Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:17 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:If this is your reasoning for supporting mandatory helmet/seatbelt laws, I expect you to likewise support mandatory diet laws, mandatory eugenics programs, and mandatory prophylactic laws. All of these things contribute to the "higher health insurance premiums" and medical expenses being paid with "taxpayers' funds."

You're confusing a sensible law (drunk driving, e.g.) with an enforced money draw (seat belt laws). I shouldn't have to wear a seat belt or helmet if I don't want to. If I crash my bike and become disabled, I or my family must pay the costs. If I had free healthcare then your argument would be valid, but as it stands the only person that pays is me (legally and morally). The fact that health insurance, a program that has ruined health care in the U.S., decides to increase their premiums has nothing to do with me, because 1) insurance is voluntary, and 2) I've lived almost my entire life without health insurance. Because you wish to buy into the scam of insurance has nothing to do with me, and I shouldn't have to accommodate your lifestyle through enforced programs.

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PREACH ON BROTHER!

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do helmet laws interfere with a person’s freedom to choose whether to wear a helmet?

Yes. Many laws restrict people’s freedom to perform behaviors judged contrary to the public good. These include drunk driving laws, cellphone use laws, and infectious disease quarantine laws, to name a few. Courts usually uphold such laws as important to the nation’s well-being.
Notice a slight distinction between the cases they present and helmet laws? Like maybe how all of those behaviors directly impact others?


Yes they do, but look at all these other bad things that have laws against them!

I'm surprised they didn't add "murder and pedophilia" to the list.

Also, "important to the nation's well-being" is not the standard. The standard is "compelling state interest." Big, humongous difference.

Fucking CDC. BRING ON THE ZOMBIES!
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby crispybits on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Sod the financials, if I'm driving and through no fault of my own hit a cyclist wearing a helmet and he is badly injured but recovers, that will have a very different effect on me than if, through no fault of my own, I hit a cyclist not wearing a helmet and he dies. If nothing else because at least I can try and ease any (undeserved) guilt I may feel to someone who is still alive afterwards, but there's nothing I can do for someone who has died. We read occasionally about people who have killed people completely accidentally who struggle with that for the rest of their lives, with the fact that it has a profound effect on them.

Wearing a helmet while cycling is hardly an infringement on freedom any more than people having to wear clothes in shopping malls. To claim that it's "big bad government taking away my freedom!" is just plain ridiculous.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby AAFitz on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:29 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:can we vote gillipig off the forum?

AAFitz can go first I reckon.


Yeah, seems like this was a bad thread for both of them.
I liked how fitz seamlessly went from accusing Tails of being old and stubborn to being young and inexperienced.

Btw. didn't see this on the CDC website. Is the reduction in no. of people using bikes because they won't wear helmets taken into account?

i.e. if we make it mandatory that you strap a pink dildo to your forehead while riding a bike I'm gonna bet that bike accidents are going to significantly drop. But probably not because the dildo makes you safer.

Oh, and for the record, the Q&A on the CDC website is complete bullshit.
Do helmet laws interfere with a person’s freedom to choose whether to wear a helmet?

Yes. Many laws restrict people’s freedom to perform behaviors judged contrary to the public good. These include drunk driving laws, cellphone use laws, and infectious disease quarantine laws, to name a few. Courts usually uphold such laws as important to the nation’s well-being.

Notice a slight distinction between the cases they present and helmet laws? Like maybe how all of those behaviors directly impact others?

If a motorcyclist chooses not to wear a helmet, does it only affect him?

No, not if the rider crashes. Unhelmeted riders injured in a crash have substantially higher healthcare costs than helmeted riders. When the rider is insured, these costs are passed on to others in the form of higher health insurance premiums. Unhelmeted riders are more likely to be uninsured than other riders. When the riders are uninsured, their medical expenses may be paid for using taxpayers’ funds.

Oh cool. So then if I'm insured I can ride without a helmet, correct ?
Also, when is McDonals's becoming illegal? Coke taxed like nicotine? No? Hmm, that's odd, almost like there might be a double standard there. Nah, that couldn't be it.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other regarding these laws, but this bullshit peddling really gets on my nerves. It smells way too much of "reefer madness" campaigns.


Sorry, its you that should leave. Using the appropriate safety gear on public roads is just a standard thing to do.

You can compare it to a glass of coke all you want, but its utterly ridiculous. Further, there are many substances that are illegal for McDonalds to sell, because eating them, is just that dangerous.

You are actually the one with the double standard, and I understand your philosophy on the situation, but in reality, using publicly maintained and installed streets and sidewalks, comes with a responsibility to use them safely.

On your own ranch, it would be an infringement of your rights. In public areas, its simply your choice to follow the rules or not.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:48 pm

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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby Lootifer on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:11 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:If this is your reasoning for supporting mandatory helmet/seatbelt laws, I expect you to likewise support mandatory diet laws, mandatory eugenics programs, and mandatory prophylactic laws. All of these things contribute to the "higher health insurance premiums" and medical expenses being paid with "taxpayers' funds."

Diet and prophylactic laws would be unenforcable; thus it doesnt make sense for them to be laws. I do however very much support government campaigns that educate and promote the use of healthy lifestyles and use of contreception (read: spending money on convincing people to not be fat and have unwanted pregnancies).

Eugenics is slightly different; its a grey/sliding scale in terms of ethics; telling someone they are too fat and should go on a diet is one thing, telling someone they cant have kids because their genes are a detriment to society is, for me, probably one bridge too far.

Tangent: I see democracy as needing to intervene here (and to me should intervene only on this kind of case by case basis rather than the two horse charade we currently use): This is something we should vote on as a population and decide where, along this grey scale, we should set our ethical limits.

You're confusing a sensible law (drunk driving, e.g.) with an enforced money draw (seat belt laws). I shouldn't have to wear a seat belt or helmet if I don't want to. If I crash my bike and become disabled, I or my family must pay the costs. If I had free healthcare then your argument would be valid, but as it stands the only person that pays is me (legally and morally). The fact that health insurance, a program that has ruined health care in the U.S., decides to increase their premiums has nothing to do with me, because 1) insurance is voluntary, and 2) I've lived almost my entire life without health insurance. Because you wish to buy into the scam of insurance has nothing to do with me, and I shouldn't have to accommodate your lifestyle through enforced programs.

Once again I shall state that I really think freedom for the sake of freedom is stupid. Just put your fucking helmet on.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby Frigidus on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 pm

Jesus, there are actually people opposed to bike helmet laws.

Edit:
crispybits wrote:Wearing a helmet while cycling is hardly an infringement on freedom any more than people having to wear clothes in shopping malls.


I was trying to think of a comparable complaint that is obviously ludicrous, but I couldn't come up with a good one. Thank you crispybits.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:26 pm

crispybits wrote:Sod the financials, if I'm driving and through no fault of my own hit a cyclist wearing a helmet and he is badly injured but recovers, that will have a very different effect on me than if, through no fault of my own, I hit a cyclist not wearing a helmet and he dies. If nothing else because at least I can try and ease any (undeserved) guilt I may feel to someone who is still alive afterwards, but there's nothing I can do for someone who has died. We read occasionally about people who have killed people completely accidentally who struggle with that for the rest of their lives, with the fact that it has a profound effect on them.

Wearing a helmet while cycling is hardly an infringement on freedom any more than people having to wear clothes in shopping malls. To claim that it's "big bad government taking away my freedom!" is just plain ridiculous.


If you're so concerned, then drive more carefully and at lower speeds. That's your choice to do so.

Other than that, I find no compelling case to impose your standard of concern onto everyone else. Furthermore, why would a law induce more concern? What effects would it have on individual decision-making?

If anything, a helmet makes the bicyclist safer, so if you hit them, "Hey! good thing they had their helmet! Now I don't feel so bad!"


The analogy of wearing clothes in public isn't valid because not wearing a helmet is not at all offensive to one's visual senses. Exposing your dick to kids at the mall is not at all similar to exposing your flowing mane of hair while riding a bike/bicycle.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:31 pm

Lootifer wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:If this is your reasoning for supporting mandatory helmet/seatbelt laws, I expect you to likewise support mandatory diet laws, mandatory eugenics programs, and mandatory prophylactic laws. All of these things contribute to the "higher health insurance premiums" and medical expenses being paid with "taxpayers' funds."

Diet and prophylactic laws would be unenforcable; thus it doesnt make sense for them to be laws. I do however very much support government campaigns that educate and promote the use of healthy lifestyles and use of contreception (read: spending money on convincing people to not be fat and have unwanted pregnancies).

Eugenics is slightly different; its a grey/sliding scale in terms of ethics; telling someone they are too fat and should go on a diet is one thing, telling someone they cant have kids because their genes are a detriment to society is, for me, probably one bridge too far.


All it takes is further conditioning and enforcement by the state to reach those conclusions--and have the majority satisfied with them.


Lootifer wrote:Tangent: I see democracy as needing to intervene here (and to me should intervene only on this kind of case by case basis rather than the two horse charade we currently use): This is something we should vote on as a population and decide where, along this grey scale, we should set our ethical limits.


Agreed, but politicians and a loud, insensible minority are relentless.

I'd rather have the scale set at lower levels--than at State or Federal. It would be much more representative of each democratic process and the general desires of the constituents.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:31 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:can we vote gillipig off the forum?

AAFitz can go first I reckon.


Yeah, seems like this was a bad thread for both of them.
I liked how fitz seamlessly went from accusing Tails of being old and stubborn to being young and inexperienced.

Btw. didn't see this on the CDC website. Is the reduction in no. of people using bikes because they won't wear helmets taken into account?

i.e. if we make it mandatory that you strap a pink dildo to your forehead while riding a bike I'm gonna bet that bike accidents are going to significantly drop. But probably not because the dildo makes you safer.



Oh, and for the record, the Q&A on the CDC website is complete bullshit.
Do helmet laws interfere with a person’s freedom to choose whether to wear a helmet?

Yes. Many laws restrict people’s freedom to perform behaviors judged contrary to the public good. These include drunk driving laws, cellphone use laws, and infectious disease quarantine laws, to name a few. Courts usually uphold such laws as important to the nation’s well-being.

Notice a slight distinction between the cases they present and helmet laws? Like maybe how all of those behaviors directly impact others?

If a motorcyclist chooses not to wear a helmet, does it only affect him?

No, not if the rider crashes. Unhelmeted riders injured in a crash have substantially higher healthcare costs than helmeted riders. When the rider is insured, these costs are passed on to others in the form of higher health insurance premiums. Unhelmeted riders are more likely to be uninsured than other riders. When the riders are uninsured, their medical expenses may be paid for using taxpayers’ funds.

Oh cool. So then if I'm insured I can ride without a helmet, correct ?
Also, when is McDonals's becoming illegal? Coke taxed like nicotine? No? Hmm, that's odd, almost like there might be a double standard there. Nah, that couldn't be it.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other regarding these laws, but this bullshit peddling really gets on my nerves. It smells way too much of "reefer madness" campaigns.



I support your valid criticism of the CDC statistics and your Pink Dildo Policy.

AAFitz has dug in his heels, which doesn't overcome this problem in the statistical analysis.
( AoG's summary of AAFitz's stance is more succinct)
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:37 pm

I think the moral of the story here, is not to involve the internet in your thought thinking. Since it'll just make you angry, or fall in love, and probably both with AOG.


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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby laughingcavalier on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:44 pm

Generally I approve of the nanny state but I am angrily anti- bike helmet laws. Even tho I always wear mine. Even tho my daughter has a scar on her head from the time she fell off without a helmet on. Don't they f***ING well know cycling is good for your health? Are they trying to mark.us out as lycra- wearing helmet-headed plonkers so as to discourage folks from getting on their bikes?!! Grrrr.
The real need is for better safety features on modern cars. Every 4x4 should come fitted with 3' spikes on the inside pointed at the driver. We would see a dramatic improvement in driving standards overnight.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:52 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I think the moral of the story here, is not to involve the internet in your thought thinking. Since it'll just make you angry, or fall in love, and probably both with AOG.


--Andy


You're just jealous because of other people's manes of flowing hair--as they ride down the streets of your neighborhood.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby Lootifer on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:58 pm

laughingcavalier wrote:The real need is for better safety features on modern cars. Every 4x4 should come fitted with 3' spikes on the inside pointed at the driver. We would see a dramatic improvement in driving standards overnight.

I CONCUR!
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby crispybits on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:22 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:Sod the financials, if I'm driving and through no fault of my own hit a cyclist wearing a helmet and he is badly injured but recovers, that will have a very different effect on me than if, through no fault of my own, I hit a cyclist not wearing a helmet and he dies. If nothing else because at least I can try and ease any (undeserved) guilt I may feel to someone who is still alive afterwards, but there's nothing I can do for someone who has died. We read occasionally about people who have killed people completely accidentally who struggle with that for the rest of their lives, with the fact that it has a profound effect on them.

Wearing a helmet while cycling is hardly an infringement on freedom any more than people having to wear clothes in shopping malls. To claim that it's "big bad government taking away my freedom!" is just plain ridiculous.


If you're so concerned, then drive more carefully and at lower speeds. That's your choice to do so.

Other than that, I find no compelling case to impose your standard of concern onto everyone else. Furthermore, why would a law induce more concern? What effects would it have on individual decision-making?

If anything, a helmet makes the bicyclist safer, so if you hit them, "Hey! good thing they had their helmet! Now I don't feel so bad!"

The analogy of wearing clothes in public isn't valid because not wearing a helmet is not at all offensive to one's visual senses. Exposing your dick to kids at the mall is not at all similar to exposing your flowing mane of hair while riding a bike/bicycle.


If I'm doing 50mph in a 60mph limit I can think of several roads within 5 miles of my house where a cyclist could come out of nowhere with no notice from a side track and I wouldn't be able to stop in time. I would have been driving perfectly reasonably and the blame for the accident would be entirely with the cyclist. Would that make everything peachy if the cyclist died? Hardly.

Also, I can think of several ways of dressing that are highly offensive to one's visual senses, and to the visual senses of everyone else. "Because I think I look like an idiot" is not a valid objection to not wearing something that could prevent your death when partaking in a risky activity on a public highway. There are good reasons for rules and regulations on the roads, and cyclists shouldn't be any more immune to that than motorcyclists having to wear a helmet, or drivers having to wear a seatbelt.
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Re: Bike helmet laws shown to reduce number of injuries

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:16 pm

to hell with being the last post!
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