Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:23 pm

ah.. just ready to shut down and saw this thread. Will post later, if its still up (but may have to be next week.. I am going to be pretty busy in the next few days).
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby tzor on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:38 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Item #1: Organizing for Action


So why is O for A a "fundamental flaw?"

(There is a minor flaw; you really need not to recycle acronyms; Obama's original campaign machine was "Organizing for America." It's way too easy to get the two confused and thus people would assume that this is Obama's election/reelection organization. But that's probably on purpose. Still if I had a dine for every reporter who has made this mistake and called it "America" I would have enough money to ... well ride the subway at least, perhaps get a train ride into the city off peak.)
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:49 am

tzor wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Item #1: Organizing for Action


So why is O for A a "fundamental flaw?"

(There is a minor flaw; you really need not to recycle acronyms; Obama's original campaign machine was "Organizing for America." It's way too easy to get the two confused and thus people would assume that this is Obama's election/reelection organization. But that's probably on purpose. Still if I had a dine for every reporter who has made this mistake and called it "America" I would have enough money to ... well ride the subway at least, perhaps get a train ride into the city off peak.)


What?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby tzor on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:56 am

If the thread is "Fundamental Flaws" you need to actually list "flaws" ... as in things that hinder them from getting elections. O for A is pretty effective at getting that uniform message across; I can't see how it is a flaw.

Apparently I was right to be confused; Organizing for America became Organizing for Action. But if Organizing for America was founded by the Democratic National Committee, how can the comical mouth of Sauron (aka the Jay Carney Show) claim that this group is "independent?" (Oh that's right, because he lies all the time, but this is not "Fundamental Flaws of the White House" so I'll let that slide.)
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby spurgistan on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:07 am

Night Strike wrote:Rep John Fleming R-LA: "President to House GOP: federal government is not a family; balancing budget not important"


The first of those two sentences is objectively true. The second is a matter of opinion, though I would add the words "right now, while we're still barely teetering on the brink of recession" to the end.
Mr_Adams wrote:You, sir, are an idiot.


Timminz wrote:By that logic, you eat babies.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:56 am

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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:58 am

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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:16 am

thegreekdog wrote:I wonder if there are any big medical device companies in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Indiana.

Minnesota - Meditronic Inc.
Pennsylvania - AmerisourceBergen Corporation
Indiana - Eli Lilly

PLAYER57832 wrote:More correctly, the Republicans want to cut anything that benefits average Americans, but not the things that benefit their big business cronies... and they will do this while proclaiming "family values" and "low taxes"... never mind that its their policies that turned our country into a deficit hog, at the expense of our futures.

Your point?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:18 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:2. Trying to Deep-Six Obamacare

But now that they feel its future is protected and it’s safe from repeal, Democrats are becoming more vocal about parts of the law that they want changed or eliminated — even kids’ dental coverage. Four Senate Democrats — Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken of Minnesota, Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — are co-sponsoring a Republican bill to repeal the law’s medical-device tax. Ten House Democrats are co-sponsoring a bill to repeal the law’s Independent Payment Advisory Board, a controversial panel that is designed to keep Medicare spending in check.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/a ... 88717.html



Who doesn't like political compromise?
[/tongue-in-cheek]

This is one of the main problems with any position supporting public policy X. Public policies must go through this political process--where exemptions are made and the reasonable parts of the policy are resisted and sometimes removed (e.g. that advisory board, that medical-device tax).

This is one of many avenues where the favored policies of well-intended voters lead to bad outcomes.

So, according to you, the fact that Democrats are pushing for things that people want is just inherently bad? Or what is it you are trying to say?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:27 am

The fundamental flaw of the Democratic Party is that they are, like Republicans, way too beholden to big donors. Whenever the focus is on primarily money, then its easy to forget the purpose of that money, of government and to ignore what really needs to be done.


Another flaw is that while there was a time when the Democrats sort of represented the party of average people, protecting the base of this country, they have allowed themselves to be silent on too many issues.

They have allowed Republicans to literally change the definitions of words, to change how things are even understand. Instead of saying that denying Homosexuals basic rights is oppressing people who don't think the same, they allow the Republicans to term it "family values."

Similar, Abortion became "choice" even though NO ONE (sane) really and truly "jsut choooses" to have an abortion. As long as the pretense is put forward, folks don't have to acknowledge that there are real and true reasons why some children are just better off not being born... under ANY religious belief and that sometimes "advanced medical care" doesn't really mean "advanced life" , but means that man instead of God is deciding that these children simply "must" live... regardless of what that "life" entails.

Democrats have specifically NOT Pushed for various environmental protections that we ened to have ANY future. And have let Republicans gut our previously mostly wonderful educational system (particularly university system) in favor of a system that boosts the worst schools to barely OK, but keeps the rest down as well.


There is more, but the flaws of the Democratic Party are too many to list in one thread, pretty much like the flaws in the Republicans are too many.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:25 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I wonder if there are any big medical device companies in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Indiana.

Minnesota - Meditronic Inc.
Pennsylvania - AmerisourceBergen Corporation
Indiana - Eli Lilly

PLAYER57832 wrote:More correctly, the Republicans want to cut anything that benefits average Americans, but not the things that benefit their big business cronies... and they will do this while proclaiming "family values" and "low taxes"... never mind that its their policies that turned our country into a deficit hog, at the expense of our futures.

Your point?


My point is you're being dumb.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby tzor on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:30 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:So, according to you, the fact that Democrats are pushing for things that people want is just inherently bad? Or what is it you are trying to say?


Commercials exist not to give "people what they want" but to convince people that "they want it." Democrats don't really push for things that people want, they convince people to want what they give them.

(Of course that's not a "flaw" in the party; that's why the party wins!)

The fact that every policy almost always has the opposite effect of what is advertised ... doesn't really matter. The opposite effect is blamed on something else.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:09 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I wonder if there are any big medical device companies in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Indiana.

Minnesota - Meditronic Inc.
Pennsylvania - AmerisourceBergen Corporation
Indiana - Eli Lilly

PLAYER57832 wrote:More correctly, the Republicans want to cut anything that benefits average Americans, but not the things that benefit their big business cronies... and they will do this while proclaiming "family values" and "low taxes"... never mind that its their policies that turned our country into a deficit hog, at the expense of our futures.

Your point?


My point is you're being dumb.


Nice try, but simply saying you disagree doesn't mean I am "dumb".
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:11 pm

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:So, according to you, the fact that Democrats are pushing for things that people want is just inherently bad? Or what is it you are trying to say?


Commercials exist not to give "people what they want" but to convince people that "they want it." Democrats don't really push for things that people want, they convince people to want what they give them.

(Of course that's not a "flaw" in the party; that's why the party wins!)

The fact that every policy almost always has the opposite effect of what is advertised ... doesn't really matter. The opposite effect is blamed on something else.

Actually, I would say that the Democrats have NOT been doing that great a job of either having a good meassage OR of convincing anyone. Their only real bonus of late is that the Republicans are so blatantly and patently wrong, folks are willing to take almost any viable alternative.

I mean, it doesn't take a genius to understand that homosexual marriages won't exactly threaten the security of the country.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:19 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:2. Trying to Deep-Six Obamacare

But now that they feel its future is protected and it’s safe from repeal, Democrats are becoming more vocal about parts of the law that they want changed or eliminated — even kids’ dental coverage. Four Senate Democrats — Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken of Minnesota, Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — are co-sponsoring a Republican bill to repeal the law’s medical-device tax. Ten House Democrats are co-sponsoring a bill to repeal the law’s Independent Payment Advisory Board, a controversial panel that is designed to keep Medicare spending in check.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/a ... 88717.html



Who doesn't like political compromise?
[/tongue-in-cheek]

This is one of the main problems with any position supporting public policy X. Public policies must go through this political process--where exemptions are made and the reasonable parts of the policy are resisted and sometimes removed (e.g. that advisory board, that medical-device tax).

This is one of many avenues where the favored policies of well-intended voters lead to bad outcomes.

So, according to you, the fact that Democrats are pushing for things that people want is just inherently bad? Or what is it you are trying to say?


They pass Bill X and with it, some means of paying for it, then some of the very Democrats who passed bill X are seeking ways to remove some of those means for paying for it. If they're successful, then all they've done is spent more money and then removed some of the means to pay for it.

That would be extremely stupid in any business, but with government it makes total sense. Most voters don't understand how this works, and if they do, they don't care because they still want their government goodies.
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