Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

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Should Argentina talk/listen to the Falkland Islanders?

Yes
6
29%
Yes, but I have reservations
3
14%
I don't know
2
10%
No, but maybe under certain conditions
1
5%
No, never
7
33%
Kittens
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:37 pm

crispybits wrote:Well the rest is

Victor Garelik, DAIA's executive director in charge of media relations, told JTA that this is the first event to repudiate anti-Semitic acts suffered by Jewish soldiers during the war, and "we are going to give each of them a diploma in which we express our gratitude for their effort."

The war began on April 2, 1982 when Argentinian forces invaded the Falkland/Malvinas Islands, controlled by Great Britain. Some 649 Argentinian military personnel, 255 British military personnel and three Falkland Islanders died during the 74 days of the conflict. Argentina surrendered on June 14, 1982.
Argentina was ruled by a military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983.

In April, the AMIA Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires held an event to recognize the Jewish veterans of the Falklands/Malvinas War.


Which stilld oesn;t back up your claim that it was an event to commemorate the "liberation of the malvinas", in fact if anything the underlined part refutes it even more strongly....


"Jewish soldiers will be recognized for their service during the Malvinas War"
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby crispybits on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:38 pm

Yep - to recognise the service of a small group of mistreated soldiers, not to celebrate a liberation....
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:39 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:An Argentinian has been elected new Pope. Francisco most recently has attended events to commemorate the 1982 liberation of the Malvinas from Britain.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/06 ... recognized



BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (JTA) -- Jewish soldiers will be recognized for their service during the Falklands War and the anti-Semitism they suffered will be acknowledged.

DAIA, the Jewish political umbrella in Argentina, will host the ceremony on Thursday for the soldiers who fought in the war 30 years ago. The archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, confirmed his presence at the event. Representatives of various religions, foreign diplomats, legislators and leaders of political parties also are participating.

“I was insulted as a Jew," Silvio Katz, an Argentina army veteran, told JTA. "Our superiors told the other soldiers that the Jewish soldiers would betray them in the combat. I was tortured. I was forced to put my hands, legs and sometimes head in cold water in the cold climate of the islands. They told me that this punishment was because I was a Jew.”


Nice, extract all the tabloid bits and leave the key theme out.


It's your link.

Jewish veterans of Falklands War to be feted, anti-Semitism to be acknowledged
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:41 pm

New Pope in April 2010:

"The islands are ours."
http://www.mdzol.com/nota/200733/

It doesn't get more unambiguous than that. (sorry in Spanish only, cannot find English version)
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Re:

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:45 pm

Symmetry wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I love that move! It's like Turkey invading Cyprus, implanting a large population, and then holding a referendum.


Symmetry already equated the reversal of outright theft with ethnic cleansing earlier, so its no use talking about the Cyprus issue with him. Of course, he's free to explain this bizarre logic and he'll definitely get a response to it so long as he's not going to face the issue with head firmly planted in sand.


And yet I have spoken with you eminently reasonably about that issue. You, of course, were trolling.

GreecePwns wrote:And Sym, yes I was trolling


Imperialistic Argentina once more extends its soiled talons


I was trolling about one specific comment I made, and you turned it into me trolling that entire debate? =D>

To make things clear for everyone, the "trolling" aspect of my comments was my unwillingness to research some constitutional amendment Argentina made in 1994 claiming the Islands or something. Really an irrelevant part of the debate at the time.

Symmetry still has yet to answer to my summary of the history of the islands (albeit simplistically) in the following post, which damns entirely the idea that Britain owns the islands:

UK Gov't: Hey Luis Vernet, you can go to Falkland Islands.
Vernet: Will you protect me until you start your own territory?
UK Gov't: Okay, yeah, whatever. We don't really plan on going there or anything, but we'll do that. Sure. Okay.
United Provinces Gov't: Hey, Vernet. I hear you're going to las Malvinas. Wanna go for us?
Vernet: Sure.
---5 years later+, Vernet has settled there and even had a child----
United Provinces Gov't: Hey, Vernet. Wanna be governor of las Malvinas?
Vernet: Sure
UK Gov't: Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. That's our island now.
US Gov't: Yeah, that's our ally's island.
United Provinces Gov't: Nope. We've been here for a while now. It's too late to claim it.
US Gov't: Oh yeah?
---Vernet sinks US ships near las Malvinas, significant damage done to the settlement---
UK Gov't: Oh yeah?
---UK takes the settlement---
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Are you trolling now?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:07 pm

Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:10 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?


Now that the infallible leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics has said the Malvinas are Argentine, will Tony Blair convert yet again and, if so, to what? Wicca?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:19 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?


Now that the infallible leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics has said the Malvinas are Argentine, will Tony Blair convert yet again and, if so, to what? Wicca?


Now that's funny.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:22 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?


The Falklands! :D
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Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:26 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you trolling now?


What's your stance on the ownership issue?


Of Cyprus or the Falklands?


The Falklands! :D


It should be decided by the people.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:02 pm

I might agree with that, but holding the "should" aside, how are such matters settled in the real world of geopolitics?

And given those constraints, what would you say is the correct set of moves?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:09 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I might agree with that, but holding the "should" aside, how are such matters settled in the real world of geopolitics?

And given those constraints, what would you say is the correct set of moves?


An interesting question. I would say that it must begin with recognition of the Islands' people and their rights.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:24 pm

How far should that recognition of those people and their rights be extended? To answer this, let's use a simplistic IR theory to analyze the nation-states which are directly involved:

(1a) Should the UK grant the Falklands full sovereignty? (i.e. 100% recognition),
(1b) or should the UK grant them something less than full sovereignty (e.g. status quo).

(2) Depending on the answer to #1, ARG's response will vary. If the Falklands don't have full sovereignty (if 1b), then ARG must go to the group which retains ultimate discretion, i.e. the UK.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:26 pm

Symmetry wrote:An interesting question. I would say that it must begin with recognition of the Islands' people and their rights.


#Malvinas #Kelpers nobody denied your British nationality, just we claim that the sovereignty of the islands is from Argentina.
https://twitter.com/EmilianoKemero/stat ... 4610334720


Fair solution. Argentina recognizes the islanders nationality as British. Britain recognizes the island territory as Argentine.

All rights are respected.

No one has a right to determine what nation their property is inside. When Hong Kong was reintegrated into China, European residents had the opportunity to keep their British nationality and their property, unmolested. And Argentina has extended the same offer to the kelpers upon the reintegration of Malvinas.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:29 pm

I'd be ok with full sovereignty, if they chose it.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:39 pm

Symmetry wrote:I'd be ok with full sovereignty, if they chose it.


So would I.

Malvinas have a population of about 3,000. The world's smallest country has a population of 10,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... population) and is at least in close proximity to friendly nations with whom it cooperates.

So, after independence, when a fishing shipping is in distress 20 miles off coast, where is the rescue helicopter coming from? When an islander needs more than a general check-up or basic first aid, what hospital do they go to? When an outlaw whaling ship crewed by 30 armed men docks in Stanley, where are the police to keep them from tearing up the town? When a resident gets arrested in Italy, where is the embassy to provide him consular aid?

Independence would end almost as soon as it began, with accession to Argentina. But, unlike the status quo, it's at least not a delaying tactic.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:45 pm

saxitoxin wrote:Malvinas have a population of about 3,000. The world's smallest country has a population of 10,000


Vatican is rocking in at 836. Or 793 by your own source
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:29 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:How far should that recognition of those people and their rights be extended? To answer this, let's use a simplistic IR theory to analyze the nation-states which are directly involved:

(1a) Should the UK grant the Falklands full sovereignty? (i.e. 100% recognition),
(1b) or should the UK grant them something less than full sovereignty (e.g. status quo).

(2) Depending on the answer to #1, ARG's response will vary. If the Falklands don't have full sovereignty (if 1b), then ARG must go to the group which retains ultimate discretion, i.e. the UK.

I'd be ok with full sovereignty, if they chose it.


Same here, but since that is not the case--and since the UK does not seem intent on letting that happen, what do?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:35 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:How far should that recognition of those people and their rights be extended? To answer this, let's use a simplistic IR theory to analyze the nation-states which are directly involved:

(1a) Should the UK grant the Falklands full sovereignty? (i.e. 100% recognition),
(1b) or should the UK grant them something less than full sovereignty (e.g. status quo).

(2) Depending on the answer to #1, ARG's response will vary. If the Falklands don't have full sovereignty (if 1b), then ARG must go to the group which retains ultimate discretion, i.e. the UK.

I'd be ok with full sovereignty, if they chose it.


Same here, but since that is not the case--and since the UK does not seem intent on letting that happen, what do?


Talk to the people you wish to govern.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:00 pm

A respectable ideal, but (1) ARG can only engage in legitimate diplomacy through the UK, and (2) the UK seems adverse to the risk of enabling fuller sovereignty to the Falklands--since the UK favors its economic and militaristic goals more than enabling the self-determination of the Falklands to bloom.

So, now what?
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:04 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:A respectable ideal, but (1) ARG can only engage in legitimate diplomacy through the UK, and (2) the UK seems adverse to the risk of enabling fuller sovereignty to the Falklands--since the UK favors its economic and militaristic goals more than enabling the self-determination of the Falklands to bloom.

So, now what?


Talk to the people you wish to govern.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:26 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:A respectable ideal, but (1) ARG can only engage in legitimate diplomacy through the UK, and (2) the UK seems adverse to the risk of enabling fuller sovereignty to the Falklands--since the UK favors its economic and militaristic goals more than enabling the self-determination of the Falklands to bloom.

So, now what?


Talk to the people you wish to govern.


You keep saying that.

Argentina doesn't want to govern those people. They want the territory and will take it with or without people on it. The people can stay or go at their leisure and keep or dispose of their private property as they see fit. Argentina is a nation of laws that respects private property. It's not some banana republic.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:37 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:A respectable ideal, but (1) ARG can only engage in legitimate diplomacy through the UK, and (2) the UK seems adverse to the risk of enabling fuller sovereignty to the Falklands--since the UK favors its economic and militaristic goals more than enabling the self-determination of the Falklands to bloom.

So, now what?


Talk to the people you wish to govern.


Haha, Sym, you'd be good for philosophy/theology, but not politics/political science. :P

We both want an ideal outcome, but given the constraints, our means are curbed from the ideal.
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