Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

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Should Argentina talk/listen to the Falkland Islanders?

Yes
6
29%
Yes, but I have reservations
3
14%
I don't know
2
10%
No, but maybe under certain conditions
1
5%
No, never
7
33%
Kittens
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:06 pm

Dukasaur wrote:The Spanish established a colony. Pathetically mismanaged, it soon fell apart. The English came and started a colony. Intelligently managed, it has thrived for hundreds of years.


Yes, that is the colonialist viewpoint.

    - Kenya wasn't smart enough to invent the automobile. The British came along and then Kenya had lots of automobiles. Britain has a legal right to Kenya.
    - Indians were too dumb to export tea. The British came along and then India exported lots of tea. Britain has a legal right to India.
    - Irish were too drunk to do whatever it is Irish do. The British came along and then Ireland started doing all sorts of the stuff they do. Britain has a legal right to Ireland.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:11 pm

You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.
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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:24 pm

2dimes wrote:You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.


I disagree if we consider the following: the sax-analogies help to outline the implicit reasoning of "White Man's Burden," which has become a foundation from which intervention into other countries in various forms is justified. For example, one could make the case that the Falklanders should not receive sovereignty because they would be unable to save themselves from the bloody talons of Argentina.

This sounds reasonable until we recall the implications of a mutual defense pact between the UK and the Falklanders, which would obliterate the standing of that White Man's Burden argument. The US has such an (in)formal agreement with the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and others. One substitute/complementary service for a mutual defense pact would be basing military troops there (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, NATO in Turkey, etc.). These measures serve as a threat deterrent to other interventionist countries, and for decades have worked exceedingly well.

But why doesn't the UK follow such a plan?
(Because it does not wish to grant the Falklands their sovereignty. Instead, the UK and its economic interests seek to profit from the opportunities of maintaining significant control over that region's resources. In short, the UK desires to maintain its colonizing power over the Falklands).
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:28 pm

Would a preemptive obliteration of Argentine be ok?
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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:56 pm

2dimes wrote:Would a preemptive obliteration of Argentine be ok?


If you're a warmongering neocon, then sure!

Step right up Dubya 2dimes Obama!
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Prior to the war in Islas Malvinas, let us recall how much Britain cared about the security of the population and how much welfare the islanders eagerly accepted from Argentina -

    1970
    The Falkland Islands Co. - a London-based fishing corporation - withdrew its supply ship to Montevideo, which cut-off the islanders from receiving mail service. Britain told the islanders it was not economically feasible for them to continue to receive mail.

    1971
    At the request of the World Postal Union, the Argentine Air Force began a weekly mail flight (at no cost) using a float plane (Malvinas had no airport at the time), to Islas Malvinas to supply the islanders with mail so they would not become the most isolated place on Earth. The RAF had previously refused a similar request from the WPU. Argentina also provides free medevac flights to Buenos Aires for ill islanders.

    1973
    Argentine Air Force began to take its Albatross long-range amphibians out-of-service and informed the UK it would no longer be able to take care of the islanders.The islanders petitioned London to build them an airport. UK: "that's not economically feasible." The islanders petitioned Buenos Aires to build them an airport. Argentina agreed to continue to send welfare payments to the islanders, out of goodwill, and paid for construction of a rough airstrip. Continues operating free postal and medevac flights.

    1978
    Argentina and the local government jointly fund construction of Port Stanley Airport. Britain is invited but doesn't bother to send any representatives to the opening ceremony of the airport. The airport, instead, is ceremonially opened by the Governor of the "Falklands" and the Vice-President of Argentina who flies in for the event.
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    1981
    The UK passes the British Nationalities Act, which strips the "Falklanders" of British citizenship.

This was not a thriving, economically self-sustaining outpost. This was a patch of dirt inhabited by a group of people who were barely hanging on and utterly dependent on Argentine charity to survive.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:13 pm

I fancy myself more a wee Curtis Lemay without massive amounts of equipment to provide death from the sky.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:21 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:The Spanish established a colony. Pathetically mismanaged, it soon fell apart. The English came and started a colony. Intelligently managed, it has thrived for hundreds of years.


Yes, that is the colonialist viewpoint.

    - Kenya wasn't smart enough to invent the automobile. The British came along and then Kenya had lots of automobiles. Britain has a legal right to Kenya.
    - Indians were too dumb to export tea. The British came along and then India exported lots of tea. Britain has a legal right to India.
    - Irish were too drunk to do whatever it is Irish do. The British came along and then Ireland started doing all sorts of the stuff they do. Britain has a legal right to Ireland.

The key difference, of course, is that Kenya, India, and Ireland all had indigenous populations that were conquered to carry on the colonial enterprise.

The Falklands were completely uninhabited.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:28 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:The Spanish established a colony. Pathetically mismanaged, it soon fell apart. The English came and started a colony. Intelligently managed, it has thrived for hundreds of years.


Yes, that is the colonialist viewpoint.

    - Kenya wasn't smart enough to invent the automobile. The British came along and then Kenya had lots of automobiles. Britain has a legal right to Kenya.
    - Indians were too dumb to export tea. The British came along and then India exported lots of tea. Britain has a legal right to India.
    - Irish were too drunk to do whatever it is Irish do. The British came along and then Ireland started doing all sorts of the stuff they do. Britain has a legal right to Ireland.

The key difference, of course, is that Kenya, India, and Ireland all had indigenous populations that were conquered to carry on the colonial enterprise.

The Falklands were completely uninhabited.


Got it.

Devon Island, though claimed by Canada, is completely uninhabited. You would have no objection if Russia seized it. For that matter, pretty much most of the northern half of Canada is up for grabs.

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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:58 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
2dimes wrote:You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.


I disagree if we consider the following: the sax-analogies help to outline the implicit reasoning of "White Man's Burden," which has become a foundation from which intervention into other countries in various forms is justified. For example, one could make the case that the Falklanders should not receive sovereignty because they would be unable to save themselves from the bloody talons of Argentina.

This sounds reasonable until we recall the implications of a mutual defense pact between the UK and the Falklanders, which would obliterate the standing of that White Man's Burden argument. The US has such an (in)formal agreement with the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and others. One substitute/complementary service for a mutual defense pact would be basing military troops there (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, NATO in Turkey, etc.). These measures serve as a threat deterrent to other interventionist countries, and for decades have worked exceedingly well.

But why doesn't the UK follow such a plan?
(Because it does not wish to grant the Falklands their sovereignty. Instead, the UK and its economic interests seek to profit from the opportunities of maintaining significant control over that region's resources. In short, the UK desires to maintain its colonizing power over the Falklands).


They haven't asked for Independence.
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Re: Re:

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:29 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
2dimes wrote:You know I find it helps if you make analogies exaggerated. Those totally logical points are working against you here Sax.


I disagree if we consider the following: the sax-analogies help to outline the implicit reasoning of "White Man's Burden," which has become a foundation from which intervention into other countries in various forms is justified. For example, one could make the case that the Falklanders should not receive sovereignty because they would be unable to save themselves from the bloody talons of Argentina.

This sounds reasonable until we recall the implications of a mutual defense pact between the UK and the Falklanders, which would obliterate the standing of that White Man's Burden argument. The US has such an (in)formal agreement with the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and others. One substitute/complementary service for a mutual defense pact would be basing military troops there (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, NATO in Turkey, etc.). These measures serve as a threat deterrent to other interventionist countries, and for decades have worked exceedingly well.

But why doesn't the UK follow such a plan?
(Because it does not wish to grant the Falklands their sovereignty. Instead, the UK and its economic interests seek to profit from the opportunities of maintaining significant control over that region's resources. In short, the UK desires to maintain its colonizing power over the Falklands).


They haven't asked for Independence.


Then they will need to satisfy themselves speaking to foreign governments through their legal representative, the Crown and its officers. Alberta is satisfied talking to Japan via the Crown. Wales is satisfied talking to El Salvador via the Crown. Western Australia is satisfied talking to Saudi Arabia via the Crown.

The "Falkland Islands" insists they're so unique and special that the last 400 years of diplomatic principal be turned on its head just for them, failing which they're going to take their ball and go home? How gauche.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:35 pm

What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?


Argentina is absolutely willing to talk to them through their legal representative, the British Crown.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:46 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?


Argentina is absolutely willing to talk to them through their legal representative, the British Crown.


Ridiculous, may as well ask that Canada do its business through William Hague.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:41 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What's diplomatic about refusing to talk to the people you claim to want to govern?


Argentina is absolutely willing to talk to them through their legal representative, the British Crown.


Ridiculous, may as well ask that Canada do its business through William Hague.


That makes no sense. Argentina deals with the people of Canada through the Canadian Crown and its officer, John Baird.
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