government had dismissed as illegal. Regardless, the islanders said they were delighted at the strong show of unity at a time when the Falklands are coming under increasing pressure from Buenos Aires and its allies in South America.

"I'm very happy. Everyone has come together to express ourselves," said Kyle Biggs, who guides tourists to see penguins and battlefield sites from the 1982 war between Britain and Argentina. "I think this is massively significant. It's important to show how much we want to stay British."

After the results were announced, Biggs said, islanders celebrated late into the night despite temperatures of 3C.

In Argentina the result was dismissed with angry words by the government of President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "We must denounce this trickery that pretends to represent the popular participation of an implanted population," said Senator Daniel Filmus, a close collaborator of the president. "This publicity stunt has no validity for international law."

Disturbing stuff for the people who voted "never" above.

[saxitoxin]

Falkland Islands referendum: overwhelming yes to staying British

The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly for the territory to stay British in an unsurprising but still historical referendum that aims to send a defiant message to Argentina and the outside world.

Despite near zero temperatures and flurries of snow and rain, the turnout was 92% from an electorate of 1,650. All but three people voted yes to the question posed on the ballots: "Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom?"

Nobody expected anything but a landslide in a vote that the Argentinian government had dismissed as illegal. Regardless, the islanders said they were delighted at the strong show of unity at a time when the Falklands are coming under increasing pressure from Buenos Aires and its allies in South America.

"I'm very happy. Everyone has come together to express ourselves," said Kyle Biggs, who guides tourists to see penguins and battlefield sites from the 1982 war between Britain and Argentina. "I think this is massively significant. It's important to show how much we want to stay British."

After the results were announced, Biggs said, islanders celebrated late into the night despite temperatures of 3C.

In Argentina the result was dismissed with angry words by the government of President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "We must denounce this trickery that pretends to represent the popular participation of an implanted population," said Senator Daniel Filmus, a close collaborator of the president. "This publicity stunt has no validity for international law."

Disturbing stuff for the people who voted "never" above.

*yawn* an unsurprising and totally meaningless publicity stunt

Like Filmus correctly noted, it had no basis in international law: the London-appointed Overseer prohibited a question of independence from being placed on the ballot so the referendum was not an expression of the islanders' will as they were not permitted all the possible choices. It was, therefore, invalid. The UN has linked self-determination with the process of de-colonization. All this proved is that 1,516 of the kelpers are racist and 3 are not.

Now that this sideshow is over and they have that out of their system, it's time to double the work toward the inevitable reintegration Las Malvinas into Argentina. Forty million people demand it.

[BigBallinStalin]

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.

[Symmetry]

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.

The Argentine government actually did invade the Falklands in an attempt to bring it under military dictatorship. Unsurprisingly, this did not go down well. Rhetoric calling for the native Islanders to be under dictatorship, or be ethnically cleansed (the never vote above) is merely history repeating.

[GreecePwns]

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.

Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.

[Symmetry]

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.

Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.

And yet I have spoken with you eminently reasonably about that issue. You, of course, were trolling.

And Sym, yes I was trolling

Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled talons

[BigBallinStalin]

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.

Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.

Good idea. Even if we mention that the act of trolling itself does not invalidate one's argument, expecting Sym to engage in a rational debate would still yield high losses. Then again, seeing him squirm and twist while trying to explain his inept argument can be amusing!

[Symmetry]

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.

Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.

Good idea. Even if we mention that the act of trolling itself does not invalidate one's argument, expecting Sym to engage in a rational debate would still yield high losses. Then again, seeing him squirm and twist while trying to explain his inept argument can be amusing!

And yet my position on Cyprus is very close to GreecePwns'. His position on the Falklands, is, by his own admission, trolling.

[saxitoxin]

The battle for liberation of Malvinas is essentially like school desegregation in Alabama but in the year 2013. Britain wants an all-white volkstaat - which it enforces through race-based residency laws - while Argentina wants to incorporate Malvinas into its historically diverse, multicultural society. Fifty years from now we'll look back and shake our heads at all the luddites who opposed the re-integration of Malvinas into Argentina's national territory and compare them to George Wallace.

[saxitoxin]

The world famous Irish folk band the Wolfe Tones, in Boston right now on their North America tour, have posted a message of solidarity on their FB page:



When the English launched their war of aggression in '82, the Wolfe Tones composed a song of solidarity with the Argentine Navy and the legal Argentine claim on Malvinas.

[Symmetry]

Hardly a war of aggression. Argentina invaded and attempted to bring the Islanders under military dictatorship.

[saxitoxin]

Hardly a war of aggression. Argentina invaded and attempted to bring the Islanders under military dictatorship.

Isla San Pedro ("South Georgia Island") was spontaneously liberated by unarmed, Argentine welders. The British then began aggressive military posturing and Argentine forces were forced to land and disarm all British troops in all islands for their own safety as part of a cooling-off period. The British then went completely berzerk and declared they would go on a war rampage instead of simply talking. The U.S., Soviet Union and Vatican all asked Britain respect a truce, enter negotiations and not attempt to attack sovereign Argentine territory but pirates do what pirates do.

This is the definition of a war of aggression.

edited: welders

[Symmetry]

Hardly a war of aggression. Argentina invaded and attempted to bring the Islanders under military dictatorship.

South Georgia Island was spontaneously liberated by unarmed, Argentine fishermen. The British then began aggressive military posturing and Argentine forces had to be brought in as a preventative step to protect civilian lives. The British then went completely berzerk and decided to go on a war rampage instead of simply talking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_South_Georgia

The only British presence at Leith on 19 March was an Antarctic Survey (BAS) team, whose leader, Trefor Edwards, handed a message from London to the commander of the Buen Suceso, captain Briatore, demanding the removal of the Argentine flag and the departure of the party. At the same time, the Argentine crew had to report to the top BAS commander in Grytviken, Steve Martin. Briatore replied that the mission had the approval of the British embassy in Buenos Aires.[4]
Eventually, the Argentine captain ordered the lowering of the flag, but failed to report to Grytviken. The BAS commander sent a message to the Governor of the Falkland Islands, Rex Hunt (South Georgia being run as a dependency of the Falklands). After consulting London, Hunt was instructed to dispatch HMS Endurance to South Georgia with a detachment of 22 Royal Marines.[5][6]


ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

There had been already two other Argentine trips to South Georgia: on December 1981, on board the Argentine icebreaker ARA Almirante Irízar, when Davidoff made an inventory of the facilities;[9] and on February 1982, when an alleged commercial rival of Davidoff, bank employee Adrian Marchessi, made an unannounced visit to Leith. Marchessi assessed Leith facilities on board the Panamanian registered yacht Caiman, which had sailed out of Mar del Plata.[10] He later reported himself to Grytviken, claiming that he was part of Davidoff's scheme and giving the British authorities details of the December inspection and even of early Argentine trips during the 1970s.[11]
The failure of the Argentines to comply with the diplomatic formalities prompted Whitehall to opt for a small-scale intervention. In the meantime, a formal protest was issued by the British embassy in Buenos Aires. The Argentine Foreign Minister's response appeared to defuse the crisis; the note asserted that the Buen Suceso would soon be leaving, and that the mission had no official sanction at all.[12]
By the morning of 22 March the Buen Suceso left Leith harbour. However, in the afternoon, a BAS observation post detected the presence of Argentine personnel and passed the information to London. In consequence, the Foreign Office chose to order HMS Endurance to evacuate any Argentine personnel remaining in South Georgia.[13]


HMS Endurance at Mar del Plata naval base, during her trip to the Falklands in February 1982
The British moves met with a series of Argentine countermeasures: the corvettes ARA Drummond and ARA Granville were deployed between the Falklands and South Georgia, which would have allowed them to intercept the Endurance and remove any Argentine personnel on board. In addition, upon arrival at Leith, HMS Endurance found the Antarctic Survey ship ARA Bahía Paraíso at anchor. This vessel landed a party of 10 naval commandos picked up from South Orkney Islands.[14]

Facing the potential for military action, the Foreign Office sought some sort of compromise. Lord Carrington proposed to his counterpart, Nicanor Costa Méndez, to indulge the workers presence at Leith, given the proper documentation, which could include the stamping of temporary permissions instead of passports, a concession crucial to the Argentine position. The Argentine intention, however, was that the arrival of any of its citizens to South Georgia should follow the procedures agreed on the communications treaty of 1971. Governor Rex Hunt strongly rejected this extension of the agreement, valid only for the Falklands jurisdiction, and raised his concerns to the British Government. Costa Mendez left things in a limbo; both countries were then on the brink of conflict.[15][16]

[saxitoxin]

Hardly a war of aggression. Argentina invaded and attempted to bring the Islanders under military dictatorship.

South Georgia Island was spontaneously liberated by unarmed, Argentine fishermen. The British then began aggressive military posturing and Argentine forces had to be brought in as a preventative step to protect civilian lives. The British then went completely berzerk and decided to go on a war rampage instead of simply talking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_South_Georgia

The only British presence at Leith on 19 March was an Antarctic Survey (BAS) team, whose leader, Trefor Edwards, handed a message from London to the commander of the Buen Suceso, captain Briatore, demanding the removal of the Argentine flag and the departure of the party. At the same time, the Argentine crew had to report to the top BAS commander in Grytviken, Steve Martin. Briatore replied that the mission had the approval of the British embassy in Buenos Aires.[4]
Eventually, the Argentine captain ordered the lowering of the flag, but failed to report to Grytviken. The BAS commander sent a message to the Governor of the Falkland Islands, Rex Hunt (South Georgia being run as a dependency of the Falklands). After consulting London, Hunt was instructed to dispatch HMS Endurance to South Georgia with a detachment of 22 Royal Marines.[5][6]


ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

There had been already two other Argentine trips to South Georgia: on December 1981, on board the Argentine icebreaker ARA Almirante Irízar, when Davidoff made an inventory of the facilities;[9] and on February 1982, when an alleged commercial rival of Davidoff, bank employee Adrian Marchessi, made an unannounced visit to Leith. Marchessi assessed Leith facilities on board the Panamanian registered yacht Caiman, which had sailed out of Mar del Plata.[10] He later reported himself to Grytviken, claiming that he was part of Davidoff's scheme and giving the British authorities details of the December inspection and even of early Argentine trips during the 1970s.[11]
The failure of the Argentines to comply with the diplomatic formalities prompted Whitehall to opt for a small-scale intervention. In the meantime, a formal protest was issued by the British embassy in Buenos Aires. The Argentine Foreign Minister's response appeared to defuse the crisis; the note asserted that the Buen Suceso would soon be leaving, and that the mission had no official sanction at all.[12]
By the morning of 22 March the Buen Suceso left Leith harbour. However, in the afternoon, a BAS observation post detected the presence of Argentine personnel and passed the information to London. In consequence, the Foreign Office chose to order HMS Endurance to evacuate any Argentine personnel remaining in South Georgia.[13]


HMS Endurance at Mar del Plata naval base, during her trip to the Falklands in February 1982
The British moves met with a series of Argentine countermeasures: the corvettes ARA Drummond and ARA Granville were deployed between the Falklands and South Georgia, which would have allowed them to intercept the Endurance and remove any Argentine personnel on board. In addition, upon arrival at Leith, HMS Endurance found the Antarctic Survey ship ARA Bahía Paraíso at anchor. This vessel landed a party of 10 naval commandos picked up from South Orkney Islands.[14]

Facing the potential for military action, the Foreign Office sought some sort of compromise. Lord Carrington proposed to his counterpart, Nicanor Costa Méndez, to indulge the workers presence at Leith, given the proper documentation, which could include the stamping of temporary permissions instead of passports, a concession crucial to the Argentine position. The Argentine intention, however, was that the arrival of any of its citizens to South Georgia should follow the procedures agreed on the communications treaty of 1971. Governor Rex Hunt strongly rejected this extension of the agreement, valid only for the Falklands jurisdiction, and raised his concerns to the British Government. Costa Mendez left things in a limbo; both countries were then on the brink of conflict.[15][16]

My mistake. I changed my post from "unarmed fishermen" to "unarmed welders."

[Symmetry]

ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[saxitoxin]

ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[7]Official History of the Falklands Campaign: Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=h8jFi6 ... ds+War%22&

On the basis of a version of events written by a British knight and published by the UK/BP defence ministry? No.

[Symmetry]

ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[7]Official History of the Falklands Campaign: Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=h8jFi6 ... ds+War%22&

On the basis of a version of events written by a British knight and published by the UK/BP defence ministry? No.

That [8] you see, it's a reference. To the person you claim as an authority. Lawrence Freedman.

[saxitoxin]

ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[7]Official History of the Falklands Campaign: Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=h8jFi6 ... ds+War%22&

On the basis of a version of events written by a British knight and published by the UK/BP defence ministry? No.

That [8] you see, it's a reference. To the person you claim as an authority. Lawrence Freedman.

No, it's the person you're claiming as an authority. It's the person I'm rejecting as an impartial authority ... an employee of the UK/BP government.

[Symmetry]

If you want to claim him as a source, at least be consistent.

[saxitoxin]

If you want to claim him as a source

huh?

[Symmetry]

If you want to claim him as a source

huh?

If you're changing your take based on the evidence I posted from him, and then refusing to change your opinion based on the exact same info you cited as a source, there's little I can do.

[saxitoxin]

If you want to claim him as a source

huh?

If you're changing your take based on the evidence I posted from him, and then refusing to change your opinion based on the exact same info you cited as a source, there's little I can do.

I met you halfway and allowed your source to say they were welders instead of fishermen. Now you have to meet me halfway or I will edit my post back to say they were the fishers.

Stop orcing me.