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Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

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Should Argentina talk/listen to the Falkland Islanders?

 
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:47 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Hardly a war of aggression. Argentina invaded and attempted to bring the Islanders under military dictatorship.


South Georgia Island was spontaneously liberated by unarmed, Argentine fishermen. The British then began aggressive military posturing and Argentine forces had to be brought in as a preventative step to protect civilian lives. The British then went completely berzerk and decided to go on a war rampage instead of simply talking.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_South_Georgia

The only British presence at Leith on 19 March was an Antarctic Survey (BAS) team, whose leader, Trefor Edwards, handed a message from London to the commander of the Buen Suceso, captain Briatore, demanding the removal of the Argentine flag and the departure of the party. At the same time, the Argentine crew had to report to the top BAS commander in Grytviken, Steve Martin. Briatore replied that the mission had the approval of the British embassy in Buenos Aires.[4]
Eventually, the Argentine captain ordered the lowering of the flag, but failed to report to Grytviken. The BAS commander sent a message to the Governor of the Falkland Islands, Rex Hunt (South Georgia being run as a dependency of the Falklands). After consulting London, Hunt was instructed to dispatch HMS Endurance to South Georgia with a detachment of 22 Royal Marines.[5][6]


ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

There had been already two other Argentine trips to South Georgia: on December 1981, on board the Argentine icebreaker ARA Almirante Irízar, when Davidoff made an inventory of the facilities;[9] and on February 1982, when an alleged commercial rival of Davidoff, bank employee Adrian Marchessi, made an unannounced visit to Leith. Marchessi assessed Leith facilities on board the Panamanian registered yacht Caiman, which had sailed out of Mar del Plata.[10] He later reported himself to Grytviken, claiming that he was part of Davidoff's scheme and giving the British authorities details of the December inspection and even of early Argentine trips during the 1970s.[11]
The failure of the Argentines to comply with the diplomatic formalities prompted Whitehall to opt for a small-scale intervention. In the meantime, a formal protest was issued by the British embassy in Buenos Aires. The Argentine Foreign Minister's response appeared to defuse the crisis; the note asserted that the Buen Suceso would soon be leaving, and that the mission had no official sanction at all.[12]
By the morning of 22 March the Buen Suceso left Leith harbour. However, in the afternoon, a BAS observation post detected the presence of Argentine personnel and passed the information to London. In consequence, the Foreign Office chose to order HMS Endurance to evacuate any Argentine personnel remaining in South Georgia.[13]


HMS Endurance at Mar del Plata naval base, during her trip to the Falklands in February 1982
The British moves met with a series of Argentine countermeasures: the corvettes ARA Drummond and ARA Granville were deployed between the Falklands and South Georgia, which would have allowed them to intercept the Endurance and remove any Argentine personnel on board. In addition, upon arrival at Leith, HMS Endurance found the Antarctic Survey ship ARA Bahía Paraíso at anchor. This vessel landed a party of 10 naval commandos picked up from South Orkney Islands.[14]

Facing the potential for military action, the Foreign Office sought some sort of compromise. Lord Carrington proposed to his counterpart, Nicanor Costa Méndez, to indulge the workers presence at Leith, given the proper documentation, which could include the stamping of temporary permissions instead of passports, a concession crucial to the Argentine position. The Argentine intention, however, was that the arrival of any of its citizens to South Georgia should follow the procedures agreed on the communications treaty of 1971. Governor Rex Hunt strongly rejected this extension of the agreement, valid only for the Falklands jurisdiction, and raised his concerns to the British Government. Costa Mendez left things in a limbo; both countries were then on the brink of conflict.[15][16]
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:49 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Hardly a war of aggression. Argentina invaded and attempted to bring the Islanders under military dictatorship.


South Georgia Island was spontaneously liberated by unarmed, Argentine fishermen. The British then began aggressive military posturing and Argentine forces had to be brought in as a preventative step to protect civilian lives. The British then went completely berzerk and decided to go on a war rampage instead of simply talking.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_South_Georgia

The only British presence at Leith on 19 March was an Antarctic Survey (BAS) team, whose leader, Trefor Edwards, handed a message from London to the commander of the Buen Suceso, captain Briatore, demanding the removal of the Argentine flag and the departure of the party. At the same time, the Argentine crew had to report to the top BAS commander in Grytviken, Steve Martin. Briatore replied that the mission had the approval of the British embassy in Buenos Aires.[4]
Eventually, the Argentine captain ordered the lowering of the flag, but failed to report to Grytviken. The BAS commander sent a message to the Governor of the Falkland Islands, Rex Hunt (South Georgia being run as a dependency of the Falklands). After consulting London, Hunt was instructed to dispatch HMS Endurance to South Georgia with a detachment of 22 Royal Marines.[5][6]


ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]

There had been already two other Argentine trips to South Georgia: on December 1981, on board the Argentine icebreaker ARA Almirante Irízar, when Davidoff made an inventory of the facilities;[9] and on February 1982, when an alleged commercial rival of Davidoff, bank employee Adrian Marchessi, made an unannounced visit to Leith. Marchessi assessed Leith facilities on board the Panamanian registered yacht Caiman, which had sailed out of Mar del Plata.[10] He later reported himself to Grytviken, claiming that he was part of Davidoff's scheme and giving the British authorities details of the December inspection and even of early Argentine trips during the 1970s.[11]
The failure of the Argentines to comply with the diplomatic formalities prompted Whitehall to opt for a small-scale intervention. In the meantime, a formal protest was issued by the British embassy in Buenos Aires. The Argentine Foreign Minister's response appeared to defuse the crisis; the note asserted that the Buen Suceso would soon be leaving, and that the mission had no official sanction at all.[12]
By the morning of 22 March the Buen Suceso left Leith harbour. However, in the afternoon, a BAS observation post detected the presence of Argentine personnel and passed the information to London. In consequence, the Foreign Office chose to order HMS Endurance to evacuate any Argentine personnel remaining in South Georgia.[13]


HMS Endurance at Mar del Plata naval base, during her trip to the Falklands in February 1982
The British moves met with a series of Argentine countermeasures: the corvettes ARA Drummond and ARA Granville were deployed between the Falklands and South Georgia, which would have allowed them to intercept the Endurance and remove any Argentine personnel on board. In addition, upon arrival at Leith, HMS Endurance found the Antarctic Survey ship ARA Bahía Paraíso at anchor. This vessel landed a party of 10 naval commandos picked up from South Orkney Islands.[14]

Facing the potential for military action, the Foreign Office sought some sort of compromise. Lord Carrington proposed to his counterpart, Nicanor Costa Méndez, to indulge the workers presence at Leith, given the proper documentation, which could include the stamping of temporary permissions instead of passports, a concession crucial to the Argentine position. The Argentine intention, however, was that the arrival of any of its citizens to South Georgia should follow the procedures agreed on the communications treaty of 1971. Governor Rex Hunt strongly rejected this extension of the agreement, valid only for the Falklands jurisdiction, and raised his concerns to the British Government. Costa Mendez left things in a limbo; both countries were then on the brink of conflict.[15][16]


My mistake. I changed my post from "unarmed fishermen" to "unarmed welders."
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:55 pm

ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]


Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:57 pm

Symmetry wrote:
ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]


Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[7]Official History of the Falklands Campaign: Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=h8jFi6 ... ds+War%22&


On the basis of a version of events written by a British knight and published by the UK/BP defence ministry? No.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:08 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]


Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[7]Official History of the Falklands Campaign: Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=h8jFi6 ... ds+War%22&


On the basis of a version of events written by a British knight and published by the UK/BP defence ministry? No.


That [8] you see, it's a reference. To the person you claim as an authority. Lawrence Freedman.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:17 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
ARA Almirante Irízar, the first Argentine Navy ship to arrive at Grytviken in December 1981.
The reason for the landing of scrap metal workmen at Leith was a 1978 contract between an Argentine businessman, Constantino Davidoff, and the British company Christian Salvesen, for the scrapping of the abandoned whale factories and facilities on the island.[7] Aware of the contract, the Argentine Navy conceived of a plan to hijack Davidoff's business in South Georgia, in order to establish an undercover base on the disputed territory. The action was code named Operation Alpha.[8]


Perhaps change it to Argentinian Navy?

[7]Official History of the Falklands Campaign: Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=h8jFi6 ... ds+War%22&


On the basis of a version of events written by a British knight and published by the UK/BP defence ministry? No.


That [8] you see, it's a reference. To the person you claim as an authority. Lawrence Freedman.


No, it's the person you're claiming as an authority. It's the person I'm rejecting as an impartial authority ... an employee of the UK/BP government.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:21 pm

If you want to claim him as a source, at least be consistent.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:31 pm

Symmetry wrote:If you want to claim him as a source


huh?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:38 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:If you want to claim him as a source


huh?


If you're changing your take based on the evidence I posted from him, and then refusing to change your opinion based on the exact same info you cited as a source, there's little I can do.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:45 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:If you want to claim him as a source


huh?


If you're changing your take based on the evidence I posted from him, and then refusing to change your opinion based on the exact same info you cited as a source, there's little I can do.


I met you halfway and allowed your source to say they were welders instead of fishermen. Now you have to meet me halfway or I will edit my post back to say they were the fishers.

Stop orcing me.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:47 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:If you want to claim him as a source


huh?


If you're changing your take based on the evidence I posted from him, and then refusing to change your opinion based on the exact same info you cited as a source, there's little I can do.


I met you halfway and allowed your source to say they were welders instead of fishermen. Now you have to meet me halfway or I will edit my post back to say they were the fishers.

Stop orcing me.


I'm just talking to you. Is that so wrong?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:20 pm

An Argentinian has been elected the infallible Holy Pontiff of the Universal Church and Vicar of Jesus Christ. Pope Francisco most recently has attended events to commemorate the 1982 liberation of the Malvinas from Britain and is known for his uncompromising position in support of Argentine sovereignty.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/06 ... recognized

Pope Frank's first greeting was ¡Buenos Dias!

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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:27 pm

saxitoxin wrote:An Argentinian has been elected new Pope. Francisco most recently has attended events to commemorate the 1982 liberation of the Malvinas from Britain.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/06 ... recognized



BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (JTA) -- Jewish soldiers will be recognized for their service during the Falklands War and the anti-Semitism they suffered will be acknowledged.

DAIA, the Jewish political umbrella in Argentina, will host the ceremony on Thursday for the soldiers who fought in the war 30 years ago. The archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, confirmed his presence at the event. Representatives of various religions, foreign diplomats, legislators and leaders of political parties also are participating.

“I was insulted as a Jew," Silvio Katz, an Argentina army veteran, told JTA. "Our superiors told the other soldiers that the Jewish soldiers would betray them in the combat. I was tortured. I was forced to put my hands, legs and sometimes head in cold water in the cold climate of the islands. They told me that this punishment was because I was a Jew.”
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:34 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:An Argentinian has been elected new Pope. Francisco most recently has attended events to commemorate the 1982 liberation of the Malvinas from Britain.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/06 ... recognized



BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (JTA) -- Jewish soldiers will be recognized for their service during the Falklands War and the anti-Semitism they suffered will be acknowledged.

DAIA, the Jewish political umbrella in Argentina, will host the ceremony on Thursday for the soldiers who fought in the war 30 years ago. The archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, confirmed his presence at the event. Representatives of various religions, foreign diplomats, legislators and leaders of political parties also are participating.

“I was insulted as a Jew," Silvio Katz, an Argentina army veteran, told JTA. "Our superiors told the other soldiers that the Jewish soldiers would betray them in the combat. I was tortured. I was forced to put my hands, legs and sometimes head in cold water in the cold climate of the islands. They told me that this punishment was because I was a Jew.”


Nice, extract all the tabloid bits and leave the key theme out.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby crispybits on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:37 pm

Well the rest is

Victor Garelik, DAIA's executive director in charge of media relations, told JTA that this is the first event to repudiate anti-Semitic acts suffered by Jewish soldiers during the war, and "we are going to give each of them a diploma in which we express our gratitude for their effort."

The war began on April 2, 1982 when Argentinian forces invaded the Falkland/Malvinas Islands, controlled by Great Britain. Some 649 Argentinian military personnel, 255 British military personnel and three Falkland Islanders died during the 74 days of the conflict. Argentina surrendered on June 14, 1982.
Argentina was ruled by a military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983.

In April, the AMIA Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires held an event to recognize the Jewish veterans of the Falklands/Malvinas War.


Which still doesn't back up your claim that it was an event to commemorate the "liberation of the Malvinas", in fact if anything the underlined part refutes it even more strongly....
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:37 pm

crispybits wrote:Well the rest is

Victor Garelik, DAIA's executive director in charge of media relations, told JTA that this is the first event to repudiate anti-Semitic acts suffered by Jewish soldiers during the war, and "we are going to give each of them a diploma in which we express our gratitude for their effort."

The war began on April 2, 1982 when Argentinian forces invaded the Falkland/Malvinas Islands, controlled by Great Britain. Some 649 Argentinian military personnel, 255 British military personnel and three Falkland Islanders died during the 74 days of the conflict. Argentina surrendered on June 14, 1982.
Argentina was ruled by a military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983.

In April, the AMIA Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires held an event to recognize the Jewish veterans of the Falklands/Malvinas War.


Which stilld oesn;t back up your claim that it was an event to commemorate the "liberation of the malvinas", in fact if anything the underlined part refutes it even more strongly....


"Jewish soldiers will be recognized for their service during the Malvinas War"
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby crispybits on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:38 pm

Yep - to recognise the service of a small group of mistreated soldiers, not to celebrate a liberation....
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:39 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:An Argentinian has been elected new Pope. Francisco most recently has attended events to commemorate the 1982 liberation of the Malvinas from Britain.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/06 ... recognized



BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (JTA) -- Jewish soldiers will be recognized for their service during the Falklands War and the anti-Semitism they suffered will be acknowledged.

DAIA, the Jewish political umbrella in Argentina, will host the ceremony on Thursday for the soldiers who fought in the war 30 years ago. The archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, confirmed his presence at the event. Representatives of various religions, foreign diplomats, legislators and leaders of political parties also are participating.

“I was insulted as a Jew," Silvio Katz, an Argentina army veteran, told JTA. "Our superiors told the other soldiers that the Jewish soldiers would betray them in the combat. I was tortured. I was forced to put my hands, legs and sometimes head in cold water in the cold climate of the islands. They told me that this punishment was because I was a Jew.”


Nice, extract all the tabloid bits and leave the key theme out.


It's your link.

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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:41 pm

New Pope in April 2010:

"The islands are ours."
http://www.mdzol.com/nota/200733/

It doesn't get more unambiguous than that. (sorry in Spanish only, cannot find English version)
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Re:

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:45 pm

Symmetry wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.


Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.


And yet I have spoken with you eminently reasonably about that issue. You, of course, were trolling.

GreecePwns wrote:And Sym, yes I was trolling


Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled talons


I was trolling about one specific comment I made, and you turned it into me trolling that entire debate? =D>

To make things clear for everyone, the "trolling" aspect of my comments was my unwillingness to research some constitutional amendment Argentina made in 1994 claiming the Islands or something. Really an irrelevant part of the debate at the time.

Symmetry still has yet to answer to my summary of the history of the islands (albeit simplistically) in the following post, which damns entirely the idea that Britain owns the islands:

UK Gov't: Hey Luis Vernet, you can go to Falkland Islands.
Vernet: Will you protect me until you start your own territory?
UK Gov't: Okay, yeah, whatever. We don't really plan on going there or anything, but we'll do that. Sure. Okay.
United Provinces Gov't: Hey, Vernet. I hear you're going to las Malvinas. Wanna go for us?
Vernet: Sure.
---5 years later+, Vernet has settled there and even had a child----
United Provinces Gov't: Hey, Vernet. Wanna be governor of las Malvinas?
Vernet: Sure
UK Gov't: Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. That's our island now.
US Gov't: Yeah, that's our ally's island.
United Provinces Gov't: Nope. We've been here for a while now. It's too late to claim it.
US Gov't: Oh yeah?
---Vernet sinks US ships near las Malvinas, significant damage done to the settlement---
UK Gov't: Oh yeah?
---UK takes the settlement---
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Are you trolling now?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:07 pm

Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:10 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?


Now that the infallible leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics has said the Malvinas are Argentine, will Tony Blair convert yet again and, if so, to what? Wicca?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:19 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?


Now that the infallible leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics has said the Malvinas are Argentine, will Tony Blair convert yet again and, if so, to what? Wicca?


Now that's funny.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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