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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:28 pm

This comes in responce to a "locked" thread in the Flame Wars Forum.

TWILL wrote :" make that 2 liberals

time to close this thread me thinks...was hoping people would be grown up enough to let it die, guess I was wrong."


The question is WHY was the thread closed?


1. There is no room at CC for political debate?

2. There is no room at CC for non-liberal debate.

and why lock the thread instead of just delete it?

If the thread had been locked say.... when the racist stuff was being tossed around..that would be understandable. But it wasn't until it got political (with moderator interjecting his bias view) that it was locked.

Which bring up the question.... Should moderators/founders remain neutral in forums? We the paying and non-paying customers will always bring our bias's into discussion, but as owner you would think they would stay neutral as to not alienate their "customers. Because if thats the way it is here at this site I can continue on at other sites where freedom of speech is not restrained.


You can even keep the $20.



Edited
Last edited by jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should modrators/founders be "neutral or bias free?

Postby Augusta on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:34 pm

jay_a2j wrote:This comes in responce to a "locked" thread in the Flame Wars Forum.

TWILL wrote :" make that 2 liberals

time to close this thread me thinks...was hoping people would be grown up enough to let it die, guess I was wrong."


The question is WHY was the thread closed?


1. There is no room at CC for political debate?

2. There is no room at CC for non-liberal debate.

and why lock the thread instead of just delete it?

If the thread had been locked say.... when the racist stuff was being tossed around..that would be understandable. But it wasn't until it got political (with moderator interjecting his bias view) that it was locked.

Which bring up the question.... Should moderators/founders remain neutral in forums? Because if thats the way it is here at this site I can continue on at other sites where freedom of speech is not restrained.


You can even keep the $20.


I do understand jays points here, but think Twill meant to kill the thread because of the racism - not the anti-liberal stuff. He just did it a little late in the thread.

Also agree on this: why not just delete the thread? The racism (and some of the posting are in fact quite bad) still stands for everybody to read as it is now. Why?

Politically I think moderators should be neutral when it comes to politics - and only actually do something when a thread becomes abusive (like the thread we are talking about now was for a long time - and still is as long as its not deleted).
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Postby HighBorn on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:38 pm

what a dumb ass thing to wonder about come on jay ...lol
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Postby Pilate on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:03 pm

Yeah, I only read the last page, but it was pretty obvious Twill was making a joke. It was not about the things jay brought up
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Postby thegrimsleeper on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:04 pm

The thread was all about racism until the very end when someone said the L-word. And then Twill happened to repeat the L-word just prior to deleting the thread. It was not a political thread, it was an abusive thread (and not the fun kind, either).

But jay, you ignored the context and used only the snippet that serves your own agenda of creating assinine debate threads.

You have learned a lot from Bill O'Reilly.
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Postby eye84free on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:22 pm

here here.....good point.....there not going to just delete something without good justifcation and i belive he had reasoning behind it..
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:27 pm

eye84free wrote:here here.....good point.....there not going to just delete something without good justifcation and i belive he had reasoning behind it..





HELLO?????/ They aren't going to delete something without good justification....BUT WE CAN LOCK IT????? And what does that do? Nothing but prevent further posts! Everyone can STILL go in there and read the racist crap!
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:31 pm

thegrimsleeper wrote:The thread was all about racism until the very end when someone said the L-word. And then Twill happened to repeat the L-word just prior to deleting the thread. It was not a political thread, it was an abusive thread (and not the fun kind, either).

But jay, you ignored the context and used only the snippet that serves your own agenda of creating assinine debate threads.

You have learned a lot from Bill O'Reilly.



Snippet????? Here is the ENTIRE POST (as if it makes a difference)

Posted: 17 Jun 2006 17:18 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

make that 2 liberals

time to close this thread me thinks...was hoping people would be grown up enough to let it die, guess I was wrong.

Closed
Thank you, dont come again.

Twill



Happy now? I wonder just how long before this post was locked, the LAST racial comment made...( I'll check on that) Grim.....please make sense when you post.
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Postby thegrimsleeper on Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:48 pm

Ok, check the post-dates. The thread pretty much died on May 20th, but then it was revived by SnoopDogg, who is most likely a member of the Allience (sic). And rather than just ignoring it, like a rational person, you and a handful of others took the bait and kept it going for a little while longer. Then you added a hook of your own with your little list, successfully hijacking the thread and turning it into another one of your pseudo-intellectual (emphasis on pseudo) political debates.

How many of your other threads have been shut down for your liberal-bashing? How many times were you banned for an anti-democrat avatar? Free speech is alive and well on Conquer Club, and guess what: That's exactly why he didn't delete the thread.

Rather than stifle someone else's free speech, he merely locked it, effectively preventing it from ever being ressurected again, while keeping his conscience clear of censorship.
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:01 pm

thegrimsleeper wrote:Ok, check the post-dates. The thread pretty much died on May 20th, but then it was revived by SnoopDogg, who is most likely a member of the Allience (sic). And rather than just ignoring it, like a rational person, you and a handful of others took the bait and kept it going for a little while longer.( I kept NOTHING going! As I recall, I left the thread and then someoneelse (liberal friend) had to take a jab at decent thinking people***note...this is sarcasm do NOT SEND HATE MAIL!) lol Then you added a hook of your own with your little list, successfully hijacking the thread and turning it into another one of your pseudo-intellectual (emphasis on pseudo) political debates.

How many of your other threads have been shut down for your liberal-bashing? ( NONE-THAT I AM AWARE OF) How many times were you banned for an anti-democrat avatar?(NONE AGAIN) Free speech is alive and well on Conquer Club, and guess what: That's exactly why he didn't delete the thread.

Rather than stifle someone else's free speech, he merely locked it, effectively preventing it from ever being ressurected again, while keeping his conscience clear of censorship.




(my comments in parenthasis)- grim get over yourself.... this "thread shut down" and "avatar bans" are a creation of your own mind. :wink:
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Postby Phate on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:05 pm

I don't think you're one to talk about 'creations of your own mind' :roll:
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[Censored for neutrality]

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:07 pm

Hm after reading this I must say:
AndyDufresne wrote: Well I believe ---- -------- ------- ---- -------- ---- and of course then ------ ---- ----- -- ---------- --- ------ ---. In addition to that I ----- ----- --- ------- ------ ----- ---. Really ---- ------ - ------- --------- ---- ---. Simply it comes down to ---- ---- --- ------ ----------- ---- ------- -- -------- ---.
So those are my thoughts on the subject.

**Note** Edited for moderation neutrality.

;)


--Andy
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:07 pm

Phate wrote:I don't think you're one to talk about 'creations of your own mind' :roll:





why do people waste space on the treads with this stuff?
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Postby Augusta on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:14 pm

thegrimsleeper wrote:Free speech is alive and well on Conquer Club, and guess what: That's exactly why he didn't delete the thread.

Rather than stifle someone else's free speech, he merely locked it, effectively preventing it from ever being ressurected again, while keeping his conscience clear of censorship.


I'm somewhat baffled by your self-contradictions grim. Maybe its because I'm from Norway where we have somewhat strict rules on discrimination and racism.

That said, u claim that Twill did not delete the thread because of free speach. But he locked it because...???

First - free speach does not give anyone the right to discriminate (that in fact has nothing to do with free speach because then you are threading into human rights territory). I know this can be a delicate balance sometimes and certainly there are times when free speah comes in conflict with anti-discrimination laws.

Second - from your post I can conclude that I can say whatever I want on CC - if its really, really bad the thread only gets locked, never deleted. But hey... then I have gotten what I wanted anyway - like these guys in the thread we are talking about. It's there like a big commercial poster on a wall. And a locked thread will make many curious and they will read it - just because its locked.

Third - isn't censorship what moderators are supposed to do? (mild censorship, but anyway). And locking a thread - what's that? Isn't that also a kind of censorship?

I still believe the thread should be deleted to make a stand that CC doesn't tolerate racism and discrimination. What if a nazi or some lunatic fanatic posted some really horrible stuff here on CC? Should we just let be - just lock the thread but let still everyone read it?

Don't mean to be quarrelsome, so please don't misunderstand me grim, but I just don't get this. The thread simply shouldn't be there is my opinion.
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Postby thegrimsleeper on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:15 pm

I can only assume you realize that that was the point I was trying to make, as you really gave no indication of this anywhere in your response.

With so many threads already featuring gratuitous liberal-bashing, why on earth would he lock that particular thread...... Hmmmmm......

Oh, I know, because of all the RACISM!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for you not keeping anything going... Well... you didn't make a post in that thread until after it was ressurected. So when Twill "was hoping people would be grown up enough to let it die," he was talking in part about people like you who just don't know that you're not supposed to feed the trolls.
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Postby Pilate on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:15 pm

Twill is going to read this and think "wtf???"
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Postby Phate on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:16 pm

Why would someone 'waste space' making a thread questioning a mod's decision to close another. Trying to do something like this in another forum could easily get you suspended.

Really, no-one wants to hear your complaints about 'liberals' or whatever the f*ck you're talking about, and the thread is NOT going to be unlocked because you whine about it.

Creations of your own mind was in reference to 'dipholicterrata' (?)
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:21 pm

thegrimsleeper wrote:I can only assume you realize that that was the point I was trying to make, as you really gave no indication of this anywhere in your response.

With so many threads already featuring gratuitous liberal-bashing, why on earth would he lock that particular thread...... Hmmmmm......

Oh, I know, because of all the RACISM!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for you not keeping anything going... Well... you didn't make a post in that thread until after it was ressurected. So when Twill "was hoping people would be grown up enough to let it die," he was talking in part about people like you who just don't know that you're not supposed to feed the trolls.




My bad...I don't make it a priority to LOOK at the DATE of the posts before I post. And by the way MANY post get "resurected" just go look at the "Logic Dictates There Must Be A GOD" (Not to be confused with the COD thread :wink: )
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Postby Augusta on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:24 pm

thegrimsleeper wrote:I can only assume you realize that that was the point I was trying to make, as you really gave no indication of this anywhere in your response.

With so many threads already featuring gratuitous liberal-bashing, why on earth would he lock that particular thread...... Hmmmmm......

Oh, I know, because of all the RACISM!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for you not keeping anything going... Well... you didn't make a post in that thread until after it was ressurected. So when Twill "was hoping people would be grown up enough to let it die," he was talking in part about people like you who just don't know that you're not supposed to feed the trolls.


Thanks grim for those kind words!

Oh, and by the way. When I posted in that thread the person before me had posted on it not that long ago. That post made me curious and I read the whole thread - but I did not look at the dates - only the words written. And that why I made my comments on it.

Then someone else told me these guys where long gone and then I said "all is well then" - because like I said - I never noticed the dates.
But - frankly I don't think if a post is 1 day old or 30 days old makes it any less discriminating.
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:28 pm

Phate wrote:Why would someone 'waste space' making a thread questioning a mod's decision to close another. Trying to do something like this in another forum could easily get you suspended.

Really, no-one wants to hear your complaints about 'liberals' or whatever the f*ck you're talking about, and the thread is NOT going to be unlocked because you whine about it.

Creations of your own mind was in reference to 'dipholicterrata' (?)



**** prays for patience****

I question it because (where I live) we have the right to question things. Maybe you live in a communist country and then this becomes a moot point. BELIEVE it or not, not everyone here at CC is LIBERAL!!!! (so I am sure there are those who don't mind the bashing) BASHING???? I'd hardly call what I do bashing. I could go there, but I don't (unless provoked)


Dipholicterrata is a medical term..... get a medical encyclopedia and look it up. The spelling may be off but its a real condition. Boooyah!
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Postby Augusta on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:29 pm

and I just cannot believe I'm comming out somewhat on jays side here... OMG what a curious world this can be sometimes :D


I will not make this a habit - that's for sure (sorry jay - no offense ment, but usually we don't agree on much) :D
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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:31 pm

Augusta wrote:But - frankly I don't think if a post is 1 day old or 30 days old makes it any less discriminating.





I agree :P
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Postby Twill on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:34 pm

Jay, let me clarify, that thread was locked not because of the political debate contained within, nor because of my or any other person's left/right/neutral bent with regards to politics but rather because the comment
ha bicth ur whole flippin familiy and generation had cock in ther mouths u whore
was intended to revive a flame which was, let us say, not conquerclub's best moment.

I chose to leave that thread open rather than lock it because I believed it could die on its own, to let the community decide which direction it wanted to take - would the flames continue if "the alliance" was gone or would the community decide that it wanted to let sleeping dogs lay as it were. It was a key moment in deciding how strict a mod team would have to be in the future and I have to say, the speed with which the thread died, set the very hands off approach we have in stone. This community is run by the community, and that is how Lack, myself and I am sure most of the community would like to see it.

The thread was closed specifically and only because it was revived with the clear goal of stirring shit up, not because of any political views expressed there-in.

Now, as to the view that moderators and/or founders should be neutral, I, as a member of this community first and moderator second, have as much right as you to hold and express my views. As long, and only as long as, as those views stay completely separate from how the forum is moderated and my views do not impact the application of mod powers. Now, I admit, I did not clarify which comments in that post were with regards to my additions to the discussion and which were with regards to the closing of that thread, but I assure you, my/your political views had nothing to do with the thread's closing.

That being said, Jay, I would appreciate it in the future if you would not intentionally try to upset or provoke individuals based on your political views - which you are, of course, entitled to have.

Thank you for your concern, I would be happy to continue this, and any other concerns people may have with the moderation style of this forum in private should you wish

Twill

<edit>
As to why I chose to lock, rather than delete, that thread has entirely to do with "making a stand".

If that thread is deleted, then it never happened. We learn nothing from it, we go nowhere with it, we are "doomed to repeat it".

That thread exists to show that we wont let abuse, trolling and down right messed up crap like that continue here.

Deletion is always biased, it always hides an opinion, it will always kill debate. freedom of speach, as has been questioned here, is about allowing people the right to know as much as it is the right to say. If we do not know what has come before us, we cannot comment on what is to come ahead of us. Locking and deleting are two completely different beasts - one shuts down speach, debate, thought and knowledge based very much on what the mod team decides is right wrong and immoral. Locking on the other hand, while potentially influenced by the very same bias as deleting, allows for debate to continue in other arenas and extend to other topics, very much as this thread has shown it can.

So, when given the choice between delting a thread and locking it, I will take locking ninety nine times out of ten, specifically because I do not have the right to drive the direction of thought or discussion here through making ideas I do not agree with simply dissapear.
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Postby KoolBak on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:45 pm

Here here. Well said Twill.....
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Postby Augusta on Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:46 pm

Twill wrote:Jay, let me clarify, that thread was locked not because of the political debate contained within, nor because of my or any other person's left/right/neutral bent with regards to politics but rather because the comment
ha bicth ur whole flippin familiy and generation had cock in ther mouths u whore
was intended to revive a flame which was, let us say, not conquerclub's best moment.

I chose to leave that thread open rather than lock it because I believed it could die on its own, to let the community decide which direction it wanted to take - would the flames continue if "the alliance" was gone or would the community decide that it wanted to let sleeping dogs lay as it were. It was a key moment in deciding how strict a mod team would have to be in the future and I have to say, the speed with which the thread died, set the very hands off approach we have in stone. This community is run by the community, and that is how Lack, myself and I am sure most of the community would like to see it.

The thread was closed specifically and only because it was revived with the clear goal of stirring shit up, not because of any political views expressed there-in.

Now, as to the view that moderators and/or founders should be neutral, I, as a member of this community first and moderator second, have as much right as you to hold and express my views. As long, and only as long as, as those views stay completely separate from how the forum is moderated and my views do not impact the application of mod powers. Now, I admit, I did not clarify which comments in that post were with regards to my additions to the discussion and which were with regards to the closing of that thread, but I assure you, my/your political views had nothing to do with the thread's closing.

That being said, Jay, I would appreciate it in the future if you would not intentionally try to upset or provoke individuals based on your political views - which you are, of course, entitled to have.

Thank you for your concern, I would be happy to continue this, and any other concerns people may have with the moderation style of this forum in private should you wish

Twill


I just think you made it clear - at least for me - that you are the right person for the moderator job Twill.
I have no problems with you being both a member of community and being a moderator - I think its usually clear which hat you have on at each given moment.

I just don't see why you didn't delete the thread (as a modearator - not member of community :-) ). There must be many nationalities represented here on CC - and many different ethnic groups. I just find it sad that such threads like the one we are still talking about can be allowed to exists.
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