New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:36 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Oh right, I forgot that people still believed in that.

When comparing the perceived threat of coercion (purgatory/hell) and the actual threat of coercion (police enforcement for failing to pay taxes), then we should be able to see the difference here.


Really it's about paying money for services. For example, if there are two parishes to choose from: the first parish has a brand-spanking new church, excellent priests, a great elementary school, and a cool name; the second parish is run down, has a 90 year old priest, a crappy school, and a crappy name... you're going to try to get in the first parish. And it helps, I think (my wife disagrees) if you are an upper middle class family of two attorneys.


That's interesting to know, but how is this related to voluntary v. involuntary exchange?


It's not. I'm just telling you there are benefits associated with your money.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:53 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:"kind of" != backtaxes + sheriff knocking on your door with a gun

:D

For a person with faith, threats like time in purgatory might matter more.
I know a few who would say so.

On a somewhat related track...Did you know that the mafia had its own priests, specifically so they could put their souls at ease without worrying about word "getting out"... kind of twisted, but hey.

The market provides!
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:32 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:"kind of" != backtaxes + sheriff knocking on your door with a gun

:D

For a person with faith, threats like time in purgatory might matter more.
I know a few who would say so.

On a somewhat related track...Did you know that the mafia had its own priests, specifically so they could put their souls at ease without worrying about word "getting out"... kind of twisted, but hey.

The market provides!


I missed this pearl of wisdom from Player... "The Mafia had its own priests." Oh lawdy.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:29 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:"kind of" != backtaxes + sheriff knocking on your door with a gun

:D

For a person with faith, threats like time in purgatory might matter more.
I know a few who would say so.

On a somewhat related track...Did you know that the mafia had its own priests, specifically so they could put their souls at ease without worrying about word "getting out"... kind of twisted, but hey.

The market provides!


I missed this pearl of wisdom from Player... "The Mafia had its own priests." Oh lawdy.


You are just angry, TGD, that your mafia secrets are getting out. Oh, you didn't know? I had GeneralRisk run some background checks on you in between his patriotic gun video posting, and he found out you were in some sort of lawyering mafia group. How is your kind of twisted soul feeling now? Huh?

Oh lawdy indeed!


--Andy
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:36 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:"kind of" != backtaxes + sheriff knocking on your door with a gun

:D

For a person with faith, threats like time in purgatory might matter more.
I know a few who would say so.

On a somewhat related track...Did you know that the mafia had its own priests, specifically so they could put their souls at ease without worrying about word "getting out"... kind of twisted, but hey.

The market provides!


I missed this pearl of wisdom from Player... "The Mafia had its own priests." Oh lawdy.

Are you saying this is not true?

My point was that they could care less about the law, were pretty much willing to risk personal injury, but did care about God.. not enough to obey his tenets, but ...
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Play Loud !

Postby MrPanzerGeneral on Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:10 pm

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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:11 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:"kind of" != backtaxes + sheriff knocking on your door with a gun

:D

For a person with faith, threats like time in purgatory might matter more.
I know a few who would say so.

On a somewhat related track...Did you know that the mafia had its own priests, specifically so they could put their souls at ease without worrying about word "getting out"... kind of twisted, but hey.

The market provides!


I missed this pearl of wisdom from Player... "The Mafia had its own priests." Oh lawdy.

Are you saying this is not true?

My point was that they could care less about the law, were pretty much willing to risk personal injury, but did care about God.. not enough to obey his tenets, but ...

Seriously, greekdog... are you thinking this was just some kind of prejudicial statement? It was not.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:26 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:"kind of" != backtaxes + sheriff knocking on your door with a gun

:D

For a person with faith, threats like time in purgatory might matter more.
I know a few who would say so.

On a somewhat related track...Did you know that the mafia had its own priests, specifically so they could put their souls at ease without worrying about word "getting out"... kind of twisted, but hey.

The market provides!


I missed this pearl of wisdom from Player... "The Mafia had its own priests." Oh lawdy.

Are you saying this is not true?

My point was that they could care less about the law, were pretty much willing to risk personal injury, but did care about God.. not enough to obey his tenets, but ...

Seriously, greekdog... are you thinking this was just some kind of prejudicial statement? It was not.


They didn't have "their own priests." It has nothing to do with prejudice and everything to do with ignorance. I'm saying it's not true. I'm saying that the sacrament of reconciliation allows people, including criminals, to confess their sins to a priest who will not then tell others about those sins. Therefore, while you may make the ignorant statement that "the mafia had their own priests" and believe it, it's far from the truth.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:29 am

Symmetry wrote:Let's just put this here.

Critics have accused him of ignoring the plight of victims during the country’s military dictatorship from 1976-1983, despite victims and their relatives relating first-hand accounts of torture, death and kidnappings to the priests he supervised as the local provincial of the Jesuit Order.[31]
On 15 April 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, as superior in the Society of Jesus of Argentina, accusing him of involvement in the kidnapping by the Navy in May 1976 (during the military dictatorship) of two Jesuit priests.[32] The priests, Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics, were found alive five months later, drugged and semi-nude. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.[33] Horacio Verbitsky, an Argentine investigative journalist and author, wrote a book about this and other related events titled El Silencio: de Paulo VI a Bergoglio: las relaciones secretas de la Iglesia con la ESMA.[34]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio#Relations_with_the_Argentine_government


The accusation is most associated with Horacio Verbitsky, a man invariably described in the international press as a journalist, though rarely with any acknowledgment of his prior life in the terror group the Montoneros. Even fewer note that Verbitsky’s paper backs the increasingly authoritarian government of Cristina Kirchner — the widow of former Argentine president Nestor Kirchner and an admirer of Hugo Chavez.


In our sister paper, The Wall Street Journal, Mary Anastasia O’Grady listed some of them yesterday, defending then-Father Jorge Mario Bergoglio: Nobel Prize winner Adolfo Perez Esquival, who endured jail and torture; Alicia Oliviera, a former regime judge forced into hiding during those dark years, and Graciela Fernandez Meijide, a human-rights activist whose son was abducted by the junta when he was just a teen and never seen again.

Some of these people have serious disagreements with the pope — Fernandez Meijide, for example, is a pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage atheist — but they recognize a libel when they see one.

Which leads us to suspect that the pope’s real “crime” is that he’s popular in the slums of Buenos Aires. So when he criticizes the government, it comes with the one thing foes cannot bear: the credibility that comes from living the Gospel he preaches.




http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/ed ... zksJpcnIOK
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote: They didn't have "their own priests." It has nothing to do with prejudice and everything to do with ignorance. I'm saying it's not true. I'm saying that the sacrament of reconciliation allows people, including criminals, to confess their sins to a priest who will not then tell others about those sins. Therefore, while you may make the ignorant statement that "the mafia had their own priests" and believe it, it's far from the truth.

Sorry greekdog, but I am not wrong here. You can research it, but my information is actually direct. Nor did I intend it as a slight to the Roman Catholic church. Priests are sworn to secrecy, of course, but mafiosa were notoriously suspicious. Actually, the mafia is a pretty interesting topic in and of itself. Here is a bit about more modern involvement, I include it because its from Philadelphia. http://articles.philly.com/1999-08-10/n ... ime-family

Anyway, protestants tend to take a very different view on confession and forgiveness of sins. For us, it is something directly with God and no priest has the authority to truly erase any sin, even minor ones. And, forgiveness doesn't "undo" the sin... it is just forgiveness.

I honestly just meant it as a side joke. My husband's family is Italien. None of them would even question the statement.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:51 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Let's just put this here.

Critics have accused him of ignoring the plight of victims during the country’s military dictatorship from 1976-1983, despite victims and their relatives relating first-hand accounts of torture, death and kidnappings to the priests he supervised as the local provincial of the Jesuit Order.[31]
On 15 April 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, as superior in the Society of Jesus of Argentina, accusing him of involvement in the kidnapping by the Navy in May 1976 (during the military dictatorship) of two Jesuit priests.[32] The priests, Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics, were found alive five months later, drugged and semi-nude. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.[33] Horacio Verbitsky, an Argentine investigative journalist and author, wrote a book about this and other related events titled El Silencio: de Paulo VI a Bergoglio: las relaciones secretas de la Iglesia con la ESMA.[34]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio#Relations_with_the_Argentine_government


The accusation is most associated with Horacio Verbitsky, a man invariably described in the international press as a journalist, though rarely with any acknowledgment of his prior life in the terror group the Montoneros. Even fewer note that Verbitsky’s paper backs the increasingly authoritarian government of Cristina Kirchner — the widow of former Argentine president Nestor Kirchner and an admirer of Hugo Chavez.


In our sister paper, The Wall Street Journal, Mary Anastasia O’Grady listed some of them yesterday, defending then-Father Jorge Mario Bergoglio: Nobel Prize winner Adolfo Perez Esquival, who endured jail and torture; Alicia Oliviera, a former regime judge forced into hiding during those dark years, and Graciela Fernandez Meijide, a human-rights activist whose son was abducted by the junta when he was just a teen and never seen again.

Some of these people have serious disagreements with the pope — Fernandez Meijide, for example, is a pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage atheist — but they recognize a libel when they see one.

Which leads us to suspect that the pope’s real “crime” is that he’s popular in the slums of Buenos Aires. So when he criticizes the government, it comes with the one thing foes cannot bear: the credibility that comes from living the Gospel he preaches.




http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/ed ... zksJpcnIOK

The more I hear of this pope, the more encouraged I am.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:21 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: They didn't have "their own priests." It has nothing to do with prejudice and everything to do with ignorance. I'm saying it's not true. I'm saying that the sacrament of reconciliation allows people, including criminals, to confess their sins to a priest who will not then tell others about those sins. Therefore, while you may make the ignorant statement that "the mafia had their own priests" and believe it, it's far from the truth.

Sorry greekdog, but I am not wrong here. You can research it, but my information is actually direct. Nor did I intend it as a slight to the Roman Catholic church. Priests are sworn to secrecy, of course, but mafiosa were notoriously suspicious. Actually, the mafia is a pretty interesting topic in and of itself. Here is a bit about more modern involvement, I include it because its from Philadelphia. http://articles.philly.com/1999-08-10/n ... ime-family

Anyway, protestants tend to take a very different view on confession and forgiveness of sins. For us, it is something directly with God and no priest has the authority to truly erase any sin, even minor ones. And, forgiveness doesn't "undo" the sin... it is just forgiveness.

I honestly just meant it as a side joke. My husband's family is Italien. None of them would even question the statement.


I'm still not really sure what you're getting at here. On the one hand, you said it was a joke. On the other hand, you seem to be defending the position that "the Mafia had its own priests." That implies that there were priests that were either part of the Mafia or were beholden to the mafia. Your statement is incorrect. Did priests serve the Mafia as part of their congregations? Sure. Is that what you mean? If it is, then we can move on. If not, then I need something more substantial than a link to a philly.com article showing that priests merely serviced the community, which included alleged Mafia members in Philadelphia.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby muy_thaiguy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:51 pm

First time for Jesuit that has actually lived the life in the slums and has helped many people. Yeah, there are political disagreements, but it seems that the majority of people from there have good things to say about him and his work with the poor.
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Re: New Pope elected! Francis I from Argentina.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:22 am

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: They didn't have "their own priests." It has nothing to do with prejudice and everything to do with ignorance. I'm saying it's not true. I'm saying that the sacrament of reconciliation allows people, including criminals, to confess their sins to a priest who will not then tell others about those sins. Therefore, while you may make the ignorant statement that "the mafia had their own priests" and believe it, it's far from the truth.

Sorry greekdog, but I am not wrong here. You can research it, but my information is actually direct. Nor did I intend it as a slight to the Roman Catholic church. Priests are sworn to secrecy, of course, but mafiosa were notoriously suspicious. Actually, the mafia is a pretty interesting topic in and of itself. Here is a bit about more modern involvement, I include it because its from Philadelphia. http://articles.philly.com/1999-08-10/n ... ime-family

Anyway, protestants tend to take a very different view on confession and forgiveness of sins. For us, it is something directly with God and no priest has the authority to truly erase any sin, even minor ones. And, forgiveness doesn't "undo" the sin... it is just forgiveness.

I honestly just meant it as a side joke. My husband's family is Italien. None of them would even question the statement.


I'm still not really sure what you're getting at here. On the one hand, you said it was a joke. On the other hand, you seem to be defending the position that "the Mafia had its own priests." That implies that there were priests that were either part of the Mafia or were beholden to the mafia.

Yes, there were.

thegreekdog wrote: Your statement is incorrect. Did priests serve the Mafia as part of their congregations? Sure. Is that what you mean? If it is, then we can move on. If not, then I need something more substantial than a link to a philly.com article showing that priests merely serviced the community, which included alleged Mafia members in Philadelphia.

[sigh]

I think you are misunderstanding, perhaps intentionally, what I said.

I am not suggesting, nor did I say, that priest were out shooting people or involved directly in mafia crime. I am saying that mafia families would support, make sure that some of “their own” became priests. The mafia members would then go to those specific priests. ALL priests are sworn to secrecy, sure, but just like anything else, an oath is no guarantee.

Understand, its not stereotype to say that the mafia were involved with the Italian community, almost without exception. Partly, it went back to “old country” ties and how they operated in Italy… to even come here often meant having some kind of association or ties to the mafia. Partly, once they got here there was extreme prejudice and even average people needed some kind of protection. If you wanted to work, etc you generally needed help from mafia. Going out “on your own” was possible, but very difficult because prejudice was so strong, even aside from things like not knowing English, etc. In those days, prejudice meant that a lot of non-Italien priests might not give Italiens, in general the reception they should. (the same would happen with Native Americans, other groups). In most cases, the priest who was prejudiced would either deny or justify the actions. (these people just need harsher treatment, or they won’t learn.. more or less). Add it all and it is no surprise at all that the mafia would make sure that some of their own community got into the priesthood.

The part I found ironic about it is why would someone think they can just go out and do harm with impunity and then somehow have it all just erased and made OK because they confessed to a priest. Understand, I don’t believe that is precisely what Roman Catholic theology teaches (they teach erasure of sins, but not that you can just go and sin again with impunity), but it is what a lot of people seem to think.

So, the “joke” part was that some Roman Catholics seem to think they can go be criminals, even mafiosa, and then go get forgiven as if nothing had happened. The real part was that, yes, it did actually happen… even if that is not a full and true understanding of Roman Catholic doctrine.

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