Conquer Club

Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China Sea?

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:40 am

_sabotage_ wrote:1. Does history matter? Uh...

Do a timeline of Chinese history, see how far back the opium wars land on the timeline. I would state that until the last decade or so, China was directly affected by the policies enforced by the opium sales.

Most of the top universities in the US were opened with opium money. So, yes, it matters not only to China, but to the US.


I fully understand how it can be frustrating, however if nations keep vexing about what happened a long time ago there will never be an end to the discord. Other nations along the south-China sea have just as much if not more claim on the southern parts of that sea.

_sabotage_ wrote:2. You think that China should enter negotiations utterly naive of recent history? Interesting. You should write a letter suggesting they do so. Please show where China has bullied anyone.

In fact China usually proposes a mutually beneficial agreement for long term cooperation. Many disputes should have been handled by negotiation, but due to US interference, this wasn't possible. Kingsolver's book on the Congo provides a good read on how the US engages in negotiations. The Shock Doctrine is also a good read. The Church committee provides interesting insights on US foreign policy as well. If you think China is utterly ignorant of US foreign policy, please just say so. If not, then please don't make unreasonable demands of China in the face of reality.

China has been entering negotiations with a clear objective and yet people like you still call them a bully. If you are ignorant of the differences in US foreign policy and Chinese foreign policy, here's not a good place to embarrass yourself.


show where China has bullied anyone? How about flexing their muscles by showing off military supremacy? To me that falls under bullying.

And again, I'll repeat what I've said multiple times already, I'm not taking the side of the US. They are not nice guys, so much is plain. I'm taking the side of those South-east asian nations. China refuses to participate in multilateral talks. They only want bilateral talks to strengthen their position. They want to take advantage of their asymethrical superiority to make more demands and fear other nations into submission.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:52 am

ps: why do you feel the compulsion to keep resorting to demeanor and even worse insulting? This is the 3rd time already. I'm kind of getting to see Nietzsche's point concerning you.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:54 am

Again, provide an example of China flexing it's muscle by showing military supremacy.

Most of China's trading partners have been just that, partners. The US has been recorded as organizing 99 successful coups. They have used direct military intervention as an on-going threat. They have used economic debt to bribe leadership.

What about China's activities is bullying when the terms of bullying are compared to US action?

Insults? You are embarrassing yourself. That's a statement of fact. If you find it insulting, then I guess you can't handle the truth.
Metsfanmax
Killing a human should not be worse than killing a pig.

It never ceases to amaze me just how far people will go to defend their core beliefs.
User avatar
Captain _sabotage_
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:21 am

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby mrswdk on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:15 am

_sabotage_ wrote:What about China's activities is bullying when the terms of bullying are compared to US action?


Spoken like a true mainlander.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:21 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Again, provide an example of China flexing it's muscle by showing military supremacy.


China has had too many stand-offs with foreign navies. It has become a patern through chinese foreign policy. And the fact that China actually succeeds in scaring its neighbours into an arms race, says that those neighbours perceive China's actions as threatening.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/chinese-vietnamese-vessels-clash-south-china-sea
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/12/us-china-japan-planes-idUSKBN0EN0L720140612
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/120509/us-south-china-sea
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-28/china-s-advance-spurs-indonesian-military-shift-southeast-asia
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-07/china-may-build-artificial-island-military-base-south-china-sea

_sabotage_ wrote:Most of China's trading partners have been just that, partners. The US has been recorded as organizing 99 successful coups. They have used direct military intervention as an on-going threat. They have used economic debt to bribe leadership.

What about China's activities is bullying when the terms of bullying are compared to US action?


Why do you keep comparing to the US? I'm not saying the US isn't a bully. The US office of foreign affairs is the worlds biggest bully. But that doesn't justify chinese behaviour. And I'm not talking about 'most of China's trading partners', I'm talking about specific trading partners for which relations with China have developed unfriendly.

_sabotage_ wrote:Insults? You are embarrassing yourself. That's a statement of fact. If you find it insulting, then I guess you can't handle the truth.


If I step up to someone on the street and call them 'fat', it'll be perceived as insulting. No matter whether it's true or not. If I call someone whose spent time in prison 'Mr. Delinquent' or 'Mr. Criminal' the entire time, that would be decent of me. No matter if they really have a delinquent or criminal history.

This analogy is similar to you calling me ignorant or embarassing. There is a big difference between just argumenting the opposite and actually calling someone something.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:45 pm

The first two articles discuss disputed claims. If they weren't disputed, then the one-sided articles would make that clear.

The third takes a Chinese perspective of Japanese planes flying close to Chinese military installations in the South China Sea. Note, China actually shot down a US spy plane over the same area about 13 years ago.

The fourth states:

Indonesia has sought to stay out of its neighbors’ spats with China over the South China Sea, and is not an official claimant to areas in dispute.

And the fifth is in regards to "considering plans". The US considered plans to engage in terrorist acts against their own people in Operation Northwoods and was signed by the joint chiefs of staff.

In the Philippines case, both parties would be best suited to make a lease, but are discouraged through US interference. You will find similar claims by the Chinese that Japan is encroaching on Chinese territories.

Since none of the articles mentions undisputed lands being invaded, I don't see what your problem is.

Why do I keep comparing it to the US? Because why would I start to complain about invasion of sovereignty and not discuss the major abuser of it?
Metsfanmax
Killing a human should not be worse than killing a pig.

It never ceases to amaze me just how far people will go to defend their core beliefs.
User avatar
Captain _sabotage_
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:21 am

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:24 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Since none of the articles mentions undisputed lands being invaded, I don't see what your problem is.


The problem is the pattern. China continuously wants to use their stronger and more numerous military assets to influence negotiations for these DISPUTED waters, not undisputed.

If you look into the details, the first article for instance mentions the Paracel Islands, which is in the middle of the disputed area.

Image

_sabotage_ wrote:Why do I keep comparing it to the US? Because why would I start to complain about invasion of sovereignty and not discuss the major abuser of it?


Well there is no reason to. I don't contradict you about US foreign policy. I completely agree they abuse their hegemony way too often.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:32 pm

That's my point. If China is interested in the lands, it can make a mutually beneficial agreement with the countries in question,

Due to US interference, this has not been possible.

Currently, the US is surrounding China with bases, encouraging regions to protract disputes with China and even directly interfering with China. How do you expect China to react?
Metsfanmax
Killing a human should not be worse than killing a pig.

It never ceases to amaze me just how far people will go to defend their core beliefs.
User avatar
Captain _sabotage_
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:21 am

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:37 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:That's my point. If China is interested in the lands, it can make a mutually beneficial agreement with the countries in question,

Due to US interference, this has not been possible.

Currently, the US is surrounding China with bases, encouraging regions to protract disputes with China and even directly interfering with China. How do you expect China to react?


I agree that the US has a roll in it, but this is mainly because the involved ASEAN-nations want the US involved. They're all scared of China. They are scared the chinese might push a deal by threatening with their military, for which there are sufficient indications. Their only chance at getting a fair deal is with multilateral negotiations and with US backing. The chinese want the exact opposite of the involved ASEAN-nations. They want bilateral negotiations and no interference by the US.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby muy_thaiguy on Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:51 pm

waauw wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:That's my point. If China is interested in the lands, it can make a mutually beneficial agreement with the countries in question,

Due to US interference, this has not been possible.

Currently, the US is surrounding China with bases, encouraging regions to protract disputes with China and even directly interfering with China. How do you expect China to react?


I agree that the US has a roll in it, but this is mainly because the involved ASEAN-nations want the US involved. They're all scared of China. They are scared the chinese might push a deal by threatening with their military, for which there are sufficient indications. Their only chance at getting a fair deal is with multilateral negotiations and with US backing. The chinese want the exact opposite of the involved ASEAN-nations. They want bilateral negotiations and no interference by the US.

I think a quote from "Ender's Shadow" fits this pretty well.
"How do you stop bullies?"
"You get your own to protect you."

Crude, I know, but true in this case. The smaller East Asian countries are basically being bullied by the Chinese, so call in the US to keep an eye on things. China doesn't like it because they can't just force the issue with little threat of retalliation. The other countries do like it because it evens the playing field.
"Eh, whatever."
-Anonymous


What, you expected something deep or flashy?
User avatar
Private 1st Class muy_thaiguy
 
Posts: 12727
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 11:20 am
Location: Back in Black

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:52 pm

Vietnam is looking to the US for a fair deal? Based on history, it would seem more likely that Vietnam is shitting itself in fear of not complying with the US. Or complying and still getting agent oranged.
Metsfanmax
Killing a human should not be worse than killing a pig.

It never ceases to amaze me just how far people will go to defend their core beliefs.
User avatar
Captain _sabotage_
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:21 am

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:42 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Vietnam is looking to the US for a fair deal? Based on history, it would seem more likely that Vietnam is shitting itself in fear of not complying with the US. Or complying and still getting agent oranged.


Well mutual enemies, which might be a bit over the top statement, do provide a motivation for ameliorating relations. Though I do have to admit, that the main US-allies in the south-China sea are Taiwan and the Philippines.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/01/the-philippines-malaysia-and-vietnam-race-to-south-china-sea-defense-modernization/

Vietnam-United States

On December 24, the new American ambassador to Vietnam, Ted Osius, gave an interview to Tuoi Tre newspaper. Osius was asked what weapons the U.S. was prepared to sell Vietnam now that it had partially lifted its arms embargo. Ambassador Osius responded, “[I]n the area of maritime security, we can have the fullest possible cooperation and security. It’s really up to the Vietnamese government to decide what weapons are most appropriate for its strategic challenges.”

Ambassador Osius then went on to reveal that he had heard the Vietnamese government was “thinking very deeply and carefully about what weapons are most appropriate and we will be very respectful of the decisions that the government of Vietnam makes about which weapons are the most appropriate one for its situation.”

On January 19, General Vincent Brooks, commander of the U.S. Army Pacific, paid a working visit to Vietnam for discussions with his counterpart Lt. Gen. Vo Van Tuan, Deputy Chief of Staff of the Vietnam People’s Army (VPA). The two sides reviewed progress under the 2011 Memorandum of Understanding on bilateral defense cooperation. They also set priorities for the future including cooperation in humanitarian assistance, search and rescue, military medicine, and sharing of experiences on U.N. peacekeeping.

Before departing, General Brooks met with General Do Ba Ty, chief of staff of the VPA. General Ty suggested that Vietnam and the United States step up the exchange of delegations at all levels and enhance collaboration in sharing information, maritime search and rescue, salvage operations at sea, and English language training. He also raised a perennial request for further U.S. assistance in “overcoming post-war consequences” such as dioxin poisoning from Agent Orange during the Vietnam War.

The day after General Brooks left Hanoi, Patrick Dewar, the executive vice president of Lockheed Martin International, visited Hanoi and met with Senior Lt. Gen. Truong Quang Khanh, Deputy Minister of National Defense. General Khanh expressed his appreciation for Lockheed Martin’s role in cooperating with Vietnam in the field of information technology. No further details were reported.

There has been considerable speculation that Vietnam is interested in procuring maritime surveillance aircraft and other technology related to maritime domain awareness. Lockheed Martin produced the P-3 Orion which is now being phased out by the United States, Australia, and other countries.

The developments of the past two months indicate that Malaysia, the Philippines and Vietnam have all given priority to modernizing their naval forces. Malaysia seeks to replace outdated platforms and weapons systems to keep pace with the introduction of new military technologies, platforms, and weapon systems into the region. The Philippines is starting from a lower base and seeks to acquire the capacity for territorial defense, especially in its maritime domain.

Vietnam’s force modernization program has been underway since the mid-1990s and is now maturing with the acquisition of six advanced Kilo-class submarines. Vietnam also pursues a robust program of defense cooperation with neighboring states as well as major powers to enhance its political and diplomatic leverage. A possible guide to Vietnam’s next phase of force modernization might be revealed when its postponed new Defense White Paper is finally released.

Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam also seek to enhance their capacity for maritime security to meet South China Sea contingencies.


http://thediplomat.com/2015/02/vietnam-and-diplomatic-balancing/

Last year witnessed growing tensions in the South China Sea between Vietnam and China, taking diplomatic relations between the two countries to their lowest point since the end of the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979. In contrast, Vietnam and the United States have enjoyed significant developments in their ties, which will coincide this year with the 20th anniversary of diplomatic relations. Being directly threatened by China in the South China Sea, Vietnam needs a strong partner like the United States to help secure its sovereignty. Depending on China and America for different reasons, Vietnam finds itself needing to balance its diplomacy to effectively manage its relations with the two superpowers.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:50 pm

btw, that website http://thediplomat.com is a very good website if you are interested in asian politics. Just as other media, they might sound somewhat biased every once in a while, but overall the quality of their articles is well above mainstream media.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby persianempire on Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:59 am

The Americans have had their fist in the mix in that part of the world for a very long time now. Since the end of WW2, Japan basically became an american colony. The Americans came in and took over. After that they have been trying to spread their influence all over far east and south east Asia. Korea, Vietnam, Fighting the spread of Communism was the official reason, which can to an extent still be used because of chinas and NK's political ideals. The Americans want more bases, they want to have China completely surrounded, so that in the case of war , they can easily launch attacks.
'Glory and Fame'
Image
User avatar
Major persianempire
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:57 am

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:47 pm

persianempire wrote:The Americans have had their fist in the mix in that part of the world for a very long time now. Since the end of WW2, Japan basically became an american colony. The Americans came in and took over. After that they have been trying to spread their influence all over far east and south east Asia. Korea, Vietnam, Fighting the spread of Communism was the official reason, which can to an extent still be used because of chinas and NK's political ideals. The Americans want more bases, they want to have China completely surrounded, so that in the case of war , they can easily launch attacks.

Or as a counter to keep certain powerful countries in the region with long histories of basically bullying their neighbors, some of those neighbors are close American allies.
"Eh, whatever."
-Anonymous


What, you expected something deep or flashy?
User avatar
Private 1st Class muy_thaiguy
 
Posts: 12727
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 11:20 am
Location: Back in Black

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:33 pm

persianempire wrote:The Americans want more bases, they want to have China completely surrounded, so that in the case of war , they can easily launch attacks.


I don't think the USA really cares about surrounding China as it's almost impossible without the cooperation of Russia. The main US tactic towards China is controlling the naval traderoutes. If they can block those, they can wreck chinese exports.
This is why the US-government is so opposed to the euro-chinese plans to invest in landbased traderoutes. The US has no way to block those.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby macbone on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:16 am

Guys, guys, we can all be friends here. I was just reading a Guardian article today on Ai Weiwei that casually mentioned how China and the US are basically the same country.

Interwoven with the drums and singing of the Hopi performance are incongruous droning horns, performed by exiled Tibetan monks in India. Now that America and China are so intertwined as to be essentially one country – a fact you can’t forget here in San Francisco, where everyone is coding apps for phones made in Shenzhen – Ai’s mashup of the two nations’ oppressed minorities reverberates as a call for reckoning beyond national borders.


http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign ... y#comments

User avatar
Colonel macbone
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:12 pm
Location: Running from a cliff racer

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby DaGip on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:48 am

macbone wrote:Guys, guys, we can all be friends here. I was just reading a Guardian article today on Ai Weiwei that casually mentioned how China and the US are basically the same country.

Interwoven with the drums and singing of the Hopi performance are incongruous droning horns, performed by exiled Tibetan monks in India. Now that America and China are so intertwined as to be essentially one country – a fact you can’t forget here in San Francisco, where everyone is coding apps for phones made in Shenzhen – Ai’s mashup of the two nations’ oppressed minorities reverberates as a call for reckoning beyond national borders.


http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign ... y#comments



Except we killed the Indians.
Army of GOD wrote:This thread is now about my large penis
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class DaGip
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:48 am
Location: Watertown, South Dakota

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:12 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Why is the CCP laying claim to 7 other countries waters and building false islands solely to challenge for naval rights?


1. That sounds pretty clever to me.
2. If an island exists, how can it be false?

-TG
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class TA1LGUNN3R
 
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:52 am
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby persianempire on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:06 am

waauw wrote:
persianempire wrote:The Americans want more bases, they want to have China completely surrounded, so that in the case of war , they can easily launch attacks.


I don't think the USA really cares about surrounding China as it's almost impossible without the cooperation of Russia. The main US tactic towards China is controlling the naval traderoutes. If they can block those, they can wreck chinese exports.
This is why the US-government is so opposed to the euro-chinese plans to invest in landbased traderoutes. The US has no way to block those.


The naval traderoutes sure, but wit the land clear for China..it will become about the naval warfare you can bet. Impossible without the cooperation of Russia thats right for the landroutes...What exactly do you think the best way to invade China is ? by sea. aircraft carriers , naval fighters, nuclear submarines. Like i said the Americans have held the major sway in the pacfic since japans fall, there not giving it up easily. Nuclear subs patrol those waters on high alert..Russian ones as well. But the Chinese are no slouch, they just recently added nuclear strike capabilities to their subs and have submerged extensivley through south east asia resurfacing as far as the persian gulf. now you see all the jockeying for position in the pacific all over again.
'Glory and Fame'
Image
User avatar
Major persianempire
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:57 am

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby waauw on Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:44 pm

persianempire wrote:
waauw wrote:
persianempire wrote:The Americans want more bases, they want to have China completely surrounded, so that in the case of war , they can easily launch attacks.


I don't think the USA really cares about surrounding China as it's almost impossible without the cooperation of Russia. The main US tactic towards China is controlling the naval traderoutes. If they can block those, they can wreck chinese exports.
This is why the US-government is so opposed to the euro-chinese plans to invest in landbased traderoutes. The US has no way to block those.


The naval traderoutes sure, but wit the land clear for China..it will become about the naval warfare you can bet. Impossible without the cooperation of Russia thats right for the landroutes...What exactly do you think the best way to invade China is ? by sea. aircraft carriers , naval fighters, nuclear submarines. Like i said the Americans have held the major sway in the pacfic since japans fall, there not giving it up easily. Nuclear subs patrol those waters on high alert..Russian ones as well. But the Chinese are no slouch, they just recently added nuclear strike capabilities to their subs and have submerged extensivley through south east asia resurfacing as far as the persian gulf. now you see all the jockeying for position in the pacific all over again.


hmmm, invading China is impossible in this day and age. During colonial times it was only possible due to large technological difference, which nowadays is smaller(unless the US is hiding some great secrets).

But yeah I agree, most of the tension is about naval superiority in the east and south-china sea. But I wonder if it's even possible to stop China's rise to local hegemony.
User avatar
Lieutenant waauw
 
Posts: 4756
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby mrswdk on Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:34 am

waauw wrote:I wonder if it's even possible to stop China's rise to local hegemony.


lol. Of course not. Unless India manages to get itself together then China will inevitably become to the Asia-Pacific what the US is to North America.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby GoranZ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:13 am



China is showing muscles... I wonder if US show theirs will China chicken out or will withstand like Russia did with Ukraine.
I think it will chicken out :D
Even a little kid knows whats the name of my country... http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

Interested in clans? Check out the Fallen!
General GoranZ
 
Posts: 2822
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:14 pm

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby khazalid on Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:59 am

i want bicarbonate of chicken tonight
had i been wise, i would have seen that her simplicity cost her a fortune
Lieutenant khazalid
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:39 am
Location: scotland

Re: Why is the US constantly sowing discord in South China S

Postby Oneyed on Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:42 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:Not sure if DaGip is trolling, or really is that ignorant of Asian relations throughout history (and claiming boats built by the very much NON-sea going Chinese thousands of years ago could have ever made it to North America). Considering throughout history, not only Japan, but nearly all East Asian countries fought each other. Some like China itself, even had Civil Wars that lasted generations (era of the Three Kingdoms being the most well known due to the book and various other incarnations).

Knowing DaGip's past on here, he's kind of "eccentric" when it comes to certain things, so...


it is still better to be troll as blind. and speak about things about which you know so little.

Oneyed
User avatar
Private 1st Class Oneyed
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:29 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Practical Explanation about Next Life,

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users