Conquer Club

Okay, I know this can either get bad quickly, or get derailed quicker, but here we go.

Going back through some shows I watched as a kid, I now realize that they are rather "edgy", or to be blunt, very racist in some parts. Disney is one of the big ones out there, with movies like Song of the South, Peter Pan ("What Makes the Redman Red" song), and (debatedly) The Jungle Book ("I Wanna Be Like You" song, despite the guy singing it is Louis Prime (Italian descent)). However, when I first watched these, and other shows, I never really put them together (although, I only remember "Skip-a-dee-doo-dah" from Song of the South) as racist. Looking back on it now, damn. Just, damn.

We used to be more racist than we are now; no point in over-thinking it.

Instead of thinking about how bad some of the historical media (media as in shows, recordings, etc) is, you should be celebrating how far we've come.

Lootifer wrote:We used to be more racist than we are now; no point in over-thinking it.

Instead of thinking about how bad some of the historical media (media as in shows, recordings, etc) is, you should be celebrating how far we've come.

True, and I still enjoy many of those movies and shows, but looking back now, you have to admit it does smack you in the face with it.

And to be a little fair to Disney, Song of the South has never been fully released on VHS or DVD. Segments, but never the whole movie.

Lootifer wrote:We used to be more racist than we are now; no point in over-thinking it.

Instead of thinking about how bad some of the historical media (media as in shows, recordings, etc) is, you should be celebrating how far we've come.

I would only add that the government has long been in bed with Hollywood, and used TV and movies to "teach" us what we should like and what we shouldn't like, and it's to their ends, not the defenseless viewers.

muy_thaiguy wrote:True, and I still enjoy many of those movies and shows, but looking back now, you have to admit it does smack you in the face with it.

Yeah I agree; oh and I wasnt having a go at you, just making a general comment

I would only add that the government has long been in bed with Hollywood, and used TV and movies to "teach" us what we should like and what we shouldn't like, and it's to their ends, not the defenseless viewers.

Haha! As far as things using movies and TV to distort how we behave I would have thought the government was the least of our worries...

My biggest racist influence was the fact that I grew up in a village in Nebraska. I'd never seen ANYONE who wasn't white other than on television until I was about 16 years old or so.

White Jesus

Almost everything people watch on TV is propaganda. Made to influence a persons subconscious to react or act a certain way. Media-Government-Religion are major players. Very sad. People are born into this crap not knowing any different.

Why do people seem to think media/government/religion telling them how to behave on a TV screen is a bad thing? The private sector has been doing since the day the TV/Big screen was invented...

Everything is racist or can be argued as such. We're all racist at our heart.

When I was a kid my parents always taught me that people were equal and all that, regardless of background. But I'm fairly certain both my parents are pretty racist. My mother hates asian and hispanic men (HATES them). My dad doesn't like black folk. Maybe they realized the limits of their own views when they raised their kids cuz they never passed this on to me or my sister, and I never picked up on those things till I was an adult and the parent/child dynamic changed.

-TG

Lootifer wrote:We used to be more racist than we are now; no point in over-thinking it.

Instead of thinking about how bad some of the historical media (media as in shows, recordings, etc) is, you should be celebrating how far we've come.

and @MTG

Well, not only that, but as a child did any of us perceive that as racist? Did anyone of us grow with these songs and become racist?

I'd argue, No. The danger in our reasoning is that over time as we develop these concepts of racism, we begin to later point to something 'racist' in our past experiences. We tend to forget that even if those past events were or not racist, they still were ineffective in shaping our perspectives (i.e. we still do not become racist).

It's like using a context-less approach to the past, e.g. Symmetry's thread about Thomas Jefferson and rape. Without the context of the past, we apply our current perspectives and 'discover' latent racism or evils, even though at the time they were ineffective/nonexistent.

Another point: we apply with hindsight our current views on racism and then (erroneously) apply them to the past. Perhaps, some songs were not at all racist--in that the intentions and interpretation of the authors' were not at all racist.

Woodruff wrote:My biggest racist influence was the fact that I grew up in a village in Nebraska. I'd never seen ANYONE who wasn't white other than on television until I was about 16 years old or so.

That would be the more effective influence of becoming racist. It's not so much popular culture, as it is local influence from peer groups, education (whether public or private), etc.

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Woodruff wrote:My biggest racist influence was the fact that I grew up in a village in Nebraska. I'd never seen ANYONE who wasn't white other than on television until I was about 16 years old or so.

That would be the more effective influence of becoming racist. It's not so much popular culture, as it is local influence from peer groups, education (whether public or private), etc.

It's a combination.

Like, where I grew up, 99% of the population was white. The only times I witnessed any black person's existence is if I saw them in my television or some such and I judge all blacks as I see them in tv because I don't see them in real life.

Army of GOD wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Woodruff wrote:My biggest racist influence was the fact that I grew up in a village in Nebraska. I'd never seen ANYONE who wasn't white other than on television until I was about 16 years old or so.

That would be the more effective influence of becoming racist. It's not so much popular culture, as it is local influence from peer groups, education (whether public or private), etc.

It's a combination.

Like, where I grew up, 99% of the population was white. The only times I witnessed any black person's existence is if I saw them in my television or some such and I judge all blacks as I see them in tv because I don't see them in real life.

Sure, it's "on the margin," thus "X = more effective" while "Y = not so much/less effective." I don't want to keep typing "marginally" within all my sentences though.


The relevant variables of influence upon one's childhood are (1) parental upbringing, (2) genetics, (3) "peer groups"--e.g. one's friends, family friends, people in the neighborhood, etc (See: Gladwell Malcolm - The Tipping Point). Broader influences like "the environment" or "television" are very vague, thus hard to estimate--which is unfortunate.

My main point here is that the primary cause/influence of racism is not popular culture (e.g. Disney films of alleged racist connations), but rather one's immediate environment--i.e. peer groups, parents, genetics. (Genetics? Perhaps, but I'm not sure about the neuroscience on that one).

No one's arguing with you...

You're right, but usually conversation brings up other interesting points.

I guess I was fortunate to be raised in a mixed neighborhood and to attend schools with about a 70/30 split (70% white, 30% minority). I've never given it much thought.

Somebody here said we should celebrate how far we've come... Perhaps we've pushed it a bit too far.

My eldest (public elementary school student) has a calendar book from school he brings home every day. In this book are notes from the day and assignment due, etc... This book also includes "life lessons" about being studious, being fair, treating everybody with respect... the usual type stuff I guess. That's all well and good. But the cartoon character kids in this book who appear on every other page caught my attention.

I actually counted them out (yeah, I'm like that). I don't remember the exact numbers for any of the races/genders represented but for the white boys... as there was a total of 2. The east Asian kids numbered well over ten, as did the black, perhaps hispanic (hard to tell exactly from a cartoon), and south Asian kids. There were somewhere close to ten white girls also.

Like I said, I don't have the exact counts (except for the white boys, as "2" is quite easy to recall).

I didn't lose any sleep over this, but I found it somewhat odd. Somewhere, somebody in state education made this decision consciously. To what end?

racism is a good thing. it helps your genes or those closely related to yours survive.

however, for much of our existance it would have been known as tribalism.

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Lootifer wrote:We used to be more racist than we are now; no point in over-thinking it.

Instead of thinking about how bad some of the historical media (media as in shows, recordings, etc) is, you should be celebrating how far we've come.

and @MTG

Well, not only that, but as a child did any of us perceive that as racist? Did anyone of us grow with these songs and become racist?

I'd argue, No. The danger in our reasoning is that over time as we develop these concepts of racism, we begin to later point to something 'racist' in our past experiences. We tend to forget that even if those past events were or not racist, they still were ineffective in shaping our perspectives (i.e. we still do not become racist).

It's like using a context-less approach to the past, e.g. Symmetry's thread about Thomas Jefferson and rape. Without the context of the past, we apply our current perspectives and 'discover' latent racism or evils, even though at the time they were ineffective/nonexistent.

Another point: we apply with hindsight our current views on racism and then (erroneously) apply them to the past. Perhaps, some songs were not at all racist--in that the intentions and interpretation of the authors' were not at all racist.

Actually, what you're saying is part of my point. Despite these influences in childhood, most (as I guess some might have) people did not grow up to be racist. Different times, and many of these movies with the racist themes came out well before I was even born (and probably a good number of other posters on here as well), yet we didn't turn out racist (well, most of us I guess). The other part, is that at a young age, many of us do not percieve these things as being offensive, let alone racist, as we had not gotten to that age where we start doing such. We sit down and enjoy a movie that is entertaining to us and really don't think much beyond "that's funny!" or "this song is fun!" And at an older age, we can appreciate the artistry (like the old Disney movies were all hand drawn and done really well) and at the same time, analyzing these old movies for the time they were made in, with not so subtle hints at how other groups were percieved.

I do think that people also tend to be racist unknowing sometimes, im a Puerto Rican, Italian, German, Jew. and when I told a fellow person I worked with that I was all the above he said oh okay well nice to know there was another Puerto Rican in the work place and that I should put up a Puerto Rican flag sticker in my car so he would know what car is mine and to not break into it, I found it funny at the time, but as I think about it well kinda F'ed up. and its one of the reasons I claim myself to be a mutt when it comes to race. but for those who have kids or littler ones around via anyone. it gives us older and younger the opportunity to realize that WE ALL can do our part and to teach the right from wrong that we each have experienced and to pass on the legacy of change to the next generation.

This thread is ridiculous. You Americans are worse than the Germans what with their Nazi-phobia.

Get over yourselves.

Once a person is subject to certain situations or images their brain will log that memory in as a certain level of fear/enjoyment. As early as 2-3 years old these situations can mold a person very subtle. For instance language on Tv. It has become a lot filthier over time. You couldn't say asshole or bitch when I was growing up but you can now. So children who watch a show that talks like that will grow to think it is alright when the parents disagree. Who will look like the fool? Probably the parent at first since it will be only the parent saying it is wrong against millions in society who say its right. Not all children will follow the pack but it makes it harder to raise these kids with respect and morals.

I think we've become oversensitive with a lot of things. There was a popular children's program based on one of Astrid Lindgren books made in the seventies, for a second you can see a nude kid taking a bath, no one considered that pornographic in the seventies, or even eighties or nineties, but now whenever that old program is aired they always get complains of "child pornagrophy". wtf? There's no sexual content, it's not a fucking porno dammit. Who sees that and decides it should be classified as child pornagrophy? It must be a sick bastard! I grew up watching that program as a kid and looking back at it now I still can't see how on earth someone looks at that and calls it child pornagrophy.

More related to the topic at hand, I don't see why a tv series or a movie or anything that goes on the air must be totally free from racial stereotypes. It's not the government who makes these movies, it's not an official declaration of how we should view people with a certain ethnicity, it's just some people who decides to make a movie/tv series, and it's just their view of the world that is being presented. Ìf a show comes off as offensive to you you don't have to watch it. I find a lot of things I see on tv to be disturbing or "dishelpful" to people, but I don't call in telling them that because I don't like it, it shouldn't be allowed. The nerve of these moral "do gooders"is incredible. Just change the fucking channel if you don't like it.

Gillipig, are you opposed to informing others which movies/shows are racist?