US Trade Wars (15 June 2018 – present)

[Neoteny]

Ah yes, the landmark of all land hungry nations: a 600-year-old war under entirely different political, economic, and cultural systems. Like, when I think of central European warmongering, I think of fucking Sigismund of Luxembourg.

[waauw]

The irony is China is using those "ancient dynasties" as claims for the south-china sea and Tibet.

[2dimes]

Just because the ancient dynasties ruled areas covering much of the land mass that is now governed by China does not mean that any of the ancient dynasties were China. Would you call the Roman Empire the ‘Italian Empire’?

China was founded in 1911.

By that standard, Germany was only founded in 1945/1991. Yet you don't see anyone claiming Germany never invaded anyone.

So are we to take it that you think 'Italian Empire' is a valid name for the Roman Empire?

Lol, yeah. And Russia was founded in 1991, too...

Russia was a country prior to the formation of the Soviet Union and remained a country throughout the existence of the Soviet Union.

And before 1910, China was just a random mass of people hanging around, waiting to form a country?

1949 when Glorious leader won civil war.

[mrswdk]

Ah yes, the landmark of all land hungry nations: a 600-year-old war under entirely different political, economic, and cultural systems. Like, when I think of central European warmongering, I think of fucking Sigismund of Luxembourg.

[mrswdk]

Just because the ancient dynasties ruled areas covering much of the land mass that is now governed by China does not mean that any of the ancient dynasties were China. Would you call the Roman Empire the ‘Italian Empire’?

China was founded in 1911.

By that standard, Germany was only founded in 1945/1991. Yet you don't see anyone claiming Germany never invaded anyone.

So are we to take it that you think 'Italian Empire' is a valid name for the Roman Empire?

Lol, yeah. And Russia was founded in 1991, too...

Russia was a country prior to the formation of the Soviet Union and remained a country throughout the existence of the Soviet Union.

And before 1910, China was just a random mass of people hanging around, waiting to form a country?

The dynastic empires expanded and contracted over varying land masses. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by Genghis Khan after he conquered various other dynasties to unite all of their territory with the land mass that is now the state of Mongolia. Was the Yuan Dynasty ‘China’?

You are retrospectively sticking a modern nation state over the top of historic empires and proclaiming that all those empires are that modern nation state, which is nonsense. Much like your repeated assertions that Julius Cesar was head of the Italian Empire.

[Dukasaur]

Just because the ancient dynasties ruled areas covering much of the land mass that is now governed by China does not mean that any of the ancient dynasties were China. Would you call the Roman Empire the ‘Italian Empire’?

China was founded in 1911.

By that standard, Germany was only founded in 1945/1991. Yet you don't see anyone claiming Germany never invaded anyone.

So are we to take it that you think 'Italian Empire' is a valid name for the Roman Empire?

Lol, yeah. And Russia was founded in 1991, too...

Russia was a country prior to the formation of the Soviet Union and remained a country throughout the existence of the Soviet Union.

And before 1910, China was just a random mass of people hanging around, waiting to form a country?

The dynastic empires expanded and contracted over varying land masses. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by Genghis Khan after he conquered various other dynasties to unite all of their territory with the land mass that is now the state of Mongolia. Was the Yuan Dynasty ‘China’?

You are retrospectively sticking a modern nation state over the top of historic empires and proclaiming that all those empires are that modern nation state, which is nonsense. Much like your repeated assertions that Julius Cesar was head of the Italian Empire.

In a sense, yes he was. However, a lot changed between the death of the last Western Emperor in 476 and the rebirth of the modern Italian state.

In China, however, not much changed in the transition from the Emperor to the Republic. There was a transition from one form of government to another, but the country essentially was handed over intact. Its borders did not change. Acceptance of the abdication of the Emperor was, in fact, one of the first acts promulgated by the new parliament. Many officials in the old government passed through to the new government without interruption in service.

[riskllama]

mrswdk loses this thread.

[Neoteny]

The irony is China is using those "ancient dynasties" as claims for the south-china sea and Tibet.

Weird how a state would use its history to back up its claims. Super ironic. There's a reason these disputes seem so ridiculous, and it's because they are centuries old. But there's a lot of economic value locked up in these areas, and China is trying to maintain their stakes, for better or worse.

The claims are old and probably dumb, on top of being complicated by European colonialism, but they are historically visible.

[mrswdk]

The dynastic empires expanded and contracted over varying land masses. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by Genghis Khan after he conquered various other dynasties to unite all of their territory with the land mass that is now the state of Mongolia. Was the Yuan Dynasty ‘China’?

You are retrospectively sticking a modern nation state over the top of historic empires and proclaiming that all those empires are that modern nation state, which is nonsense. Much like your repeated assertions that Julius Cesar was head of the Italian Empire.

In a sense, yes he was. However, a lot changed between the death of the last Western Emperor in 476 and the rebirth of the modern Italian state.

In China, however, not much changed in the transition from the Emperor to the Republic. There was a transition from one form of government to another, but the country essentially was handed over intact.

Yeah, and not much changed between the Aztecs and Mexico except they got rid of the headdresses

[waauw]

In other news, the USA has never invaded another nation. Trump only started office in 2017, ergo the counter starts in 2017.
Everybody who says otherwise is stuck in pre-primordial times.

[Dukasaur]

The dynastic empires expanded and contracted over varying land masses. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by Genghis Khan after he conquered various other dynasties to unite all of their territory with the land mass that is now the state of Mongolia. Was the Yuan Dynasty ‘China’?

You are retrospectively sticking a modern nation state over the top of historic empires and proclaiming that all those empires are that modern nation state, which is nonsense. Much like your repeated assertions that Julius Cesar was head of the Italian Empire.

In a sense, yes he was. However, a lot changed between the death of the last Western Emperor in 476 and the rebirth of the modern Italian state.

In China, however, not much changed in the transition from the Emperor to the Republic. There was a transition from one form of government to another, but the country essentially was handed over intact.

Yeah, and not much changed between the Aztecs and Mexico except they got rid of the headdresses

The Aztec Empire was attacked by the Spanish Empire and the Spanish Empire won. The Spanish did everything they could to stomp out any remnants of the Aztec power structure and most of the culture. Some bits and pieces survived, but not much.

Nobody conquered China in 1912. There was a transfer of power from one Chinese group to another. Many officials in the old regime continued to serve under the new regime. There was no attempt to bury the history of the Empire, or its culture. For most people, the day after the abdication was pretty much the same as the day before. The Republic took on the mantle of the Empire and did not disavow it.

[riskllama]

In other news, the USA has never invaded another nation. Trump only started office in 2017, ergo the counter starts in 2017.
Everybody who says otherwise is stuck in pre-primordial times.

still a coin toss between Iran & Venezuela, w/Vegas odds currently leaning towards Iran. last time i checked, anyway...*shrugs*.

[mrswdk]

The dynastic empires expanded and contracted over varying land masses. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by Genghis Khan after he conquered various other dynasties to unite all of their territory with the land mass that is now the state of Mongolia. Was the Yuan Dynasty ‘China’?

You are retrospectively sticking a modern nation state over the top of historic empires and proclaiming that all those empires are that modern nation state, which is nonsense. Much like your repeated assertions that Julius Cesar was head of the Italian Empire.

In a sense, yes he was. However, a lot changed between the death of the last Western Emperor in 476 and the rebirth of the modern Italian state.

In China, however, not much changed in the transition from the Emperor to the Republic. There was a transition from one form of government to another, but the country essentially was handed over intact.

Yeah, and not much changed between the Aztecs and Mexico except they got rid of the headdresses

The Aztec Empire was attacked by the Spanish Empire and the Spanish Empire won. The Spanish did everything they could to stomp out any remnants of the Aztec power structure and most of the culture. Some bits and pieces survived, but not much.

Oh wait, so now you're saying that when the Communists overthrew the previous government and actively worked to destroy all old culture (tearing down temples, waging a campaign against Confucianism, turfing the old elite out of their homes and ultimately gutting the state bureaucracy, etc.) that they founded a totally new country and therefore China has only existed since 1949?

[Dukasaur]

The dynastic empires expanded and contracted over varying land masses. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by Genghis Khan after he conquered various other dynasties to unite all of their territory with the land mass that is now the state of Mongolia. Was the Yuan Dynasty ‘China’?

You are retrospectively sticking a modern nation state over the top of historic empires and proclaiming that all those empires are that modern nation state, which is nonsense. Much like your repeated assertions that Julius Cesar was head of the Italian Empire.

In a sense, yes he was. However, a lot changed between the death of the last Western Emperor in 476 and the rebirth of the modern Italian state.

In China, however, not much changed in the transition from the Emperor to the Republic. There was a transition from one form of government to another, but the country essentially was handed over intact.

Yeah, and not much changed between the Aztecs and Mexico except they got rid of the headdresses

The Aztec Empire was attacked by the Spanish Empire and the Spanish Empire won. The Spanish did everything they could to stomp out any remnants of the Aztec power structure and most of the culture. Some bits and pieces survived, but not much.

Oh wait, so now you're saying that when the Communists overthrew the previous government and actively worked to destroy all old culture (tearing down temples, turfing the old elite out of their homes and ultimately gutting the state bureaucracy, etc.) that they founded a totally new country and therefore China has only existed since 1949?

No, they largely transformed the country, but they weren't outsiders. When you change your own country that's not a conquest.

[mrswdk]

Oh I see. If people with the same shaped eyes tear down your society and replace it with a new one then they are transforming a country, whereas if people with different shaped eyes tear down your society and replace it with a new one they're conquerors destroying your country?

Does give us a bit of a dilemma regarding the Yuan Dynasty though. That was founded when Genghis Khan invaded the Song and Jin Dynasties and consolidated all their territory with his. Was he a conqueror or a transformer?

[Dukasaur]

Oh I see. If people with the same shaped eyes tear down your society and replace it with a new one then they are transforming a country, whereas if people with different shaped eyes tear down your society and replace it with a new one they're conquerors destroying your country?

[Neoteny]

In other news, the USA has never invaded another nation. Trump only started office in 2017, ergo the counter starts in 2017.
Everybody who says otherwise is stuck in pre-primordial times.

I mean, by your reckoning the US has been an occupying force since 1492, so don't pretend we're the ones being unreasonable.

[waauw]

In other news, the USA has never invaded another nation. Trump only started office in 2017, ergo the counter starts in 2017.
Everybody who says otherwise is stuck in pre-primordial times.

I mean, by your reckoning the US has been an occupying force since 1492, so don't pretend we're the ones being unreasonable.

And by your reckoning the US was an occupying force many decades before the european colonialists even started colonizing US-territory.

[2dimes]

I'd say he's more Peppermint Patty than Lucy VanPelt. Amirite Saxi?

[Neoteny]

In other news, the USA has never invaded another nation. Trump only started office in 2017, ergo the counter starts in 2017.
Everybody who says otherwise is stuck in pre-primordial times.

I mean, by your reckoning the US has been an occupying force since 1492, so don't pretend we're the ones being unreasonable.

And by your reckoning the US was an occupying force many decades before the european colonialists even started colonizing US-territory.

You caught me, pedant. I was off by a few years on the US by including all European colonization to get closer to the approximate time period. But the point stands.

[mrswdk]

Let’s not forget that all this started because notyou2 tried to claim that the reason China is investing other countries’ trade infrastructure is to give it an easy means of sending troops to those countries, with Duk and waauw piling in with their Chinese history lesson to try and prove him right about China being a fearsome marauder.

On the side of jibbering paranoia: waauw, Duk.
On the side of ‘China is not trying to nuke American children’: Mrs, Neo.

[waauw]

In other news, the USA has never invaded another nation. Trump only started office in 2017, ergo the counter starts in 2017.
Everybody who says otherwise is stuck in pre-primordial times.

I mean, by your reckoning the US has been an occupying force since 1492, so don't pretend we're the ones being unreasonable.

And by your reckoning the US was an occupying force many decades before the european colonialists even started colonizing US-territory.

You caught me, pedant. I was off by a few years on the US by including all European colonization to get closer to the approximate time period. But the point stands.

Not really. I'm just using 'reductio ad absurdum' on mrswdk's reasoning that pre-1911 there was no China and that everything predating that cannot be considered chinese. It is after all one of mrswdk's own preferred methods of argumentation. It's only right that I'm allowed to use equal methods in return.

Just because the ancient dynasties ruled areas covering much of the land mass that is now governed by China does not mean that any of the ancient dynasties were China. Would you call the Roman Empire the ‘Italian Empire’?

China was founded in 1911.

Furthermore, it was mrswdk who himself posed a question that can only be answered by history without specification of timeframe constraints. I was free to mention any example in history without said limitations.

Which countries have China occupied?

Lastly mrswdk claims China didn't exist pre-1911 but has previously and frequently repeated that Tibet and the S-China sea belong to China, based on "ancient dynasties" claims. I'm free to point out hypocrisies when it appears evident.

[Thorthoth]

We wouldn't play it if it wasn't completely factual.

[waauw]

We wouldn't play it if it wasn't completely factual.

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Depends on whom you ask, maps differ.