Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

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+1 Atheism
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32%
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Total votes : 22

Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:00 pm

So, while reading an econ. article, I wanted to share this interesting tid-bit:

G.K. Chesterton describes original sin as “the only part of Christian theology which can
really be proved.” He goes on to mock those who deny its existence while clinging to a
belief in God:

Chesterton wrote:If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.(Chesterton 1908, Ch. II)


Chesterton’s argument is straightforward: given the obvious reality of evil in human
affairs, the reasonable conclusion must be either that there is no supreme good (such as
God) or that man is somehow separated from it. He claims that the new theology of his
day is confused, positing a perfect good but denying what would explain the manifest gap
between our experience and that ideal. The two intellectually serious alternatives, he
argues, are atheism on the one hand or a theism that acknowledge sin on the other.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby / on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:51 pm

Why can't God theoretically be always there for us, while also be intentionally trolling us with the many flaws we were made with from day one?

Think about it, God created all the animals and plants in the world perfectly from the outset, with females, males, hermaphrodites, and asexuals. But when it came time to make Adam he basically says "Oh you're lonely? Well I just used up the last piece of dirt, why don't you take a nap while I do some surgery? "
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:57 pm

I never understood the concept of original sin, so upon reading that, I found it more intriguing--but not intriguing enough to spend time wiki-googling it.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:18 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I never understood the concept of original sin, so upon reading that, I found it more intriguing--but not intriguing enough to spend time wiki-googling it.


It's a fall from ethics to morality. The latter considered Satanic.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:25 pm

Is original sin really used to resolve the inconsistencies between (1) God must be totes good and (2) some people have bad morals?
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby AAFitz on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:32 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Is original sin really used to resolve the inconsistencies between (1) God must be totes good and (2) some people have bad morals?



Only if there are inconsistencies with your logic.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby AAFitz on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:33 pm

/ wrote:Why can't God theoretically be always there for us, while also be intentionally trolling us with the many flaws we were made with from day one?

Think about it, God created all the animals and plants in the world perfectly from the outset, with females, males, hermaphrodites, and asexuals. But when it came time to make Adam he basically says "Oh you're lonely? Well I just used up the last piece of dirt, why don't you take a nap while I do some surgery? "


That is a very loose interpretation of Genesis.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:27 pm

I choose Option 5.

Cruelty, death, and murder are inherent in the design of the universe. Nothing can live without killing something else. (Vegetarian and organic-agriculture nonsense aside -- even if you grow your veggies with no pesticides, still you are condemning to death by habitat loss those animals who could have lived on that cropland if you hadn't claimed it first.) Nothing good persists -- create the greatest work of art in the universe, and almost instantly entropy sets about destroying it. Even the most innocent moss lives by secreting acid which crumbles the rock beneath it.

Either there is no God, or he is a profoundly evil and sadistic God. Humans are neither more nor less evil than his other creations. Like every other species, we live by ruthlessly stamping out our competitors, and we will die when someone more ruthless comes and stamps out us. Even if we don't, we will eventually cease to exist when increasing entropy and the expansion of the universe makes existence ultimately impossible, when even subatomic particles are too far apart to interact with each other.

The dove -- universal symbol of peace and mercy -- is one of the most vicious animals known. Male doves will peck out each other's eyes when fighting over a mate. The loser will wander the earth desolate and blind until he eventually starves to death. The female is no innocent, either. While the males are mutilating each other for her affection, she is out there busily tearing up the nests of other birds. That's our wonderful bird of peace and mercy.

The Bible is right about one thing and one thing only -- ALL IS VANITY AND VEXATION OF THE SPIRIT. That's all there is.

Original sin my fat fucking ass. The only original sin is the design of this evil universe that demands blood sacrifice at every level.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:30 pm

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Is original sin really used to resolve the inconsistencies between (1) God must be totes good and (2) some people have bad morals?



Only if there are inconsistencies with your logic.


So what's your response to Chesterton?
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:31 pm

Dukasaur wrote:I choose Option 5.

Cruelty, death, and murder are inherent in the design of the universe. Nothing can live without killing something else. (Vegetarian and organic-agriculture nonsense aside -- even if you grow your veggies with no pesticides, still you are condemning to death by habitat loss those animals who could have lived on that cropland if you hadn't claimed it first.) Nothing good persists -- create the greatest work of art in the universe, and almost instantly entropy sets about destroying it. Even the most innocent moss lives by secreting acid which crumbles the rock beneath it.

Either there is no God, or he is a profoundly evil and sadistic God. Humans are neither more nor less evil than his other creations. Like every other species, we live by ruthlessly stamping out our competitors, and we will die when someone more ruthless comes and stamps out us. Even if we don't, we will eventually cease to exist when increasing entropy and the expansion of the universe makes existence ultimately impossible, when even subatomic particles are too far apart to interact with each other.

The dove -- universal symbol of peace and mercy -- is one of the most vicious animals known. Male doves will peck out each other's eyes when fighting over a mate. The loser will wander the earth desolate and blind until he eventually starves to death. The female is no innocent, either. While the males are mutilating each other for her affection, she is out there busily tearing up the nests of other birds. That's our wonderful bird of peace and mercy.

The Bible is right about one thing and one thing only -- ALL IS VANITY AND VEXATION OF THE SPIRIT. That's all there is.

Original sin my fat fucking ass. The only original sin is the design of this evil universe that demands blood sacrifice at every level.


Instead of entropy, evil, and death, I tend to view some of which you described as Creative Destruction.

Would adopting that term make you feel any better about life in general? :D
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:38 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Instead of entropy, evil, and death, I tend to view some of which you described as Creative Destruction.

D

Battery's almost dead so I won't belabor this.

The term as Marx used it is takes a short term view. Short term in the sense of written history. In that time-frame, something new always arises out of the destruction of the old.

I was talking of a longer time frame, when the creativity of the creators is no longer enough to keep up with the destruction, and something new does NOT always arise from the death of something old.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:57 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Instead of entropy, evil, and death, I tend to view some of which you described as Creative Destruction.

D

Battery's almost dead so I won't belabor this.

The term as Marx used it is takes a short term view. Short term in the sense of written history. In that time-frame, something new always arises out of the destruction of the old.

I was talking of a longer time frame, when the creativity of the creators is no longer enough to keep up with the destruction, and something new does NOT always arise from the death of something old.


There is that race going on, and given its historic path, things in general are improving for more and more people; however, for the future, I remain optimistic, but if certain projected trends continue, then things may get worse or stagnate.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:12 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I never understood the concept of original sin, so upon reading that, I found it more intriguing--but not intriguing enough to spend time wiki-googling it.


It's a fall from ethics to morality. The latter considered Satanic.


what does this post even mean? can you elaborate?
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:19 pm

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I never understood the concept of original sin, so upon reading that, I found it more intriguing--but not intriguing enough to spend time wiki-googling it.


It's a fall from ethics to morality. The latter considered Satanic.


what does this post even mean? can you elaborate?


Ethics are essentially behavioral codes, or laws, Morals are more like independent judgements.
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Re: Christianity, Atheism, and Original Sin

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:39 pm

Sym, didn't you study stuff like this before? If so, could you give us some context and/or arguments concerning the original sin hypothesis?
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