denominator wrote:As it stands now, it's worth playing for the tie late in regulation and picking up one point, then getting the "bonus" in OT, and it completely skews the standings as some games are worth 3 points and some are worth 2. Nothing worse than watching 2 of your home team's rivals play to a tie and each pick up a point, then one get the extra.
Good point. Very good point.
Army of GOD wrote:
What a travesty that it was waved off
It was a good call. I would actually have given a 2 minute minor penalty for interference. You are talking about the "incidental contact" of Price in the Montreal game, right? When I looked again, it was a different video...
El Capitan X wrote:The people in flame wars just seem to get dimmer and dimmer. Seriously though, I love your style, always a good read.
Army of GOD wrote:Price initiated the contact, I thought it was a bad call.
Abdelkader is moving across Price's established path to make the save and is in the crease. The contact caused Price to be unable to make the save. Good call. I hate that the league allows a goal to be waved off due to interference without a penalty. By definition, if a goaltender is interfered with such that a goal is waved off, then the goaltender has been interfered with such that a goaltender interference penalty is warranted.
On a different note, I'm curious what other hockey fans' thoughts are on the Slava Voynov suspension. Regardless of what actually happened and whether or not Voynov abused his girlfriend, I have two major issues with the NHL's immediate suspension:
1) It goes against the central tenet of our justice system, that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. Voynov has already been punished by the league before anything has been proven as to whether or not a crime was committed.
2) The league should have no right to prosecute a player for off-ice incidents. Players are, in essence, employees of the NHL and an employer should have no right to say what an employee can or cannot do when they are not working and not on work property.
Obviously, the Voynov suspension is a direct result of the Ray Rice debacle. But suspending Voynov with pay effectively does nothing, and punishes the Kings organization more than it punishes the player. Voynov's contract still counts against the cap but they cannot use him, so they are effectively down a player and out $4million for something that Voynov is only alleged to have done.
Last edited by denominator on Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Army of GOD wrote:Price initiated the contact, I thought it was a bad call.
Abdelkader is moving across Price's established path to make the save and is in the crease. The contact caused Price to be unable to make the save. Good call. I hate that the league allows a goal to be waved off due to interference without a penalty. By definition, if a goaltender is interfered with such that a goal is waved off, then the goaltender has been interfered with such that a goaltender interference penalty is warranted.
Even if Price was not initially going to that spot in the crease, it would be interference because the offensive player has no right to be in the crease unless he is forced in by a defensive player (in which case he is still obligated to try to avoid contact with the goaltender) or he is following the puck into the crease. Although I should say that I know the Hockey Canada rules, not the NHL rules. But they usually are pretty close.
In Hockey Canada rules, incidental contact with the goalie in the crease (unless the player was forced in the crease by a defensive player or he followed the puck into the crease) should be a goaltender interference penalty. Outside the crease, any intentional contact with a goalie is grounds for a goaltender interference penalty.
It is way different than when I was younger. Back then, if the goalie left his crease you could actually body him off the puck, but just not with excessive force. Now goalies are really protected by the rules....which has actually made them take more risks outside the crease and actually, IMO, often put them at greater risk.
denominator wrote:On a different note, I'm curious what other hockey fans' thoughts are on the Slava Voynov suspension. Regardless of what actually happened and whether or not Voynov abused his girlfriend, I have two major issues with the NHL's immediate suspension:
1) It goes against the central tenet of our justice system, that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. Voynov has already been punished by the league before anything has been proven as to whether or not a crime was committed.
2) The league should have no right to prosecute a player for off-ice incidents. Players are, in essence, employees of the NHL and an employer should have no right to say what an employee can or cannot do when they are not working and not on work property.
Obviously, the Voynov suspension is a direct result of the Ray Rice debacle. But suspending Voynov with pay effectively does nothing, and punishes the Kings organization more than it punishes the player. Voynov's contract still counts against the cap but they cannot use him, so they are effectively down a player and out $4million for something that Voynov is only alleged to have done.
I would go further than that and ask why a player cannot play just because he committed a crime. I know they are public figures and it looks bad, but who are we kidding? Most of these guys are not saints. Is there something in all of their contracts that says if they are accused of a crime, they get suspended? If not, then it isn't right to suspend the guy. And if there isn't something in their contracts that says if they are found guilty of a crime they get suspended, then they shouldn't be suspended in that case either.
In Canada, the star hockey players are taught that they are special people from an early age. Junior hockey players have girls throwing themselves at them. It is common for girls to be passed around from player to player on teams. Sometimes at the same party. They are called "f*ck Pucks" or sometimes a nicer term is "Puck Bunnies". But these players are 15 and 16 years old and are treating girls like this. Are we really surprised that they treat women badly when they get older?
I have friends who played college baseball in the USA and it is the same thing down there. These athletes are idolized, but a lot of them have not developed properly and have no respect for other people.
It is just a PR move by the NHL because of the trouble the NFL has faced (and is facing) over the Ray Rice incident. But the problems with professional athletes is spread a lot wider than they want anyone to know.
El Capitan X wrote:The people in flame wars just seem to get dimmer and dimmer. Seriously though, I love your style, always a good read.
Army of GOD wrote:Price initiated the contact, I thought it was a bad call.
Abdelkader is moving across Price's established path to make the save and is in the crease. The contact caused Price to be unable to make the save. Good call. I hate that the league allows a goal to be waved off due to interference without a penalty. By definition, if a goaltender is interfered with such that a goal is waved off, then the goaltender has been interfered with such that a goaltender interference penalty is warranted.
Even if Price was not initially going to that spot in the crease, it would be interference because the offensive player has no right to be in the crease unless he is forced in by a defensive player (in which case he is still obligated to try to avoid contact with the goaltender) or he is following the puck into the crease. Although I should say that I know the Hockey Canada rules, not the NHL rules. But they usually are pretty close.
In Hockey Canada rules, incidental contact with the goalie in the crease (unless the player was forced in the crease by a defensive player or he followed the puck into the crease) should be a goaltender interference penalty. Outside the crease, any intentional contact with a goalie is grounds for a goaltender interference penalty.
It is way different than when I was younger. Back then, if the goalie left his crease you could actually body him off the puck, but just not with excessive force. Now goalies are really protected by the rules....which has actually made them take more risks outside the crease and actually, IMO, often put them at greater risk.
Kerry Fraser keeps a blog called "C'mon Ref!" in which he dissects controversial plays. It is an expanded version of his discussion on TSN. He's explained the call and why interference was the right call here:
as well as outlining the rules. It's a great blog to read whenever a controversial call is made.
TheProwler wrote:
denominator wrote:On a different note, I'm curious what other hockey fans' thoughts are on the Slava Voynov suspension. Regardless of what actually happened and whether or not Voynov abused his girlfriend, I have two major issues with the NHL's immediate suspension:
1) It goes against the central tenet of our justice system, that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. Voynov has already been punished by the league before anything has been proven as to whether or not a crime was committed.
2) The league should have no right to prosecute a player for off-ice incidents. Players are, in essence, employees of the NHL and an employer should have no right to say what an employee can or cannot do when they are not working and not on work property.
Obviously, the Voynov suspension is a direct result of the Ray Rice debacle. But suspending Voynov with pay effectively does nothing, and punishes the Kings organization more than it punishes the player. Voynov's contract still counts against the cap but they cannot use him, so they are effectively down a player and out $4million for something that Voynov is only alleged to have done.
I would go further than that and ask why a player cannot play just because he committed a crime. I know they are public figures and it looks bad, but who are we kidding? Most of these guys are not saints. Is there something in all of their contracts that says if they are accused of a crime, they get suspended? If not, then it isn't right to suspend the guy. And if there isn't something in their contracts that says if they are found guilty of a crime they get suspended, then they shouldn't be suspended in that case either.
In Canada, the star hockey players are taught that they are special people from an early age. Junior hockey players have girls throwing themselves at them. It is common for girls to be passed around from player to player on teams. Sometimes at the same party. They are called "f*ck Pucks" or sometimes a nicer term is "Puck Bunnies". But these players are 15 and 16 years old and are treating girls like this. Are we really surprised that they treat women badly when they get older?
I have friends who played college baseball in the USA and it is the same thing down there. These athletes are idolized, but a lot of them have not developed properly and have no respect for other people.
It is just a PR move by the NHL because of the trouble the NFL has faced (and is facing) over the Ray Rice incident. But the problems with professional athletes is spread a lot wider than they want anyone to know.
I can't comment on Puck Bunnies because while I am aware of their existence, I think that on the whole they are more of an urban legend than a reality. I know most WHL teams have extensive rules on what players can and cannot do off the ice on road trips (they obviously can't control them at home) to cut down on things such as this. Team suspensions for drinking, missing curfew, or having unapproved guests in hotel rooms are quite common.
I also fully agree that there is no reason Voynov (or Rice, or anyone else) should be prevented from continuing to play their sport if they are convicted of a crime, provided that the crime did not occur during a game (McSorely, Bertuzzi) or on company property (if Voynov was beating up his girlfriend in a hotel room while the team is on a roadtrip) AND the player has been properly convicted, sentenced, and served the sentence according to the judicial system.
For instance, if I were to be arrested on suspicion of domestic abuse, my current employer would have no grounds to take any disciplinary action against me provided the crime did not occur on company property. That is the responsibility of the judicial system, not a corporation.
Someone should explain to Kerry Fraser what a High Sticking penalty is...
Do I sound like a bitter Leafs fan?
denominator wrote:I can't comment on Puck Bunnies because while I am aware of their existence, I think that on the whole they are more of an urban legend than a reality.
I honestly am not sure how it is now, but I can tell you that in the 1980's in my city, it was bad. Girls in the closet all night giving BJs to whatever player walked in. Girls laying in bed waiting for the next guy to do whatever.
I am not saying this did not happen outside of Junior hockey parties. But it happened frequently with the Junior hockey players; weekend after weekend. And most of the players had girlfriends that never went to the parties. It is something that would be hard to resist for a teenager, but most teenagers are not bombarded with the opportunities. I think it certainly helped mould their outlook on (lack of) respect for women.
It might be better now. I am involved with hockey and hear some stories, but I am a little too old to be going to the parties...
I'm not trying to derail this thread, but something else bothers me about hockey. And that's just how serious it has become for parents, and therefore players, at such a young age. I am refereeing a tournament for Atom hockey players this weekend. These are little kids...10 years old I think. And I guarantee there will be coaches screaming at referees...coaches screaming at players...parents screaming at referees and players and coaches and other parents. The pressure on these kids is ridiculous. Most of them do not have any fun unless they win.
A large number of of AAA Midget players that have not been drafted by a Junior A team (they draft out of the Minor Midget age group now) give up hockey all together. From a young age, they are playing with the main goal of being drafted to a Junior A team so they can have a shot at professional hockey. When they don't make the cut, they stop playing. Because, for many of them, it has never been about having fun.
El Capitan X wrote:The people in flame wars just seem to get dimmer and dimmer. Seriously though, I love your style, always a good read.
TheProwler wrote:Someone should explain to Kerry Fraser what a High Sticking penalty is...
Do I sound like a bitter Leafs fan?
Yes. That's part of the reason they went to the two-referee system. It's also far easier to decide whether a call is correct or not days later with lots of replays from lots of angles, and slow motion. Still, Fraser is much more familiar with the NHL rulebook than the average hockey fan.
TheProwler wrote:I'm not trying to derail this thread, but something else bothers me about hockey. And that's just how serious it has become for parents, and therefore players, at such a young age. I am refereeing a tournament for Atom hockey players this weekend. These are little kids...10 years old I think. And I guarantee there will be coaches screaming at referees...coaches screaming at players...parents screaming at referees and players and coaches and other parents. The pressure on these kids is ridiculous. Most of them do not have any fun unless they win.
A large number of of AAA Midget players that have not been drafted by a Junior A team (they draft out of the Minor Midget age group now) give up hockey all together. From a young age, they are playing with the main goal of being drafted to a Junior A team so they can have a shot at professional hockey. When they don't make the cut, they stop playing. Because, for many of them, it has never been about having fun.
I fully agree. I was not allowed to play hockey as a child because I missed Tyke (now Timbits) and Atom (due to living in Texas) and moved back to Canada just in time to start PeeWee. On top of that, with a late December birthday, I was significantly younger than everyone else in the same age-group as me. You can see this is still a major factor in major junior hockey as most teams in the CHL have birthdays early in the years.
My brother, however, played for years until giving up due to politics and coach-parents giving some players more icetime than others. He went into refereeing for a long time but gave up on that as well due to the politics and brown-nosing required to bump up the levels.
I now play beer-league hockey with a bunch of guys similar to both of us - we either missed out on playing hockey as a kid due to similar circumstances or gave up due to politics and pressure. I highly recommend anyone who has kids interested in hockey going the recreation hockey -> beer league route, as it's about the fun of the game and drinking beer instead of the bullshit of training for hockey 24/7.
All that being said, I am a season ticket holder for the local WHL team and are part of the problem with putting pressure on these junior age kids trying to make the big leagues.
This thread was about to drop off the page. I figured I would write a quick championship belt recap and upcoming game preview.
Kings de facto started the season with the Regular Season Championship Belt, lost to Sharks game 1. The Sharks lost it to the Islanders, who gave it to the Penguins, who gave it to the Flyers. The Flyers have defended it once against the Red Wings.
That's right, the belt is currently in the hands of a 3-3-2 team. Tomorrow night the Kings are leaving their fortress to challenge for the belt in the Wells Fargo Center. After a rough start to the season, the Kings did a 6-0 win streak, all at home. If they take the belt, it will be their first road victory of the season. If the Flyers can stop them, it will be a true bellwether for their upcoming season.
The Flyers have a great bit of drama at Goalie which is overshadowing the rather disappointing play of the rest of the team. They have two goalies: Ray Emery, who is 3-0-1 and Steve Mason, who is 0-3-1. One is a backup goalie with an undisclosed 1-year contract. One is a "hotshot" starter with a 3-year $12.3 million contract. To the casual observer, this might be a great deal of drama, but most hockey fans are aware of the coin-flippery that is involved in a hockey game. The real issue has been summed up by coach Berube after the win against Detroit: "from a puck possession and offensive standpoint we weren’t good at all."
The Kings, even though they have been a consistently strong team for the last few years - and are beginning to look like a genuine "dynasty team", are still managing to surprise with their skill. Before their last win against Columbus, Kopitar and Brown both said the team needs to improve. I would argue that their line needs to improve, as "That 70s Line" consisting of rookie Tanner Pearson (#70), Carter (#77) and Toffoli (#73) are accounting for most of LA's goals. With the Kings' second line dominating other teams, once the first line "hits their stride", Los Angeles will be the most feared team in the league.
Prediction: Chris Pronger makes a surprise return to Philadelphia and they win 3-1.
DY, I love the championship belt thing. I first read it on Grantland referring to the NBA. You need to provide us weekly updates, every Monday morning.
DoomYoshi wrote:This thread was about to drop off the page. I figured I would write a quick championship belt recap and upcoming game preview.
Kings de facto started the season with the Regular Season Championship Belt, lost to Sharks game 1. The Sharks lost it to the Islanders, who gave it to the Penguins, who gave it to the Flyers. The Flyers have defended it once against the Red Wings.
That's right, the belt is currently in the hands of a 3-3-2 team. Tomorrow night the Kings are leaving their fortress to challenge for the belt in the Wells Fargo Center. After a rough start to the season, the Kings did a 6-0 win streak, all at home. If they take the belt, it will be their first road victory of the season. If the Flyers can stop them, it will be a true bellwether for their upcoming season.
That is the first I've ever heard of it and it's awesome.
Serbia wrote:DY, I love the championship belt thing. I first read it on Grantland referring to the NBA. You need to provide us weekly updates, every Monday morning.
Bollocks.
This.
DoomYoshi wrote:The Flyers have a great bit of drama at Goalie which is overshadowing the rather disappointing play of the rest of the team. They have two goalies: Ray Emery, who is 3-0-1 and Steve Mason, who is 0-3-1. One is a backup goalie with an undisclosed 1-year contract. One is a "hotshot" starter with a 3-year $12.3 million contract. To the casual observer, this might be a great deal of drama, but most hockey fans are aware of the coin-flippery that is involved in a hockey game. The real issue has been summed up by coach Berube after the win against Detroit: "from a puck possession and offensive standpoint we weren’t good at all."
Dammit, I hate the "puck possession" and Corsi keywords this year. It's the new wave of interview buzzwords gradually pushing out the old gems of "all lines were firing out there" and "get pucks to the net". OF FUCKING COURSE IF YOU HAVE THE PUCK MORE YOU'RE GOING TO WIN.
DoomYoshi wrote:The Kings, even though they have been a consistently strong team for the last few years - and are beginning to look like a genuine "dynasty team", are still managing to surprise with their skill. Before their last win against Columbus, Kopitar and Brown both said the team needs to improve. I would argue that their line needs to improve, as "That 70s Line" consisting of rookie Tanner Pearson (#70), Carter (#77) and Toffoli (#73) are accounting for most of LA's goals. With the Kings' second line dominating other teams, once the first line "hits their stride", Los Angeles will be the most feared team in the league.
Coaching, coaching, coaching. As much as I hate Darryl Sutter (actually, the Sutters in general), he is a phenomenal coach. He took the Blackhawks to a division championship and the Conference finals in the early 90s with a team that wasn't considered "stacked". Here in Calgary, in 2004, he dragged the Flames all the way to the Cup finals after an abysmal 7 seasons. Now, with LA, he is again building a deep team without stacking it - their star players never stack up against the star power in Chicago, Tampa Bay, or Pittsburgh.
The biggest mistake the Flames ever made was handing him the GM position. As great of a coach he is, he's a terrible manager.
denominator wrote:Dammit, I hate the "puck possession" and Corsi keywords this year. It's the new wave of interview buzzwords gradually pushing out the old gems of "all lines were firing out there" and "get pucks to the net". OF FUCKING COURSE IF YOU HAVE THE PUCK MORE YOU'RE GOING TO WIN.
I'm not sure how the phrase was used, but a defensive team can focus on limiting their opponent's scoring chances while waiting for opportunities to capitalize on their defensive blunders.
I don't have any stats in front of me, but I am sure that some of best lines in hockey had low puck possession numbers, but very good +/- numbers. An individual line should be formed based on the skill set of the players and the style of play should be based on that skill set. It's obviously a little more complicated than that, but the bottom line is that you don't have to have the puck the majority of the time to score more goals than you surrender.
El Capitan X wrote:The people in flame wars just seem to get dimmer and dimmer. Seriously though, I love your style, always a good read.
Serbia wrote:DY, I love the championship belt thing. I first read it on Grantland referring to the NBA. You need to provide us weekly updates, every Monday morning.
Tampa Bay gets their first shot at the belt this year.
Who is Kucherov? If you watch Lightning games, you may remember that last year he scored a goal on his first ever shot on goal. He scored a hat trick in their last game.
The Lightning are heavy faves in this one.
Prediction: Ben Bishop scores a hat trick PHI 3 TB 8
Just got back from the Red Wings vs. Kings game. Detroit won 5-2. Two goals each for Gustav Nyquist and Pavel Datsyuk. Tatar got Detroit's other goal. Nyquist is the real deal, and hopefully Datsyuk stays healthy the rest of the year. So far, Detroit does look pretty good.
Tampa Bay did succeed in stealing the Regular Season Championship Belt from Philadelphia, who has now defended it against the Capitals. The Lightning also beat Phoenix to make a 3-game winning streak at home. The next match doesn't come up until Thursday, also at home, with Calgary coming to town.
The Lightning are 8-3-1 overall, good enough for first (tied) in the Atlantic Division, so it is fitting that they have the Belt. One of the more remarkable things about Tampa Bay is just how young they are. Some writers are saying they have the youth to be a franchise. That would work if it wasn't for the salary cap. Eventually, the 21-25 year old dynamos are going to want more money and one team won't be able to keep all of them. For now, Stamkos (age - 24), Tyler Johnson (age - 24), Victor Hedman (age - 23), Nikita Kucherov (age - 21) and Johnathon Drouin (age - 19) certainly make this a team to be respected.
Calgary is a perfect team to challenge, as right now they are flaming hot. They are 7-4-2, which is only 3rd in the Pacific, but could be 1st in the Metropolitan or 2nd in the Atlantic. The gods of hockey kayfabe are making this a great match, as Calgary has beat 2 teams on the road to their title shot. First, they beat Nashville - first in the Central Division (they are 2-0 against the Predators right now, which is its own story). Then they beat the Canadiens 6-2 to avenge a 2-1 SO loss. The Habs are the other team tied for first in the Atlantic. If this were a wrestling story (which is the original inspiration for the belt idea), the angles all work perfect. However, they still have to go through the Capitals on this path. If they win there, it will be the most beautiful story I have yet to see come from the Belt.
Prediction: All 12 Tampa fans do something never heard before in that stadium - a hockey cheer. This confuses the Flames players, who assume they accidentally traveled to the wrong city. CAL 3TB 6
If Calgary wins, they continue their road trip in Florida with a trip to the Panthers on Saturday. If Tampa wins, they then go for their first road defense in Columbus on Saturday and another game in Detroit on Sunday. It could be an exciting weekend!
I told you we were coming back. The Metropolitan Trinity (Rangers, Devils, Islanders) are all tied for second only 3 points behind the mascot in the tux.
