Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

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Should Argentina talk/listen to the Falkland Islanders?

Yes
6
29%
Yes, but I have reservations
3
14%
I don't know
2
10%
No, but maybe under certain conditions
1
5%
No, never
7
33%
Kittens
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:06 pm

Dukasaur wrote:The Spanish established a colony. Pathetically mismanaged, it soon fell apart. The English came and started a colony. Intelligently managed, it has thrived for hundreds of years.


Yes, that is the colonialist viewpoint.

    - Kenya wasn't smart enough to invent the automobile. The British came along and then Kenya had lots of automobiles. Britain has a legal right to Kenya.
    - Indians were too dumb to export tea. The British came along and then India exported lots of tea. Britain has a legal right to India.
    - Irish were too drunk to do whatever it is Irish do. The British came along and then Ireland started doing all sorts of the stuff they do. Britain has a legal right to Ireland.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:11 pm

You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.
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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:24 pm

2dimes wrote:You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.


I disagree if we consider the following: the sax-analogies help to outline the implicit reasoning of "White Man's Burden," which has become a foundation from which intervention into other countries in various forms is justified. For example, one could make the case that the Falklanders should not receive sovereignty because they would be unable to save themselves from the bloody talons of Argentina.

This sounds reasonable until we recall the implications of a mutual defense pact between the UK and the Falklanders, which would obliterate the standing of that White Man's Burden argument. The US has such an (in)formal agreement with the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and others. One substitute/complementary service for a mutual defense pact would be basing military troops there (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, NATO in Turkey, etc.). These measures serve as a threat deterrent to other interventionist countries, and for decades have worked exceedingly well.

But why doesn't the UK follow such a plan?
(Because it does not wish to grant the Falklands their sovereignty. Instead, the UK and its economic interests seek to profit from the opportunities of maintaining significant control over that region's resources. In short, the UK desires to maintain its colonizing power over the Falklands).
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:28 pm

Would a preemptive obliteration of Argentine be ok?
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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:56 pm

2dimes wrote:Would a preemptive obliteration of Argentine be ok?


If you're a warmongering neocon, then sure!

Step right up Dubya 2dimes Obama!
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Prior to the war in Islas Malvinas, let us recall how much Britain cared about the security of the population and how much welfare the islanders eagerly accepted from Argentina -

    1970
    The Falkland Islands Co. - a London-based fishing corporation - withdrew its supply ship to Montevideo, which cut-off the islanders from receiving mail service. Britain told the islanders it was not economically feasible for them to continue to receive mail.

    1971
    At the request of the World Postal Union, the Argentine Air Force began a weekly mail flight (at no cost) using a float plane (Malvinas had no airport at the time), to Islas Malvinas to supply the islanders with mail so they would not become the most isolated place on Earth. The RAF had previously refused a similar request from the WPU. Argentina also provides free medevac flights to Buenos Aires for ill islanders.

    1973
    Argentine Air Force began to take its Albatross long-range amphibians out-of-service and informed the UK it would no longer be able to take care of the islanders.The islanders petitioned London to build them an airport. UK: "that's not economically feasible." The islanders petitioned Buenos Aires to build them an airport. Argentina agreed to continue to send welfare payments to the islanders, out of goodwill, and paid for construction of a rough airstrip. Continues operating free postal and medevac flights.

    1978
    Argentina and the local government jointly fund construction of Port Stanley Airport. Britain is invited but doesn't bother to send any representatives to the opening ceremony of the airport. The airport, instead, is ceremonially opened by the Governor of the "Falklands" and the Vice-President of Argentina who flies in for the event.
    Image

    1981
    The UK passes the British Nationalities Act, which strips the "Falklanders" of British citizenship.

This was not a thriving, economically self-sustaining outpost. This was a patch of dirt inhabited by a group of people who were barely hanging on and utterly dependent on Argentine charity to survive.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:13 pm

I fancy myself more a wee Curtis Lemay without massive amounts of equipment to provide death from the sky.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:21 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:The Spanish established a colony. Pathetically mismanaged, it soon fell apart. The English came and started a colony. Intelligently managed, it has thrived for hundreds of years.


Yes, that is the colonialist viewpoint.

    - Kenya wasn't smart enough to invent the automobile. The British came along and then Kenya had lots of automobiles. Britain has a legal right to Kenya.
    - Indians were too dumb to export tea. The British came along and then India exported lots of tea. Britain has a legal right to India.
    - Irish were too drunk to do whatever it is Irish do. The British came along and then Ireland started doing all sorts of the stuff they do. Britain has a legal right to Ireland.

The key difference, of course, is that Kenya, India, and Ireland all had indigenous populations that were conquered to carry on the colonial enterprise.

The Falklands were completely uninhabited.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:28 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:The Spanish established a colony. Pathetically mismanaged, it soon fell apart. The English came and started a colony. Intelligently managed, it has thrived for hundreds of years.


Yes, that is the colonialist viewpoint.

    - Kenya wasn't smart enough to invent the automobile. The British came along and then Kenya had lots of automobiles. Britain has a legal right to Kenya.
    - Indians were too dumb to export tea. The British came along and then India exported lots of tea. Britain has a legal right to India.
    - Irish were too drunk to do whatever it is Irish do. The British came along and then Ireland started doing all sorts of the stuff they do. Britain has a legal right to Ireland.

The key difference, of course, is that Kenya, India, and Ireland all had indigenous populations that were conquered to carry on the colonial enterprise.

The Falklands were completely uninhabited.


Got it.

Devon Island, though claimed by Canada, is completely uninhabited. You would have no objection if Russia seized it. For that matter, pretty much most of the northern half of Canada is up for grabs.

Image
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:58 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
2dimes wrote:You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.


I disagree if we consider the following: the sax-analogies help to outline the implicit reasoning of "White Man's Burden," which has become a foundation from which intervention into other countries in various forms is justified. For example, one could make the case that the Falklanders should not receive sovereignty because they would be unable to save themselves from the bloody talons of Argentina.

This sounds reasonable until we recall the implications of a mutual defense pact between the UK and the Falklanders, which would obliterate the standing of that White Man's Burden argument. The US has such an (in)formal agreement with the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and others. One substitute/complementary service for a mutual defense pact would be basing military troops there (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, NATO in Turkey, etc.). These measures serve as a threat deterrent to other interventionist countries, and for decades have worked exceedingly well.

But why doesn't the UK follow such a plan?
(Because it does not wish to grant the Falklands their sovereignty. Instead, the UK and its economic interests seek to profit from the opportunities of maintaining significant control over that region's resources. In short, the UK desires to maintain its colonizing power over the Falklands).


They haven't asked for Independence.
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Re: Re:

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:29 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
2dimes wrote:You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.


I disagree if we consider the following: the sax-analogies help to outline the implicit reasoning of "White Man's Burden," which has become a foundation from which intervention into other countries in various forms is justified. For example, one could make the case that the Falklanders should not receive sovereignty because they would be unable to save themselves from the bloody talons of Argentina.

This sounds reasonable until we recall the implications of a mutual defense pact between the UK and the Falklanders, which would obliterate the standing of that White Man's Burden argument. The US has such an (in)formal agreement with the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and others. One substitute/complementary service for a mutual defense pact would be basing military troops there (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, NATO in Turkey, etc.). These measures serve as a threat deterrent to other interventionist countries, and for decades have worked exceedingly well.

But why doesn't the UK follow such a plan?
(Because it does not wish to grant the Falklands their sovereignty. Instead, the UK and its economic interests seek to profit from the opportunities of maintaining significant control over that region's resources. In short, the UK desires to maintain its colonizing power over the Falklands).


They haven't asked for Independence.


Then they will need to satisfy themselves speaking to foreign governments through their legal representative, the Crown and its officers. Alberta is satisfied talking to Japan via the Crown. Wales is satisfied talking to El Salvador via the Crown. Western Australia is satisfied talking to Saudi Arabia via the Crown.

The "Falkland Islands" insists they're so unique and special that the last 400 years of diplomatic principal be turned on its head just for them, failing which they're going to take their ball and go home? How gauche.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:35 pm

What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?


Argentina is absolutely willing to talk to them through their legal representative, the British Crown.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:46 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?


Argentina is absolutely willing to talk to them through their legal representative, the British Crown.


Ridiculous, may as well ask that Canada do its business through William Hague.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:41 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?


Argentina is absolutely willing to talk to them through their legal representative, the British Crown.


Ridiculous, may as well ask that Canada do its business through William Hague.


That makes no sense. Argentina deals with the people of Canada through the Canadian Crown and its officer, John Baird.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:46 pm

To be completely fair, I don't thinks the UK should do its business through William Hague.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:47 pm

Symmetry wrote:To be completely fair, I don't thinks the UK should do its business through William Hague.


To be completely fair, I think the UK should do its business on William Hague.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:50 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:To be completely fair, I don't thinks the UK should do its business through William Hague.


To be completely fair, I think the UK should do its business on William Hague.


A rare point of agreement.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:05 am

Falkland Islands referendum: overwhelming yes to staying British

The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly for the territory to stay British in an unsurprising but still historical referendum that aims to send a defiant message to Argentina and the outside world.

Despite near zero temperatures and flurries of snow and rain, the turnout was 92% from an electorate of 1,650. All but three people voted yes to the question posed on the ballots: "Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom?"

Nobody expected anything but a landslide in a vote that the Argentinian government had dismissed as illegal. Regardless, the islanders said they were delighted at the strong show of unity at a time when the Falklands are coming under increasing pressure from Buenos Aires and its allies in South America.

"I'm very happy. Everyone has come together to express ourselves," said Kyle Biggs, who guides tourists to see penguins and battlefield sites from the 1982 war between Britain and Argentina. "I think this is massively significant. It's important to show how much we want to stay British."

After the results were announced, Biggs said, islanders celebrated late into the night despite temperatures of 3C.

In Argentina the result was dismissed with angry words by the government of President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "We must denounce this trickery that pretends to represent the popular participation of an implanted population," said Senator Daniel Filmus, a close collaborator of the president. "This publicity stunt has no validity for international law."


Disturbing stuff for the people who voted "never" above.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:45 am

Symmetry wrote:Falkland Islands referendum: overwhelming yes to staying British

The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly for the territory to stay British in an unsurprising but still historical referendum that aims to send a defiant message to Argentina and the outside world.

Despite near zero temperatures and flurries of snow and rain, the turnout was 92% from an electorate of 1,650. All but three people voted yes to the question posed on the ballots: "Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom?"

Nobody expected anything but a landslide in a vote that the Argentinian government had dismissed as illegal. Regardless, the islanders said they were delighted at the strong show of unity at a time when the Falklands are coming under increasing pressure from Buenos Aires and its allies in South America.

"I'm very happy. Everyone has come together to express ourselves," said Kyle Biggs, who guides tourists to see penguins and battlefield sites from the 1982 war between Britain and Argentina. "I think this is massively significant. It's important to show how much we want to stay British."

After the results were announced, Biggs said, islanders celebrated late into the night despite temperatures of 3C.

In Argentina the result was dismissed with angry words by the government of President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "We must denounce this trickery that pretends to represent the popular participation of an implanted population," said Senator Daniel Filmus, a close collaborator of the president. "This publicity stunt has no validity for international law."


Disturbing stuff for the people who voted "never" above.


*yawn* an unsurprising and totally meaningless publicity stunt

Like Filmus correctly noted, it had no basis in international law: the London-appointed Overseer prohibited a question of independence from being placed on the ballot so the referendum was not an expression of the islanders' will as they were not permitted all the possible choices. It was, therefore, invalid. The UN has linked self-determination with the process of de-colonization. All this proved is that 1,516 of the kelpers are racist and 3 are not.

Now that this sideshow is over and they have that out of their system, it's time to double the work toward the inevitable reintegration Las Malvinas into Argentina. Forty million people demand it.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:07 pm

Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:37 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.


The Argentine government actually did invade the Falklands in an attempt to bring it under military dictatorship. Unsurprisingly, this did not go down well. Rhetoric calling for the native Islanders to be under dictatorship, or be ethnically cleansed (the never vote above) is merely history repeating.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:41 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.


Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.
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Postby Symmetry on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:50 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.


Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.


And yet I have spoken with you eminently reasonably about that issue. You, of course, were trolling.

GreecePwns wrote:And Sym, yes I was trolling


Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled talons
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:14 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.


Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.


Good idea. Even if we mention that the act of trolling itself does not invalidate one's argument, expecting Sym to engage in a rational debate would still yield high losses. Then again, seeing him squirm and twist while trying to explain his inept argument can be amusing!
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