Gun Control

[The Voice]

Mind control is far more damaging to our autonomy than gun control; yet, nobody seems to give two shits about it. You really think your guns will stop tyranny when your minds have been turned to mush?

Instead of "mind control," don't you mean "mind mushing"?

That's a good point. Though the distinction is worth pointing out, I see both as real possibilities for our future.

[BigBallinStalin]

Mind control is far more damaging to our autonomy than gun control; yet, nobody seems to give two shits about it. You really think your guns will stop tyranny when your minds have been turned to mush?

Instead of "mind control," don't you mean "mind mushing"?

That's a good point. Though the distinction is worth pointing out, I see both as real possibilities for our future.

So sayeth The Voice. Let his mind mushing will be done!

[Nobunaga]

How is "assault weapon" defined?

[thegreekdog]

From wiki, here are the proposals (I've limited them to actual gun control proposals):

Congress
- Require background checks for all gun sales, including those by private individuals - I'm indifferent
- Pass a new, stronger ban on assault weapons - I'm indifferent (see below)
- Limit magazines to 10 rounds - I'm indifferent
- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

President
- Improve the data used for the background check system for gun sales - I'm indifferent
- Direct the Centers for Diseas Control and Prevention to research gun violence - I'm opposed
- Give law enforcement additional tools to prevent and prosecute gun crime - I don't know what this means

Also from wiki -

"In discussions about gun laws and gun policies in the United States, an assault weapon is most commonly defined as a semi-automatic firearm possessing certain cosmetic, ergonomic, or construction features similar to those of military firearms." - emphasis is mine.

Semi-automatic firearms fire one bullet (round) each time the tigger is pulled.

"The term 'assault weapon' is sometimes conflated with the term 'assault rifle' which refers only to military rifles capable of selective fire, including fully automatic fire and/or burst fire. In the United States, fully automatic firearms are heavily restricted and regulated be federal laws, state, and local laws." - emphasis is mine.

In sum, gun control proponents are fighting stridently for a law that would ban semi-automatic weapons that look like automatic weapons and gun advocates are fighting stridently against a law that would allow them to keep semi-automatic weapons as long as they don't look like automatic weapons.

And all that in the context of handguns being the most frequent weapon used in homicides by a wide margin and rifles/shotguns being among the lowest frequent weapon used in homicides (less than knives).

[BigBallinStalin]

- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

Fascist!

[rdsrds2120]

- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

Fascist!

It's too late, BBS. He's been swallowed in. Whole.

BMO

[thegreekdog]

- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

Fascist!

It's too late, BBS. He's been swallowed in. Whole.

BMO

I wonder what the argument is in favor of armor-piercing bullets.

[BigBallinStalin]

- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

Fascist!

It's too late, BBS. He's been swallowed in. Whole.

BMO

I wonder what the argument is in favor of armor-piercing bullets.

Freedom.

[thegreekdog]

- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

Fascist!

It's too late, BBS. He's been swallowed in. Whole.

BMO

I wonder what the argument is in favor of armor-piercing bullets.

Freedom.

I loled.

[BigBallinStalin]

A good way to start the morning.

[Phatscotty]

live Senate debate

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

[BigBallinStalin]

live Senate debate

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

Unfortunately, that's also a great way to fall asleep.

[AndyDufresne]

- Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets - I'm in favor

Fascist!

It's too late, BBS. He's been swallowed in. Whole.

BMO

I wonder what the argument is in favor of armor-piercing bullets.

Freedom.

TGD, the modern (wo)man needs to be able to defend themselves from all enemies. I'm talkin' your armored personnel vehicles, your naval warships, your military attack helicopters, your lightly armored deer.

Enemies abound. Lets thin the herd, yo.


--Andy

[thegreekdog]

I've heard a lot of burglars use armor-plated deer as a distraction.

I think armor piercing bullets would also help you against supervillains, like the Juggernaut.

[thegreekdog]

I've heard a lot of burglars use armor-plated deer as a distraction.

I think armor piercing bullets would also help you against supervillains, like the Juggernaut.

Oh shit, what am I saying? Armor-piercing bullets wouldn't work against the Juggernaut!

[Phatscotty]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... -in-peril/

Background checks voted down; Senate gun bill in peril

Note Harry Reid's vote! (as he excoriates extreme Republicans for voting no)

In a major setback for gun control advocates, the Senate Wednesday voted down a key amendment to the embattled Democratic gun bill, signaling the increasingly dim prospects of any meaningful legislative action aimed at strengthening America's gun laws.

The bipartisan Manchin-Toomey amendment, a background check expansion devised by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., Pat Toomey, R-Pa., and a handful of other lawmakers, earned only 54 votes, falling six votes short of the 60-vote threshold. Vice President Joe Biden, who led the Obama administration's months-long lobbying effort on behalf of stronger gun laws, presided over the vote.

The failure of the Manchin-Toomey amendment, which was crafted over weeks of negotiation with the aim of attracting Republican support in both the Senate and, eventually, the House, could serve as the death knell for the larger piece of legislation, though it's possible Reid will bring new amendments to the floor at a later date.

A slew of other amendments, including the assault weapons ban, also failed to gain the necessary traction.

In the hours before the vote, Organizing for Action, an advocacy group that works on behalf of the president's legislative agenda, urged voters to call their senators in support of expanded background checks. The Democratic National Committee (DNC) sent out similar emails, specifically targeting a group of Republican senators who had at one point appeared amenable to the Manchin-Toomey language. Meanwhile, a pro-gun group that had previously backed the ban pulled its support.

In the end, four Republicans voted in favor the Manchin-Toomey amendment, and four Democrats voted against it, excluding Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., who switched his vote from yea to nay for procedural reasons.

Of the Democrats who voted against the amendment, Sens. Max Baucus, D-Mont., Mark Begich, D-Alaska, Heidi Heitkamp, D-N.D., and Mark Pryor, D-Ark. all are up for election next year in 2014 in "red" states, barring Heitkamp, who isn't up for re-election until 2018.

But the pattern is not universal: Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., a "red state" Democrat, voted in its favor. Of the Republicans who voted for the measure -- Sens. Susan Collins, R-Me., Mark Kirk, R-Ill., John McCain, R-Ariz., and Toomey -- only Collins is up for re-election next year. She, Toomey, and Kirk all represent Democratic-leaning states.

McCain, one of those who broke with the GOP ranks, delivered a vehement defense of the bipartisan amendment in debate over the bill, and disputed the argument, touted by his fellow Republicans, that it would strip Americans of their Second Amendment rights.

"For over three decades in Congress, I have built as strong a record as anyone in this body in defending the Second Amendment. I have consistently opposed the efforts of anti-gun activists to ban guns and ammunition, staunchly defending the Constitutional rights that Arizonans hold dear," McCain said, continuing with a list citing his pro-gun credentials. But, he added, "Just as I have long defended the Second Amendment to the Constitution, I have also long believed that it is perfectly reasonable to use available tools to conduct limited background checks, as this amendment prescribes, to help ensure that felons and the mentally-ill do not obtain guns they should not possess."

"In my view, such background checks are not overly burdensome or unconstitutional," McCain said.

Toomey, R-Pa., who spent weeks working with Manchin on the language of the amendment, made a final push for the amendment just minutes before it was shot down. After touting his "A" grade NRA rating and his commitment to upholding the Second Amendment, Toomey argued that "the Second Amendment does not apply equally to every single American," and that his measure would just help keep guns out of the hands who have lost their rights to tote guns.

"The goal was to see if we can find a way to make it a little more difficult for the people who have no legal right to have a gun, for them to obtain one," he said. "There is absolutely no way that this can be construed as an infringement on our Second Amendment rights."

Speaking passionately in remarks after the votes, President Obama lamented the "shameful" events in Congress, and pledged the fight would not end with today's Senate action.

"Sooner or later, we're going to get this right. The memories of these children demand it and so do the American people," said Mr. Obama, who was standing alongside families of the Newtown victims as well as former Rep. Gabby Giffords, who was shot in the head two years ago in the Tucson shootings.

In a flurry of statements released after the vote, Democrats and gun safety advocates concurred with the president's disappointment.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the co-founder of Mayors Against Illegal Drugs, issued a scathing statement calling the amendment's failure a "damning indictment of the stranglehold that special interests have on Washington."

"More than 40 U.S. senators would rather turn their backs on the 90 percent of Americans who support comprehensive background checks than buck the increasingly extremist wing of the gun lobby," Bloomberg wrote. "Democrats - who are so quick to blame Republicans for our broken gun laws - could not stand united. And Republicans - who are so quick to blame Democrats for not being tough enough on crime - handed criminals a huge victory."

Giffords, who after the Tucson shootings founded a gun control advocacy group, emailed supporters shaming lawmakers for doing "nothing" to strengthen gun laws in the wake of violence that wounded her and killed others.

"Over two years ago, when I was shot point-blank in the head, the U.S. Senate chose to do nothing. Four months ago, 20 first-graders lost their lives in a brutal attack on their school, and the U.S. Senate chose to do nothing," Giffords wrote. "It's clear to me that if members of the U.S. Senate refuse to change the laws to reduce gun violence, then we need to change the members of the U.S. Senate."

Meanwhile, the National Rifle Association (NRA), the pro-gun lobby that has been fighting any legislation that would make gun laws more restrictive, released a statement doubling down on its critique of the Manchin-Toomey amendment.

"This amendment would have criminalized certain private transfers of firearms between honest citizens, requiring lifelong friends, neighbors and some family members to get federal government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution," said Chris Cox, an NRA lobbyist, in the statement. "As we have noted previously, expanding background checks, at gun shows or elsewhere, will not reduce violent crime or keep our kids safe in their schools."

[ooge]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57580127/background-checks-voted-down-senate-gun-bill-in-peril/

Background checks voted down; Senate gun bill in peril

Note Harry Reid's vote! (as he excoriates extreme Republicans for voting no)

In a major setback for gun control advocates, the Senate Wednesday voted down a key amendment to the embattled Democratic gun bill, signaling the increasingly dim prospects of any meaningful legislative action aimed at strengthening America's gun laws.

The bipartisan Manchin-Toomey amendment, a background check expansion devised by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., Pat Toomey, R-Pa., and a handful of other lawmakers, earned only 54 votes, falling six votes short of the 60-vote threshold. Vice President Joe Biden, who led the Obama administration's months-long lobbying effort on behalf of stronger gun laws, presided over the vote.

The failure of the Manchin-Toomey amendment, which was crafted over weeks of negotiation with the aim of attracting Republican support in both the Senate and, eventually, the House, could serve as the death knell for the larger piece of legislation, though it's possible Reid will bring new amendments to the floor at a later date.

A slew of other amendments, including the assault weapons ban, also failed to gain the necessary traction.

In the hours before the vote, Organizing for Action, an advocacy group that works on behalf of the president's legislative agenda, urged voters to call their senators in support of expanded background checks. The Democratic National Committee (DNC) sent out similar emails, specifically targeting a group of Republican senators who had at one point appeared amenable to the Manchin-Toomey language. Meanwhile, a pro-gun group that had previously backed the ban pulled its support.

In the end, four Republicans voted in favor the Manchin-Toomey amendment, and four Democrats voted against it, excluding Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., who switched his vote from yea to nay for procedural reasons.

Of the Democrats who voted against the amendment, Sens. Max Baucus, D-Mont., Mark Begich, D-Alaska, Heidi Heitkamp, D-N.D., and Mark Pryor, D-Ark. all are up for election next year in 2014 in "red" states, barring Heitkamp, who isn't up for re-election until 2018.

But the pattern is not universal: Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., a "red state" Democrat, voted in its favor. Of the Republicans who voted for the measure -- Sens. Susan Collins, R-Me., Mark Kirk, R-Ill., John McCain, R-Ariz., and Toomey -- only Collins is up for re-election next year. She, Toomey, and Kirk all represent Democratic-leaning states.

McCain, one of those who broke with the GOP ranks, delivered a vehement defense of the bipartisan amendment in debate over the bill, and disputed the argument, touted by his fellow Republicans, that it would strip Americans of their Second Amendment rights.

"For over three decades in Congress, I have built as strong a record as anyone in this body in defending the Second Amendment. I have consistently opposed the efforts of anti-gun activists to ban guns and ammunition, staunchly defending the Constitutional rights that Arizonans hold dear," McCain said, continuing with a list citing his pro-gun credentials. But, he added, "Just as I have long defended the Second Amendment to the Constitution, I have also long believed that it is perfectly reasonable to use available tools to conduct limited background checks, as this amendment prescribes, to help ensure that felons and the mentally-ill do not obtain guns they should not possess."

"In my view, such background checks are not overly burdensome or unconstitutional," McCain said.

Toomey, R-Pa., who spent weeks working with Manchin on the language of the amendment, made a final push for the amendment just minutes before it was shot down. After touting his "A" grade NRA rating and his commitment to upholding the Second Amendment, Toomey argued that "the Second Amendment does not apply equally to every single American," and that his measure would just help keep guns out of the hands who have lost their rights to tote guns.

"The goal was to see if we can find a way to make it a little more difficult for the people who have no legal right to have a gun, for them to obtain one," he said. "There is absolutely no way that this can be construed as an infringement on our Second Amendment rights."

Speaking passionately in remarks after the votes, President Obama lamented the "shameful" events in Congress, and pledged the fight would not end with today's Senate action.

"Sooner or later, we're going to get this right. The memories of these children demand it and so do the American people," said Mr. Obama, who was standing alongside families of the Newtown victims as well as former Rep. Gabby Giffords, who was shot in the head two years ago in the Tucson shootings.

In a flurry of statements released after the vote, Democrats and gun safety advocates concurred with the president's disappointment.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the co-founder of Mayors Against Illegal Drugs, issued a scathing statement calling the amendment's failure a "damning indictment of the stranglehold that special interests have on Washington."

"More than 40 U.S. senators would rather turn their backs on the 90 percent of Americans who support comprehensive background checks than buck the increasingly extremist wing of the gun lobby," Bloomberg wrote. "Democrats - who are so quick to blame Republicans for our broken gun laws - could not stand united. And Republicans - who are so quick to blame Democrats for not being tough enough on crime - handed criminals a huge victory."

Giffords, who after the Tucson shootings founded a gun control advocacy group, emailed supporters shaming lawmakers for doing "nothing" to strengthen gun laws in the wake of violence that wounded her and killed others.

"Over two years ago, when I was shot point-blank in the head, the U.S. Senate chose to do nothing. Four months ago, 20 first-graders lost their lives in a brutal attack on their school, and the U.S. Senate chose to do nothing," Giffords wrote. "It's clear to me that if members of the U.S. Senate refuse to change the laws to reduce gun violence, then we need to change the members of the U.S. Senate."

Meanwhile, the National Rifle Association (NRA), the pro-gun lobby that has been fighting any legislation that would make gun laws more restrictive, released a statement doubling down on its critique of the Manchin-Toomey amendment.

"This amendment would have criminalized certain private transfers of firearms between honest citizens, requiring lifelong friends, neighbors and some family members to get federal government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution," said Chris Cox, an NRA lobbyist, in the statement. "As we have noted previously, expanding background checks, at gun shows or elsewhere, will not reduce violent crime or keep our kids safe in their schools."

I know that you understand why Reid voted "no"....

[BigBallinStalin]

I've heard a lot of burglars use armor-plated deer as a distraction.

I think armor piercing bullets would also help you against supervillains, like the Juggernaut.

Oh shit, what am I saying? Armor-piercing bullets wouldn't work against the Juggernaut!

Then obviously uranium-depleted bullets must be available on the free market. Juggernaut's gonna get bitched slapped.

[Juan_Bottom]

This is actually a huge victory, I think, in the hindsight of future history.
90% of the public wanted this, and we still don't have it. With the ever-mounting and stupendously-frustrating disenfranchisement of our people by our government; Soon the people will have no choice but to learn how to vote, goddamn it.

Or take direct action. But either way, I'll enjoy seeing our fellow Americans do something.

[Phatscotty]

This is actually a huge victory, I think, in the hindsight of future history.
90% of the public wanted this, and we still don't have it. With the ever-mounting and stupendously-frustrating disenfranchisement of our people by our government; Soon the people will have no choice but to learn how to vote, goddamn it.

Or take direct action. But either way, I'll enjoy seeing our fellow Americans do something.

What is the source for this 90% BS. Is that from the same poll, where the next question yielded that 63% of American's don't think background checks will help, even if their gut says "we need to do something"

[Lootifer]

I've heard a lot of burglars use armor-plated deer as a distraction.

I think armor piercing bullets would also help you against supervillains, like the Juggernaut.

Oh shit, what am I saying? Armor-piercing bullets wouldn't work against the Juggernaut!

Then obviously uranium-depleted bullets must be available on the free market. Juggernaut's gonna get bitched slapped.

INCOMING BACKYARD ENRICHMENT FUCKERRRRRRRRRZZZZZZZZZ!

[Phatscotty]

This Congress has a 6% approval rating. I don't want them opening my can of soup, much less tinkering with the 2nd amendment

[Juan_Bottom]

That's not what the second amendment says.

[Woodruff]

That's not what the second amendment says.

Unless I don't understand what you're referring to, it really does say "shall not be infringed".

[Phatscotty]

That's not what the second amendment says.

Unless I don't understand what you're referring to, it really does say "shall not be infringed".

welcome back Woodruff!