New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby crispybits on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:08 am

And a little humour from the Daily Mash:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 3031462640
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby chang50 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:20 am

crispybits wrote:And a little humour from the Daily Mash:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 3031462640


Hilarious and sad because it touches a raw nerve in Catholicism's recent shameful past.I don't know which is worse the widespread paedophilia and cover ups of the guilty or the complicity with Fascism.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby crispybits on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:24 am

It's not just complicity, by definition the religion is fascist itself. It's hardly a surprise that it finds like-minded types to share afternoon coffee and cake with.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:03 am

The fact that he is calling himself "Francis" gives one hope.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:28 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:The fact that he is calling himself "Francis" gives one hope.


I'm not hopeful. Of the various papal candidates, I think he was the worst choice (or second worst choice). I'm not saying we needed to have an African pope for the first time in 1,500 years. I'm saying we needed to have a more liberal pope (at least a little bit). I thought they would go back to that after Benedict, but apparently not.

crispybits wrote:It's not just complicity, by definition the religion is fascist itself. It's hardly a surprise that it finds like-minded types to share afternoon coffee and cake with.


History shmistory...

chang50 wrote: don't know which is worse the widespread paedophilia and cover ups


This is worse.

chang50 wrote:the complicity with Fascism.


Because this is non-existent. History shmistory...
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:10 am

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The fact that he is calling himself "Francis" gives one hope.


I'm not hopeful. Of the various papal candidates, I think he was the worst choice (or second worst choice). I'm not saying we needed to have an African pope for the first time in 1,500 years. I'm saying we needed to have a more liberal pope (at least a little bit). I thought they would go back to that after Benedict, but apparently not.


I have hope, but I think that expecting the church to go immediately more liberal would be doing too much, too soon.
What gives me hope is that if he truly does take the church back to real fundamentals of caring about one's brother and poverty, it will begin to set the stage where those other issues can be considered.

Ultimately, liberalism is really just about putting your care for other people above structure or rules, looking for real answers from almost any source (not talking political liberalism which as we have discussed is often just left wing dictating). That is actually the very change Christ brought to the Jewish faith. You see that point over and over in Christ's teachings, whether it is healing on the sabbath or saying that Mary Magdelene was right to listen to his words instead of just helping with the dishes.

The vow to poverty is getting a lot of attention. It can be a very meaningful stance, or it can be a kind of arrogance, even competition. Sort of "praying on the street corner" instead of in private.

What I find interesting is things like his chastising priests who refused to baptise children of single mothers, and the way in which he apparently chastized them... as I understand it that they were putting rules and their own perceived [false] piety above people and serving God truly.

Anyway, time will tell.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:13 am

crispybits wrote:It's not just complicity, by definition the religion is fascist itself. It's hardly a surprise that it finds like-minded types to share afternoon coffee and cake with.

No more than your idea that anyone with faith is obviously not thinking straight.

No single idea is fascism, fascism is about not allowing opposition. Most modern Christians are no less willing to let others be than atheists.

The article was humerous, and largely because it did have just enough truth in it to be painful.. but expanded. Trying to paint is as anything else is beneath you crispy.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:43 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The fact that he is calling himself "Francis" gives one hope.


I'm not hopeful. Of the various papal candidates, I think he was the worst choice (or second worst choice). I'm not saying we needed to have an African pope for the first time in 1,500 years. I'm saying we needed to have a more liberal pope (at least a little bit). I thought they would go back to that after Benedict, but apparently not.


I have hope, but I think that expecting the church to go immediately more liberal would be doing too much, too soon.
What gives me hope is that if he truly does take the church back to real fundamentals of caring about one's brother and poverty, it will begin to set the stage where those other issues can be considered.

Ultimately, liberalism is really just about putting your care for other people above structure or rules, looking for real answers from almost any source (not talking political liberalism which as we have discussed is often just left wing dictating). That is actually the very change Christ brought to the Jewish faith. You see that point over and over in Christ's teachings, whether it is healing on the sabbath or saying that Mary Magdelene was right to listen to his words instead of just helping with the dishes.

The vow to poverty is getting a lot of attention. It can be a very meaningful stance, or it can be a kind of arrogance, even competition. Sort of "praying on the street corner" instead of in private.

What I find interesting is things like his chastising priests who refused to baptise children of single mothers, and the way in which he apparently chastized them... as I understand it that they were putting rules and their own perceived [false] piety above people and serving God truly.

Anyway, time will tell.


I've never thought the Catholic Church got away from helping the poor. I think the layperson view is that more time is spent on social issues such as homosexuality and abortion, but I think that is a public perception more than reality. I would like for less time to be spent on those types of issues if only so that the public perception changes a little. I don't expect the church to say "gay marriage is okay" and I don't want them to say "abortion is okay." I also want the church to address, correctly, the pedophilia issues. I don't know what the new pope's stance on the latter issue is.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:47 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
crispybits wrote:It's not just complicity, by definition the religion is fascist itself. It's hardly a surprise that it finds like-minded types to share afternoon coffee and cake with.

No more than your idea that anyone with faith is obviously not thinking straight.

No single idea is fascism, fascism is about not allowing opposition. Most modern Christians are no less willing to let others be than atheists.

The article was humerous, and largely because it did have just enough truth in it to be painful.. but expanded. Trying to paint is as anything else is beneath you crispy.


The problem with crispy and chang is that they are ignoring history. They are using the support of some Catholics and some priests and some bishops in Nazi Germany for the Nazis to paint the Catholic Church, in its entirety, as supportive of Nazi Germany. That simply isn't true. They are going to point to Pope John Paul's apology as evidence that the Catholic Church acknowledged its support of Nazi Germany. But that wasn't what John Paul apologized for - he apologized for anti-Semitism promoted by the Catholic Church across history (i.e. from the founding of the Church forward).

Basically, there were some portion of priests and bishops (and Catholics) in Nazi Germany who supported the Nazis. There were a lot of other priests, bishops and Catholics who did not support Nazi Germany. Some or all of those people either escaped or were killed by Nazi Germany. The Nazis killed Catholics, because of their religion, in Poland. Catholics from all over the world, including priests, fought in armies against Nazi Germany.

In any event, this is a fun way for atheists to try to denigrate the Catholic Church. There are much better ways to do so that have some basis in fact.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby AAFitz on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:49 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:The fact that he is calling himself "Francis" gives one hope.


on the other hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMtvnAmfuf8
john9blue wrote:"honestly i think martin might be better off dead"

sekretar: "i go to russia and then, without comp, i hoppe, i forgot this shit who kill my nerves long time!"
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby crispybits on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:01 am

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
crispybits wrote:It's not just complicity, by definition the religion is fascist itself. It's hardly a surprise that it finds like-minded types to share afternoon coffee and cake with.

No more than your idea that anyone with faith is obviously not thinking straight.

No single idea is fascism, fascism is about not allowing opposition. Most modern Christians are no less willing to let others be than atheists.

The article was humerous, and largely because it did have just enough truth in it to be painful.. but expanded. Trying to paint is as anything else is beneath you crispy.


The problem with crispy and chang is that they are ignoring history. They are using the support of some Catholics and some priests and some bishops in Nazi Germany for the Nazis to paint the Catholic Church, in its entirety, as supportive of Nazi Germany. That simply isn't true. They are going to point to Pope John Paul's apology as evidence that the Catholic Church acknowledged its support of Nazi Germany. But that wasn't what John Paul apologized for - he apologized for anti-Semitism promoted by the Catholic Church across history (i.e. from the founding of the Church forward).

Basically, there were some portion of priests and bishops (and Catholics) in Nazi Germany who supported the Nazis. There were a lot of other priests, bishops and Catholics who did not support Nazi Germany. Some or all of those people either escaped or were killed by Nazi Germany. The Nazis killed Catholics, because of their religion, in Poland. Catholics from all over the world, including priests, fought in armies against Nazi Germany.

In any event, this is a fun way for atheists to try to denigrate the Catholic Church. There are much better ways to do so that have some basis in fact.


OK, maybe "by definition" was a touch strong, but the cathoilc church runs along lines inherently similar to fascist politics. There is an overall dictator (the pope), oppressing the population by means of strict controls (heaven and hell), and suppressing the opposition through terror (anyone not "one of us" is going to hell). Further to that there is a stirring up of religious identity in a very divisive way, similar to secular nationalism and racism. All of this is by modern actions, if we go into history then there are even greater parallels, especially in suppressing the opposition, but of course the response you'll give is the typical "what the church did in the past isn't relevant any more". I call BS to that, what any organisation does is relevant when the philosophy of that organisation is largely identical now as it was then, and the doctrines and teachings of the catholic church are largely unchanged for hundreds of years on the primary points.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:09 am

crispybits wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
crispybits wrote:It's not just complicity, by definition the religion is fascist itself. It's hardly a surprise that it finds like-minded types to share afternoon coffee and cake with.

No more than your idea that anyone with faith is obviously not thinking straight.

No single idea is fascism, fascism is about not allowing opposition. Most modern Christians are no less willing to let others be than atheists.

The article was humerous, and largely because it did have just enough truth in it to be painful.. but expanded. Trying to paint is as anything else is beneath you crispy.


The problem with crispy and chang is that they are ignoring history. They are using the support of some Catholics and some priests and some bishops in Nazi Germany for the Nazis to paint the Catholic Church, in its entirety, as supportive of Nazi Germany. That simply isn't true. They are going to point to Pope John Paul's apology as evidence that the Catholic Church acknowledged its support of Nazi Germany. But that wasn't what John Paul apologized for - he apologized for anti-Semitism promoted by the Catholic Church across history (i.e. from the founding of the Church forward).

Basically, there were some portion of priests and bishops (and Catholics) in Nazi Germany who supported the Nazis. There were a lot of other priests, bishops and Catholics who did not support Nazi Germany. Some or all of those people either escaped or were killed by Nazi Germany. The Nazis killed Catholics, because of their religion, in Poland. Catholics from all over the world, including priests, fought in armies against Nazi Germany.

In any event, this is a fun way for atheists to try to denigrate the Catholic Church. There are much better ways to do so that have some basis in fact.


OK, maybe "by definition" was a touch strong, but the cathoilc church runs along lines inherently similar to fascist politics. There is an overall dictator (the pope), oppressing the population by means of strict controls (heaven and hell), and suppressing the opposition through terror (anyone not "one of us" is going to hell). Further to that there is a stirring up of religious identity in a very divisive way, similar to secular nationalism and racism. All of this is by modern actions, if we go into history then there are even greater parallels, especially in suppressing the opposition, but of course the response you'll give is the typical "what the church did in the past isn't relevant any more". I call BS to that, what any organisation does is relevant when the philosophy of that organisation is largely identical now as it was then, and the doctrines and teachings of the catholic church are largely unchanged for hundreds of years on the primary points.


The Catholic Church is run like any other religious organization and that could be considered facist, if you want. I'm not sure how much oppression is going on since Catholics can certianly leave the church (with the punishment being going to hell, sure). The Church also has not, at least in the last 150 years or so, made a big stink about being the "correct" religion. The Church has reached out to Muslims and Jews, primarily. Most governments couldn't say the same. I agree that one cannot ignore history and there are things to be ashamed of.

I guess my response to your valid critique is whether you make the same critiques about, say, the British government or the UK in general, which has oppressed and killed a whole lot of people in the name of nationalism and empire. If you don't make those critiques, why not? And if you can answer that question reasonably, then I think you can also answer the question as to why you should stop critiquing the Catholic Church's history. To my knowledge, the United States has not apologized to the native Americans, the slaves, Mexicans, the Vietnamese, the Koreans, the Japanese, the Germans, etc. The Catholic Church apologized to all religious peoples, including the Jews, for its actions over the course of its history. I'm unconcerned as to whether the Catholic Church should be held to a higher standard than national governments (because I think it should), but what more would you like the Catholic Church to do?
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:34 am

Hocus Popus. Religious themed magic.




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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby crispybits on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:36 am

Not "any other religious organisation" but I'll skip that point as it's largely a tangent.

Saying "you didn't oppose this lot doing those bad things so why do you oppose that lot doing these bad things" is invalid. It's like saying "you didn't say anything here about the Norway mass shootings, so you're not allowed to comment on Sandy Hook". I'm allowed to comment on whatever I want to comment on, and the hypocrisy you imply would only exist if, when asked a direct question about something similar I took a completely different stance without good justification for that or failed to condemn it at all.

So, for reference:

The UK government has done some truly shitty things. I do not deny that they happened, nor do I condone them.
The US government has done some truly shitty things. I do not deny that they happened, nor do I condone them.
Both governments, along with pretty much every other government on earth, should immediately stop doing shitty things and should make reparations wherever possible for the shitty things they have done in the past.

The main difference between governments and the church though is that I believe that governments are necessary. I don't think they are in an optimal form at present, nor do I think they have ever been so, but I believe that we need them to be there in order for society to function. I do not believe the church is necessary at all. I believe that if the church, if all the churches everywhere along with all their screwed up fairy tales, if they all disappeared right now and left nothing but a vaccuum, then society would continue to function. In fact I believe that society would function a whole lot better without them.

So what do I want the church to do? I want it to do exactly what Jesus said, sell everything it owns, give up every shred of political, financial and wordly influence and power, and stop doing harm to the world with it's BS stories about some ultimate absolute truth it can't even demonstrate but which it claims gives it the right to spread harmful messages like "don't wear condoms" to the most AIDS ravaged continent in the world, or "abortion is murder" to societies that then outlaw abortion leading to the deaths of women when pregnancies go wrong, or extra children being put into the system because the parents either can't or don't want to cope with them, or a million other disguting "moral teachings" that do more harm than good. I want every religious person on earth to start spending the time and money they spend on being righteous and pious to actually help people. I don't care if they do it because they think they'll get a reward after they die even, they can carry on believing that all they want, but all the time and energy and money people spend on religion would go a million miles towards actually making this world more just, and kind, and fair, and good. THAT's what I want. For religion to just disappear. Now.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:13 am

thegreekdog wrote:
I've never thought the Catholic Church got away from helping the poor. I think the layperson view is that more time is spent on social issues such as homosexuality and abortion, but I think that is a public perception more than reality. I would like for less time to be spent on those types of issues if only so that the public perception changes a little. I don't expect the church to say "gay marriage is okay" and I don't want them to say "abortion is okay." I also want the church to address, correctly, the pedophilia issues. I don't know what the new pope's stance on the latter issue is.

I have never denied that the Roman Catholic church, or more precisely people and groups within the church, help others. That said, they also have a good many fancy cathedrals, expensive possessions. In many cases they were donated, but the donations often came with the message along the lines of this will excuse some sins I made or put me in a better place with God. They are far from the only church to do that, but as I look around, I see other churches (not my own, by-the-way) doing far more to dig in and help people with day to day needs than the Roman Catholics. Anyway, I don’t want to criticize what the church has done, but there is also wide variety amongst the various sects. The Jesuit and Franciscan lines are the ones participating mostly in the works of which you speak.


Homosexuality and abortion are issues mostly in the US and Europe. They are critical less becuase of specific doctrine (is this issue the correct ) , more because they get at the issue of how much the church should be able to dictate regarding secular life/people outside the church. I don't really feel it is my "place" to tell Roman Catholics what to believe. I will debate my beliefs with theirs, sure, but you all have the right to believe as you will. It becomes an issue, though, when the church decides their beliefs give them the right to decide and influence matters of law, which the RC church very much is doing. (and no, I am not overestimating this at all, just look at the birth control issue as an example)
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