European dream is dying

[GoranZ]

They have two options... to become Berlin-Paris-Brussels puppet or to look for their luck elsewhere... With the first their failure will be dictated from elsewhere but from the second one their success will be dictated from London. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland are all perfect examples of countries that are not part of EU but they are successful. Jumping the ship that sinks can sometimes save you.

Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. All three very bad examples. Norway has a lot of oil and gas, the UK doesn't even come close. Switzerland has a weakening banking sector that could fall if the EU ever decides to sanction Swiss bank secrecy, so hardly a favourable situation. Not to mention the Swiss are are small enough for the rest of europe to ignore, the UK isn't. Iceland has no large tangible exports to mainland europe. Their geography prevents that. The UK does and is thus more dependable on europe.

I presume what ever I will throw will be bad example

Not gonna talk about Switzerland and Iceland but what he says about Norway is fair enough. Norway has a population of about 5 million and is sitting on massive oil reserves. It's basically a European Qatar (its GDP per capita is something like 60-70,000USD). Whatever else the UK might do, copying Norway will not be it.

I never said UK should copy Norway, but both UK and Norway produce large quantities of oil, but the difference is that UK is using major part of its, if not all. Anyway almost all profit that Norway makes from oil is invested abroad. So we can agree that even without the oil Norway would have been almost successful as it is today.

[waauw]

You are talking about this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16032198
We dont have big problems with greece, we have big problems with EU(can be seen form the list). Greece is not acting according to EU's needs but according to its own twisted needs. And it is EU who is not respecting rulings of Hague court, yet you guys all point out that you respect the law.
And being recognized by 95% of words population does have some weight. Probably those remaining 5% think that are smarter then the rest.

And yet, the EU is the only way for Macedonia to get out of their hellhole. Funny how all of this works out.

[waauw]

I never said UK should copy Norway, but both UK and Norway produce large quantities of oil, but the difference is that UK is using major part of its, if not all. Anyway almost all profit that Norway makes from oil is invested abroad. So we can agree that even without the oil Norway would have been almost successful as it is today.

Don't know where you got your numbers, but it matters very little. Norway has way more resources than just oil. More than 60% of Norway's exports is natural resources. If one were to include fishery, it would even be near 70%. Add to that paper and timber production and the number might actually hit that 70% mark.

Click image to enlarge.

The same patern can be seen in GDP. Now I admit these numbers might be slightly outdated, but according to what I read Norway's policy since 2004 has not changed that much. In 2004 more than 60% of Norway's GDP was natural resources, public consumption or government expenditures. Taking into account services and manufacturing that is mostly or completely dependent on these natural resources sectors, governmental sectors and consumption sectors; this number should be well over 70%.
This only leaves an additional 30% to create non-resources based wealth.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89conomie_de_la_Norv%C3%A8ge#.C3.89nergie_en_Norv.C3.A8ge

Here's an article from Reuters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/08/us-norway-economy-insight-idUSBREA4703Z20140508

Norway's energy boom is tailing off years ahead of expectations, exposing an economy unprepared for life after oil and threatening the long-term viability of the world's most generous welfare model.

Unfortunately for Scotland, the glory days of British hydrocarbon production are already in the past, with North Sea output down around two thirds since its peak.

[GoranZ]

Not gonna talk about Switzerland and Iceland but what he says about Norway is fair enough. Norway has a population of about 5 million and is sitting on massive oil reserves. It's basically a European Qatar (its GDP per capita is something like 60-70,000USD). Whatever else the UK might do, copying Norway will not be it.

Norway is exporting more to EU then it is importing. UK has almost leveled import-export ratio... I agree this to be crucial difference between UK and Norway, but it only gives UK an advantage. Eye for an eye retaliation, although that leads nowhere.

I never said UK should copy Norway, but both UK and Norway produce large quantities of oil, but the difference is that UK is using major part of its, if not all. Anyway almost all profit that Norway makes from oil is invested abroad. So we can agree that even without the oil Norway would have been almost successful as it is today.

Don't know where you got your numbers, but it matters very little. Norway has way more resources than just oil. More than 60% of Norway's exports is natural resources. If one were to include fishery, it would even be near 70%. Add to that paper and timber production and the number might actually hit that 70% mark.

Click image to enlarge.

The same patern can be seen in GDP. Now I admit these numbers might be slightly outdated, but according to what I read Norway's policy since 2004 has not changed that much. In 2004 more than 60% of Norway's GDP was natural resources, public consumption or government expenditures. Taking into account services and manufacturing that is mostly or completely dependent on these natural resources sectors, governmental sectors and consumption sectors; this number should be well over 70%.
This only leaves an additional 30% to create non-resources based wealth.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89conomie_de_la_Norv%C3%A8ge#.C3.89nergie_en_Norv.C3.A8ge

Some examples of how the UK would be negatively effected:

• The UK produces cars for export to France, jobs they would lose considering the high competitiveness in the automobile sector.

What is this shit? UK cars would become more expensive? You are making this up rite?
Why would they become more expensive?

Here's an article from Reuters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/08/us-norway-economy-insight-idUSBREA4703Z20140508

Norway's energy boom is tailing off years ahead of expectations, exposing an economy unprepared for life after oil and threatening the long-term viability of the world's most generous welfare model.

Unfortunately for Scotland, the glory days of British hydrocarbon production are already in the past, with North Sea output down around two thirds since its peak.

Great and in all your previous mumbling you never mentioned that Norway's exports are being threatened because Norway is not part of EU.
On what grounds would UK be sanctioned if it leaves EU?

Some examples of how the UK would be negatively effected:

• The UK produces cars for export to France, jobs they would lose considering the high competitiveness in the automobile sector.

You are making this up rite?
On what grounds would UK cars become more expensive for the french?

You are talking about this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16032198
We dont have big problems with greece, we have big problems with EU(can be seen form the list). Greece is not acting according to EU's needs but according to its own twisted needs. And it is EU who is not respecting rulings of Hague court, yet you guys all point out that you respect the law.
And being recognized by 95% of words population does have some weight. Probably those remaining 5% think that are smarter then the rest.

And yet, the EU is the only way for Macedonia to get out of their hellhole. Funny how all of this works out.

Croatia joined EU recently and it turn out that the bills they are paying to EU are bigger then the money they get. I presume the difference is for that fat Brussels bureaucrats(maybe you are one of them, who knows).

[waauw]

Great and in all your previous mumbling you never mentioned that Norway's exports are being threatened because Norway is not part of EU.
On what grounds would UK be sanctioned if it leaves EU?

Similar to Greece, it is not in the EU's best interest to have the UK prosper so fast after leaving the EU. It would set a bad precedence for other nations who might think of leaving the EU in the future.

That and the free trade treaty that would have to be negotiated afterwards could possibly be worse than what the UK has now as a member. Europe is more important to the UK than the UK is to europe. This puts europe in the stronger negotiation position.

Whether europe might act vindictively towars the UK, I don't know, but there is always that risk. And for businesses, sudden large changes are equally undesirable. Uncertainty about the future of the UK could stall investments and deteriorate the UK economy.

Lastly, even if the UK acquires great deals, protocols within the EU are slow. It could take quite a while for a deal to be signed. This is not positive for the UK as the longer it drags on, the more negative the impact on the UK.

The only thing the UK really has in its advantage is that the EU can't drive the british down too far or risk too much collateral damage. For similar reasons, the EU is afraid of sanctioning Russia any further, economically speaking of course.

You are making this up rite?
On what grounds would UK cars become more expensive for the french?

import tariffs. For cars this would be 12%.

Croatia joined EU recently and it turn out that the bills they are paying to EU are bigger then the money they get. I presume the difference is for that fat Brussels bureaucrats(maybe you are one of them, who knows).

Many of the bureaucrats and politicians in the EU are pocketfillers and corrupt. There's no doubt about that. But as for where the money is actually going I've got no idea.

Here's a chart of how much every country pays and receives from the EU. Take note, this was 2013.

Click image to enlarge.

source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

[GoranZ]

Great and in all your previous mumbling you never mentioned that Norway's exports are being threatened because Norway is not part of EU.
On what grounds would UK be sanctioned if it leaves EU?

Similar to Greece, it is not in the EU's best interest to have the UK prosper so fast after leaving the EU. It would set a bad precedence for other nations who might think of leaving the EU in the future.

UK is not Greece and will never be Greece. So threats you are openly proclaiming here wont work as easily as you say on UK.

That and the free trade treaty that would have to be negotiated afterwards could possibly be worse than what the UK has now as a member. Europe is more important to the UK than the UK is to europe. This puts europe in the stronger negotiation position.

Whether europe might act vindictively towars the UK, I don't know, but there is always that risk. And for businesses, sudden large changes are equally undesirable. Uncertainty about the future of the UK could stall investments and deteriorate the UK economy.

Lastly, even if the UK acquires great deals, protocols within the EU are slow. It could take quite a while for a deal to be signed. This is not positive for the UK as the longer it drags on, the more negative the impact on the UK.

The only thing the UK really has in its advantage is that the EU can't drive the british down too far or risk too much collateral damage. For similar reasons, the EU is afraid of sanctioning Russia any further, economically speaking of course.

If you didn't noticed but the British are not very happy in the marriage in EU, so instead working out the problems you threaten, first about Commonwealth, then about internal EU market, but you forget 1 very basic economical principle. TRADING PARTNERS SHOULD BE TREATED FAIRLY. That is if you like to have trading partners.
I presume since UK is giving Commonwealth nations privileges in EU, I presume(I havent checked it) it is giving EU nations privileges in Commonwealth market also. And things to be more interesting Commonwealth market has GDP(PPP) of $14.623 trillion, while EU market has GDP(PPP) of $18.124 trillion(or $15.634 trillion without UK) but growth rate in Commonwealth market is much higher then ~0% in EU.
Even consideration for threatening to Commonwealth market would choke EU. Think little bit before you post your threats.

You are making this up rite?
On what grounds would UK cars become more expensive for the french?

import tariffs. For cars this would be 12%.

Pedro before you go any deeper into your fantasy... UK exports into EU as much as EU exports into UK, you simply cant expect that they wont retaliate.
YOU WON'T GET ANYWHERE WITH VINDICTIVE RETALIATION

Croatia joined EU recently and it turn out that the bills they are paying to EU are bigger then the money they get. I presume the difference is for that fat Brussels bureaucrats(maybe you are one of them, who knows).

Many of the bureaucrats and politicians in the EU are pocketfillers and corrupt. There's no doubt about that. But as for where the money is actually going I've got no idea.

Here's a chart of how much every country pays and receives from the EU. Take note, this was 2013.

Click image to enlarge.

source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Although I can see the exact numbers from the graph you posted I can see that Belgium is receiving much more then it is giving. I guess you are not that rich.
UK is giving a lot comparing to what is is taking...
Here are the numbers for Croatia for 2014: EU spent 215.0 M€, Croatia contributed 226.8 M€.
source: How is the EU budget spent?

P.S. After all this talk about how democratic EU plan to act against members that want to leave it, I presume our non European friends(primarily mrswdk) will be quite surprised if not disappointed from EU.
And that is the reason I'm saying that European dream is dying(if it is not dead already).

[waauw]

UK is not Greece and will never be Greece. So threats you are openly proclaiming here wont work as easily as you say on UK.

As you said not 'as easily'. But Europe would still be able to hold a firm hand over the UK.

If you didn't noticed but the British are not very happy in the marriage in EU, so instead working out the problems you threaten, first about Commonwealth, then about internal EU market, but you forget 1 very basic economical principle. TRADING PARTNERS SHOULD BE TREATED FAIRLY. That is if you like to have trading partners.
I presume since UK is giving Commonwealth nations privileges in EU, I presume(I havent checked it) it is giving EU nations privileges in Commonwealth market also. And things to be more interesting Commonwealth market has GDP(PPP) of $14.623 trillion, while EU market has GDP(PPP) of $18.124 trillion(or $15.634 trillion without UK) but growth rate in Commonwealth market is much higher then ~0% in EU.
Even consideration for threatening to Commonwealth market would choke EU. Think little bit before you post your threats.

What should be, often isn't. It's not as if the UK hasn't acted the same way in its own history. Using its power to treat others unfairly.
The UK also has very limited means to provide privileges to the commonwealth market. All trade treaties with non-EU states have to be agreed upon by the entire EU. It is the EU that has allowed the UK to receive privileges concerning the commonwealths. But the UK, spoiled as it is, and nostalgic to its former empire keeps asking too many exceptional treatments.

And I'm not talking about threathening the commonwealth market. I'm talking about the UK in specific, not all commonwealth nations. The others could easily shift their offices and trading connections to the rest of europe, which is precisely the point I'm making.

Pedro before you go any deeper into your fantasy... UK exports into EU as much as EU exports into UK, you simply cant expect that they wont retaliate.
YOU WON'T GET ANYWHERE WITH VINDICTIVE RETALIATION

Irrelevant. As I mentioned before the UK is less important to the EU than the EU is important to the UK. There are differences of scale. 50% of the UK's exports are to the rest of the EU, exports from the rest of the EU to the UK are much much smaller. The same goes for imports.

Although I can see the exact numbers from the graph you posted I can see that Belgium is receiving much more then it is giving. I guess you are not that rich.

Most of that money goes to the city of Brussels. The EU pays for all of its own expenditures and costs, which in Brussels would end up in the pockets of belgians. Perk of being the capital of the EU.

UK is giving a lot comparing to what is is taking...
Here are the numbers for Croatia for 2014: EU spent 215.0 M€, Croatia contributed 226.8 M€.
source: How is the EU budget spent?

P.S. After all this talk about how democratic EU plan to act against members that want to leave it, I presume our non European friends(primarily mrswdk) will be quite surprised if not disappointed from EU.
And that is the reason I'm saying that European dream is dying(if it is not dead already).

I never said, the EU was already planning all of this(it's possible, but nobody except politicians can know that for sure). These are all risks. The UK should firmly assess whether the potential gains outweigh the potential risks. In my opinion, they don't.

Sure some of these are self-evident. For instance concerning car-importations, EVERY NON-EU NATION pays 12% import tariffs, unless special deals are made(which for most tradingpartners is not the case). So yes, it's a given the UK will have to face tariffs. But that doesn't mean the EU planned these to punish the UK. These laws are already in place.

And the european dream is troublesome depending on what country you're talking about. Even the germans know full well it would be utterly stupid to give up on the european dream.

Especially considering that large parts of the european dream have already been succesful. Never in history has such a vast majority of the european continent been at peace. Never in history has european cooperation been so extensive. Never in history have european cultures been so close to each other as they are today. Sure there are still a lot of differences and disagreements, but that doesn't mean the dream is dead. A lot of progress has been made.

In the context of history, europe is doing pretty well.

[mrswdk]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Are you saying the UK hasn't specialized technologically or economically? Because the UK does have specializations (in legal and financial services), and technologically is ranked among the very best countries in the world for its innovation capacity (I've seen one ranking which put the UK at number 1 in the world in quite a few areas of innovation).

UK isn't specialized in all financial services. They are specialized in investments and insurances, two of the most volatile and dangerous markets on the planet as proven by the 2008 crisis. Not to mention, that these sectors are not sufficient to carry the british economy. The UK is simply too highly populated to thrive on merely finances as Switzerland does.

Finance, law, corporate services... I dunno what else. Arms? The point being that the UK does have specializations, and in areas which constitute a significant part of the British economy. Isn't that what you said the UK needs to do - specialize?

As for innovation, the UK has the same problem the US does. Their innovation thrives on highly educated immigrants. 'The smartest and the brightest' as the americans would call them. This combined with high tuition rates will be catastrophic for both the american and british economies if nothing is done about it.

The number of domestic and foreign students applying to go to British universities has been growing, not shrinking. The only country in the world with a better higher educations system than the UK is the US. I don't think the British have anything to worry about there.

The UK is heading in a pretty negative direction with regards to the way it is continually restricting immigration further and further, but I'm not entirely sure it's done this in any way that particularly jeopardizes their talent base yet.

Due to the eurocrisis, many highly educated people from southern europe have been migrating to the richer parts of europe, the UK among them. If the UK leaves the EU it'll have less genius migrants. Even asians will be less inclined to immigrate. Oft times they still come to study at the highly rated universities like Oxford, only to return home afterwards. The world has changed, the west has become less attractive to live in and asia has become more attractive to live in. All in all british innovation is heading for disaster.

Asia has become more attractive, yes, but it has yet to become as attractive as North America, Australia, New Zealand or the UK.

The last question in particular is still valid. Would French people stop buying whatever it is they buy from the UK just because it costs a bit more?

Yes. High expenditure goods are more price-dependent than low expenditure goods. People don't think twice when they buy a bottle of cola for 1,5 euro, but they will think twice when buying a car of 15.000 euro.

You might be surprised. China sticks a tariff of something like 100% on foreign luxury goods (such as LV or Gucci), and yet luxury goods retailers are still scrambling into China to take advantage of the rapidly-expanding luxury goods market. Similarly, the tariffs on foreign cars are not so high but are still pretty eye-watering, and yet foreign car companies (including British brands like jaguar and Land Rover) are seeing their sales boom in China. If someone is already prepared to pay 90,000EUR for a new Land Rover, then the price going up to 100,000EUR isn't going to have as much of an effect as you might think.

In what way is the UK aiming to make increase its links with the Commonwealth nations? Are you referring to the Commonwealth FTA that is being advocated by some in the UK?

Not in specific no. The UK, like any country, wants to expand its trade relations. And what better countries to expand to than the commonwealth. They already have good political relations and are hence advocating for stronger economic ties.

I don't see why the UK leaving the EU would jeopardize this.

And given that the UK would still have its old colonial relations and common history with the Commonwealth should it leave the EU, what you're saying there kinda suggests that the UK wouldn't have too much to worry about in terms of the effects on its relationship with the Commonwealth.

No that's not what I'm saying. What I mean is, good political ties don't per sé make for a good match in economic ties. Those former colonies are not retarded(well most of 'm aren't). They know full well they have to take financial factors into account. The UK has an advantage with them, as opposed to the rest of europe, but it will not matter much if it's the rest of europe they want to reach.

I still haven't seen anything which shows that Commonwealth countries use the UK as an entry into the EU, or that this would be particularly beneficial for the UK.

It would suddenly suffer stronger competition for its financial markets. And it would provide EU-nations, who don't leave the EU, the opportunity to grown their financial sectors themselves.

On the contrary, the UK has long been the biggest and almost only EU member pushing against the EU's attempts to tighten the regulatory environment that European financial institutions operate in (especially when it comes to investment banking). Should the UK leave the EU, London-based institutions would be free to operate with a relatively high degree of freedom while the EU, free of its biggest roadblock, would most likely tighten restrictions on all the banks operating across the countries which remain in the EU.

Does the EU even have any capital controls that would restrict the freedom of Europeans to continue sending their money to the UK in the event of the UK leaving the EU?

Capital controls, no. But it could be worrisome. International transactions are subjected to international treaties. If the UK leaves the EU it would have to completely renegotiate taxation. What that would look like, I don't know. But as I mentioned previously, the UK isn't in a strong negotiating position with europe.
When two nations don't have such treaties, it often can lead to double taxation, which is not very pleasant as you can imagine.

It would be fairly straightforward for those wealthy Europeans to simply move assets to the UK, rather than trying to invest from a base in Germany or Italy.

I'm not saying an exit would be totally painless for the UK, but I'm not entirely convinced that the implications are as grave as you're making them sound.

[GoranZ]

What Could be the Starting Point for EU Collapse?

Decision of Sweden, Denmark to Close Borders 'Resembles a Domino Effect'

From Slovenia to Italy: Schengen Slowly Shutting Down

Dark clouds over Europe

[Bernie Sanders]

EU won't collapse.

You should look at Russia and how the ruble has collapsed and how the Russian economy is in big decline.

Europe will survive and is taking measures to stimulate it's economy.

It's all about those dirty Muslims, heh GoranZ?

[GoranZ]

EU won't collapse.

You sure? Being a slave of US is not very profitable

You should look at Russia and how the ruble has collapsed and how the Russian economy is in big decline.

Hitler was thinking the same... He ended DEAD.

Europe will survive and is taking measures to stimulate it's economy.

Hahahahaha You know nothing about Europe

It's all about those dirty Muslims, heh GoranZ?

Once again... If you want them take them. Otherwise shut a f*ck up.

[Bernie Sanders]

EU won't collapse.

You sure? Being a slave of US is not very profitable

You should look at Russia and how the ruble has collapsed and how the Russian economy is in big decline.

Hitler was thinking the same... He ended DEAD.

Europe will survive and is taking measures to stimulate it's economy.

Hahahahaha You know nothing about Europe

It's all about those dirty Muslims, heh GoranZ?

Once again... If you want them take them. Otherwise shut a f*ck up.

You should look at Russia and how the ruble has collapsed and how the Russian economy is in big decline.

Hitler was thinking the same... He ended DEAD.

You mean the Soviet Union in World War II. Russia is in decline and Hitler is dead already Goran. Putin needs another war soon, to distract his people from the economic problems facing them. Putin will probably drop the price of vodka to keep his country men drunk, as not to organize a rebellion.



CHEERS COMRADE!

[GoranZ]

EU won't collapse.

You sure? Being a slave of US is not very profitable

You should look at Russia and how the ruble has collapsed and how the Russian economy is in big decline.

Hitler was thinking the same... He ended DEAD.

Europe will survive and is taking measures to stimulate it's economy.

Hahahahaha You know nothing about Europe

It's all about those dirty Muslims, heh GoranZ?

Once again... If you want them take them. Otherwise shut a f*ck up.

You should look at Russia and how the ruble has collapsed and how the Russian economy is in big decline.

Hitler was thinking the same... He ended DEAD.

You mean the Soviet Union in World War II. Russia is in decline and Hitler is dead already Goran. Putin needs another war soon, to distract his people from the economic problems facing them. Putin will probably drop the price of vodka to keep his country men drunk, as not to organize a rebellion.



CHEERS COMRADE!

I know only one thing... If Bernie is elected for president US will no longer exist as a country

Until election day you can read something...

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

What European dream? Since when was that a thing? Or is this one of ghose continental Europe, exclude UK things?

[GoranZ]

What European dream? Since when was that a thing? Or is this one of ghose continental Europe, exclude UK things?

This...
Cologne Mayor Blames German Women for Provoking Migrants' New Year Assaults

[mrswdk]

What European dream? Since when was that a thing? Or is this one of ghose continental Europe, exclude UK things?

This...
Cologne Mayor Blames German Women for Provoking Migrants' New Year Assaults

Meh.

In particular, the mayor referred to a code of conduct for young women and girls. In her opinion, women should keep themselves at arm's length from strangers. They also should immediately seek help of passers-by and the police as well as call on other people to bear witness to the attack.

There's a difference between giving people advice on how to avoid trouble and victim blaming.

[GoranZ]

Police reports are slowly appearing in public. Muslim refuges are making Germany more like the countries they arrived from instead of adapting them selves to the habits of the German people.
‘Mrs Merkel invited me’: Cologne assailants’ ‘shameful’ acts detailed in police report

[Symmetry]

Immigrants bringing in there own cultures has long been a part of Europe.

[GoranZ]

It starts... History Repeats? Hitler’s 'Mein Kampf' on Sale in Germany Again
This time soap will be made from the Muslims, not the Jews

Immigrants bringing in there own cultures has long been a part of Europe.

If you prefer to be left alone you should leave your Muslim faith to the land of its origin. That is if you dont want to end up like soap.

[GoranZ]

Time to Step Down? Merkel's Open-Door Refugee Policy Fails

[Symmetry]

It starts... History Repeats? Hitler’s 'Mein Kampf' on Sale in Germany Again
This time soap will be made from the Muslims, not the Jews

Immigrants bringing in there own cultures has long been a part of Europe.

If you prefer to be left alone you should leave your Muslim faith to the land of its origin. That is if you dont want to end up like soap.

I'm really baffled as to why you think I'm Muslim. Is it just trolling? A phobia?

Don't get the soap thing either.

[Bernie Sanders]

The bigotry and racism is exploding in this thread.

[riskllama]

i believe symm knows full well what goran meant...

[GoranZ]

i believe symm knows full well what goran meant...

Of course he knows... And the book was sold out in few hours



IDK how would excluding Greece from Schengen Zone possibly gonna ease the situation with the migrants...
And there are rumors that my country(Macedonia) would have to lock the border with Greece. And we will be back to all that visas shit.
*EU Interior Ministers Can Discuss Greece's Exclusion From Schengen Zone

[waauw]

IDK how would excluding Greece from Schengen Zone possibly gonna ease the situation with the migrants...
And there are rumors that my country(Macedonia) would have to lock the border with Greece. And we will be back to all that visas shit.
*EU Interior Ministers Can Discuss Greece's Exclusion From Schengen Zone

Unfortunately Greece is being used as a scapegoat for a joint failure. As a concept I think Schengen, just like the EU, is a good idea and is worth working on. It's just a pity that politicians haven't been proactive enough. For decades researchers have been predicting larger migrations to europe, and things could easily get worse as global warming is proving devastating in Africa.