Europe must take the matteris into its own hands

[GoranZ]

Europe can no longer count on the US in defense and must take matters into its own hands, German Chancellor Angela Merkel stated during a meeting with French President Emmanuel Macron, who also said: “Something should be done.”

“It’s no longer the case that the United States will simply just protect us,” Merkel said in a speech honoring President Macron, who came to Aachen to receive the prestigious Charlemagne Prize. Receiving a round of applause, Merkel stated: “Rather, Europe needs to take its fate into its own hands. That’s the task for the future.

Europe has to “act together and speak with one voice," she said, as cited by Germany’s Die Welt newspaper. “But let's be honest: Europe is still in its infancy with regard to the common foreign policy.”

Speaking after Merkel, Macron said that “We should not be waiting, we must do something right now. Let us not be weak,” added the French president.

Time to ‘take fate into its own hands’: Europe can’t rely on US protection anymore, says Merkel

German Economy Minister Peter Altmaier said Europe will defend its interests if the US prioritizes its own over others. He also accused Washington of wanting to block a Russia-Germany pipeline to boost its own exports.

Europe will respond firmly if the US places its own economic interests above those of others, Germany Economy Minister Peter Altmaier said on Friday.

"The US are our friends and partners, and we want to defend our common values," Altmaier told ARD public service television.

"But if it's America first, and they put their economic interest before others, then they have to expect Europe to define their own interests and fight for them," he added.

America First? Europe will respond in kind, German minister says

[mrswdk]

Nice to see European leaders publicly acknowledging that one of the world's richest regions has spent decades failing to build its own defense capabilities because it has been assuming it could hide behind America's skirt if there was ever any trouble. Whenever that's come up before they've just stuck their fingers in their ears. Maybe sometime within the next 10-20 years they'll finally stop being pussies and actually build some proper armies.

[GoranZ]

It's not the armies... it's the threat.
Who can potentially threaten Europe? US can threaten military and economically, and Russia can only threaten militarily. Versus US or Russia, Europe can only respond economically.
So basically Russia can't harm Europe without being harmed on its own. US on the other hands can have an advantage, but US desperately needs Europe in order to have any chance with its current efforts against China and Russia. The problem is that Europeans(particularly Germans) are not interested to bleed for the American imperialistic interests.
As you say it next 10-20 years will be very interesting ones, we might see more then two powerful blocks, and each playing for its own interests. Currently we have only one, US/EU and only Chinese and Russians are trying to challenge it.

[Symmetry]

It's not the armies... it's the threat.
Who can potentially threaten Europe? US can threaten military and economically, and Russia can only threaten militarily. Versus US or Russia, Europe can only respond economically.
So basically Russia can't harm Europe without being harmed on its own. US on the other hands can have an advantage, but US desperately needs Europe in order to have any chance with its current efforts against China and Russia. The problem is that Europeans(particularly Germans) are not interested to bleed for the American imperialistic interests.
As you say it next 10-20 years will be very interesting ones, we might see more then two powerful blocks, and each playing for its own interests. Currently we have only one, US/EU and only Chinese and Russians are trying to challenge it.

Flame Removed (Razorvich)

[The ram]

Since when did Merkel care about the safety of European citizens?

Just the next phase in globalisation, a European army. They scream we need to do this for your safety and the majority go along with it. This army will never see combat, they will be formed to stop countries leaving the EU ( we want to leave but we don't have any armed forces to protect our borders anymore, so we need the EU) and to enforce the laws of the unelected on the people.

[Symmetry]

Since when did Merkel care about the safety of European citizens?

Just the next phase in globalisation, a European army. They scream we need to do this for your safety and the majority go along with it. This army will never see combat, they will be formed to stop countries leaving the EU ( we want to leave but we don't have any armed forces to protect our borders anymore, so we need the EU) and to enforce the laws of the unelected on the people.

An interesting take in Brexit. When can we expect the EU stormtroopers?

[nietzsche]

it is one way to make tax money disappear.


"where did those taxes go?"

"oh, if you're truly a patriot, don't ask about that. it went to a super secret fund to build those super smart weapons we need because the the middle east wants to attack our sweet western freedom, we're sure SuperSmartWeapons Inc is giving it good use."

[The ram]

Since when did Merkel care about the safety of European citizens?

Just the next phase in globalisation, a European army. They scream we need to do this for your safety and the majority go along with it. This army will never see combat, they will be formed to stop countries leaving the EU ( we want to leave but we don't have any armed forces to protect our borders anymore, so we need the EU) and to enforce the laws of the unelected on the people.

An interesting take in Brexit. When can we expect the EU stormtroopers?

It's a ploy to stop any further countries leaving. Brexit is too late and probably the major factor behind this idea

[mrswdk]

they will be formed to stop countries leaving the EU ( we want to leave but we don't have any armed forces to protect our borders anymore)

Funny because the UK is one of the only European countries that actually still has a halfway respectable military.

Anyway this was done to death in another thread (although that was lost from the search function in the great Thorthot thread purge). The EU Army is being backed by Marcon, Merkel etc., but the amount of funding they're trying to secure for it is so small that their 'big plans' are essentially to make sure that by 2030 the EU has armed forces capable of suppressing minor civil disturbances in a small Belgian market town, but that's about it. It's not going to be a credible projection of power.

[The ram]

they will be formed to stop countries leaving the EU ( we want to leave but we don't have any armed forces to protect our borders anymore)

Funny because the UK is one of the only European countries that actually still has a halfway respectable military.

Anyway this was done to death in another thread (although that was lost from the search function in the great Thorthot thread purge). The EU Army is being backed by Marcon, Merkel etc., but the amount of funding they're trying to secure for it is so small that their 'big plans' are essentially to make sure that by 2030 the EU has armed forces capable of suppressing minor civil disturbances in a small Belgian market town, but that's about it. It's not going to be a credible projection of power.

You seem to have serious trouble deciphering words put together.

It's part and parcel of globalisation. Take away from one country so they are reliant on others. Much like nationalisation of industry. Give the workers better pay, health and safety, pension benefits etc then shut the industry down as uneconomic and rely on other countries. Of course if you get all your knowledge from the BBC this will seem like a preposterous notion.

[mrswdk]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

[The ram]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

I never said a single thing about the UK. A little clue is the fact that Britain won't be in the EU in 11 months. Do you have any grown-up people in your household? I suggest they proof read anything before you post. There's a good lad.

[Bernie Sanders]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

I never said a single thing about the UK. A little clue is the fact that Britain won't be in the EU in 11 months. Do you have any grown-up people in your household? I suggest they proof read anything before you post. There's a good lad.

Britain will more likely embrace EU since they would be hurt leaving the EU permanently.

This was a temporary rightwing crazy idea to leave EU. Just a hic-up. Sort of America is doing with our foreign policy....just a temporary thing until Trump resigns or gets kicked out of office.

[The ram]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

I never said a single thing about the UK. A little clue is the fact that Britain won't be in the EU in 11 months. Do you have any grown-up people in your household? I suggest they proof read anything before you post. There's a good lad.

Britain will more likely embrace EU since they would be hurt leaving the EU permanently.

This was a temporary rightwing crazy idea to leave EU. Just a hic-up. Sort of America is doing with our foreign policy....just a temporary thing until Trump resigns or gets kicked out of office.

You are right. Once Trump and Putin are out of the way and all pre-1997 educated people are too old to do much, it's going to be socialism at full tilt. You will not survive!

[Bernie Sanders]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

I never said a single thing about the UK. A little clue is the fact that Britain won't be in the EU in 11 months. Do you have any grown-up people in your household? I suggest they proof read anything before you post. There's a good lad.

Britain will more likely embrace EU since they would be hurt leaving the EU permanently.

This was a temporary rightwing crazy idea to leave EU. Just a hic-up. Sort of America is doing with our foreign policy....just a temporary thing until Trump resigns or gets kicked out of office.

You are right. Once Trump and Putin are out of the way and all pre-1997 educated people are too old to do much, it's going to be socialism at full tilt. You will not survive!

I'm a Democratic Socialist, NOT a National Socialist like yourself.

Death to Nazis!

[The ram]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

I never said a single thing about the UK. A little clue is the fact that Britain won't be in the EU in 11 months. Do you have any grown-up people in your household? I suggest they proof read anything before you post. There's a good lad.

Britain will more likely embrace EU since they would be hurt leaving the EU permanently.

This was a temporary rightwing crazy idea to leave EU. Just a hic-up. Sort of America is doing with our foreign policy....just a temporary thing until Trump resigns or gets kicked out of office.

You are right. Once Trump and Putin are out of the way and all pre-1997 educated people are too old to do much, it's going to be socialism at full tilt. You will not survive!

I'm a Democratic Socialist, NOT a National Socialist like yourself.

Death to Nazis!

I've never heard of a democratic socialist bernie. Is that a new type of socialism? Why do you assume I'm a Nazi?

[Bernie Sanders]

I was responding to your claim that the UK doesn't have 'any armed forces to protects [its] borders anymore'. I actually cut out all of the rest of your post in the quote to try and make it clear that that's the part of your post that I was replying to, but somehow that seems to have gone over your head anyway. Try again.

I never said a single thing about the UK. A little clue is the fact that Britain won't be in the EU in 11 months. Do you have any grown-up people in your household? I suggest they proof read anything before you post. There's a good lad.

Britain will more likely embrace EU since they would be hurt leaving the EU permanently.

This was a temporary rightwing crazy idea to leave EU. Just a hic-up. Sort of America is doing with our foreign policy....just a temporary thing until Trump resigns or gets kicked out of office.

You are right. Once Trump and Putin are out of the way and all pre-1997 educated people are too old to do much, it's going to be socialism at full tilt. You will not survive!

I'm a Democratic Socialist, NOT a National Socialist like yourself.

Death to Nazis!

I've never heard of a democratic socialist bernie. Is that a new type of socialism? Why do you assume I'm a Nazi?

Does not surprise me, your ignorance is very noticeable.

[riskllama]

I've never heard of a democratic socialist bernie. Is that a new type of socialism? Why do you assume I'm a Nazi?

probably because he heard someone else call you that and just took it as gospel, best guess - fake bern is kind of stupid that way, hope that helps...

[HitRed]

Nice to see European leaders publicly acknowledging that one of the world's richest regions has spent decades failing to build its own defense capabilities because it has been assuming it could hide behind America's skirt if there was ever any trouble. Whenever that's come up before they've just stuck their fingers in their ears. Maybe sometime within the next 10-20 years they'll finally stop being pussies and actually build some proper armies.

[waauw]

Seems only 14% of germans consider the USA a reliable partner, whilst 36% consider Russia reliable and 43% China. Good job Trump, even Bush jr. was more likeable.

https://www.zdf.de/politik/politbarometer/grosse-mehrheit-usa-kein-verlaesslicher-partner-100.html

[patches70]

Yes, the EU should raise their own military forces and take care of their own security. The Spanish can build the EU navy, a second Spanish Armada, and install glass hulls so they can get a real good look at the first Spanish Armada. The French can contribute the main Army of the EU so they can surrender to the first foe they face. The Germans, of course, should contribute the Armored divisions. That way while the French troops are surrendering the Germans can be busy fixing their tanks which, of course, will be broken. I suppose all the nations of the EU can contribute whatever working Air Forces they have. I figure they might be able to get one or two Air Wings in the air, the rest, of course, will be grounded because they are waiting on spare parts which are late in arriving because Europeans mail services are on holiday. It's hard to deliver stuff when you have guys only working ten hours a week.

Of course the real strength of an EU Grand Military will be the administrative side which will be manned 1000 to 1 to combat troops. Forms have to be filled, refilled, filed in triplicate, rewritten because they get lost, resubmitted yet again due to clerical errors just to be yet again lost. Government workers, whadda ya expect?

Sounds like a great plan!

[patches70]

On a more serious note, where I work we have this machine called a "Slitter Rewinder". It takes great big rolls of (in this case) film which we cut down into smaller rolls to use to produce the products we produce.
The Slitter uses razor blades to cut the film in air. We run millions of meters of material through the slitter, tons of the stuff. Anyways, just this week we are down to just ten blades.

Now these blades you can't just go down to the local Walmart and get. These blades are Tungsten blades, super expensive, just one of these blades can cost between $15-$25 apiece. The last time we ordered some of these blades was way back in January of 2016. We ordered 50 of them. Now this is before my time at the company, and before the Plant Manager's time at the company. We had to go back through the old Purchase orders to find out where we got them before.

That last batch was purchased from a company in the UK. Those 50 blades by themselves cost over $750 two years ago. On the order was also the cost of shipping, which was $107. Then on top of that was a VAT tax. My Plant Manager was sending emails to the UK company to get current pricing and such on blades. I took a few minutes to research the exact same blades from an American company I had ordered 5 blades (ceramic blades) from a few months ago to trial on the material to see if they'd fix a problem we were having which is unimportant to this topic. This American company had the exact same Tungsten blades that we had gotten from the UK two year ago. The price of the blades is currently $18 apiece from this American company. From the UK company two years ago the same blades were $15 apiece two years ago. Adding in shipping and VAT the price per blade increases to just over $17 apiece.

I told the Plant Manager about this and as soon as he finds out the price from the UK company, I'm betting they'll be at least $18 apiece, plus shipping of over $100 and a VAT tax added. Not to mention the headache of customs.
Shipping from the American company will be less than $20 and the price quoted, $18 apiece, is taxes included. I am already 100% sure that we'll save a shitload of money by ordering from the American company rather than the UK company. f*ck the UK and their blades, we can make 'em here and for cheaper overall than the UK ever could, or any other European blade company for that matter. Plus the shipping is magnitudes cheaper and would arrive long before anything from the EU could ever arrive. and the quality will be just as good if not better, though to be fair, Tungsten blades are gonna be high quality regardless anywhere ya get em

I don't have anything against the UK or EU products, but for what purpose should me or the company I work for pay more for something from Europe when we can get the exact same thing here? I about lost my shit when I saw the price paid two years ago. The previous owners of the company didn't do their due diligence or something. Some shenanigans at worse, blind stupidity at best.

In fact, we are moving away from foreign vendors of the things we need. We get a lot of our film from South Korea, a fair amount from Germany as well. The German film is good stuff, I'll grant you that, but it's expensive. The film from Asia is junk, but it's cheap, cheaper than dirt. But ordering these products from Germany and Asia is a headache. Payment has to be done by wire transfers which is a pain in the ass dealing with banks and such. Then there is customs. Not to mention forecasting. From the moment film is ordered to the day it arrives is three months or more. Good luck forecasting company needs with that amount of turnover time! It makes it hard to meet changing needs of our customers when we can't get the film we need in plant quickly. And this kind of film can't just be ordered in large quantities and allowed to sit and wait, it has a shelf life. Forecasting is paramount.

But a few counties away from the location of our company is an American film producer. We can use a freaking credit card to order the film and it'll be here in less than a week depending on lead time (they gotta produce the film after all, that can take time. This isn't stuff that can be made and set on a shelf like a grocery store). We are running trials replacing the German and Asian film with American produced films because it makes a hell of a lot of business sense to do so. Not only is it better for us and our company, it's better for our countrymen, our economy. It won't be much longer when Germany loses another customer because pricing, hassles, taxes and customs is expensive.


TL:DR Europe has some good stuff, but it's too expensive, too much of a hassle and over taxed. Buy local is better. Asian goods are trash, not worth the effort to line a cat box. So yeah, Europe has gotta start taking matters into their own hands because people in the US are getting tired of dealing with the EU and overpaying because Europeans just wanna work 25 hours a week along with craddle to grave social services.

[Neoteny]

Craddle to grave

[The ram]

On a more serious note, where I work we have this machine called a "Slitter Rewinder". It takes great big rolls of (in this case) film which we cut down into smaller rolls to use to produce the products we produce.
The Slitter uses razor blades to cut the film in air. We run millions of meters of material through the slitter, tons of the stuff. Anyways, just this week we are down to just ten blades.

Now these blades you can't just go down to the local Walmart and get. These blades are Tungsten blades, super expensive, just one of these blades can cost between $15-$25 apiece. The last time we ordered some of these blades was way back in January of 2016. We ordered 50 of them. Now this is before my time at the company, and before the Plant Manager's time at the company. We had to go back through the old Purchase orders to find out where we got them before.

That last batch was purchased from a company in the UK. Those 50 blades by themselves cost over $750 two years ago. On the order was also the cost of shipping, which was $107. Then on top of that was a VAT tax. My Plant Manager was sending emails to the UK company to get current pricing and such on blades. I took a few minutes to research the exact same blades from an American company I had ordered 5 blades (ceramic blades) from a few months ago to trial on the material to see if they'd fix a problem we were having which is unimportant to this topic. This American company had the exact same Tungsten blades that we had gotten from the UK two year ago. The price of the blades is currently $18 apiece from this American company. From the UK company two years ago the same blades were $15 apiece two years ago. Adding in shipping and VAT the price per blade increases to just over $17 apiece.

I told the Plant Manager about this and as soon as he finds out the price from the UK company, I'm betting they'll be at least $18 apiece, plus shipping of over $100 and a VAT tax added. Not to mention the headache of customs.
Shipping from the American company will be less than $20 and the price quoted, $18 apiece, is taxes included. I am already 100% sure that we'll save a shitload of money by ordering from the American company rather than the UK company. f*ck the UK and their blades, we can make 'em here and for cheaper overall than the UK ever could, or any other European blade company for that matter. Plus the shipping is magnitudes cheaper and would arrive long before anything from the EU could ever arrive. and the quality will be just as good if not better, though to be fair, Tungsten blades are gonna be high quality regardless anywhere ya get em

I don't have anything against the UK or EU products, but for what purpose should me or the company I work for pay more for something from Europe when we can get the exact same thing here? I about lost my shit when I saw the price paid two years ago. The previous owners of the company didn't do their due diligence or something. Some shenanigans at worse, blind stupidity at best.

In fact, we are moving away from foreign vendors of the things we need. We get a lot of our film from South Korea, a fair amount from Germany as well. The German film is good stuff, I'll grant you that, but it's expensive. The film from Asia is junk, but it's cheap, cheaper than dirt. But ordering these products from Germany and Asia is a headache. Payment has to be done by wire transfers which is a pain in the ass dealing with banks and such. Then there is customs. Not to mention forecasting. From the moment film is ordered to the day it arrives is three months or more. Good luck forecasting company needs with that amount of turnover time! It makes it hard to meet changing needs of our customers when we can't get the film we need in plant quickly. And this kind of film can't just be ordered in large quantities and allowed to sit and wait, it has a shelf life. Forecasting is paramount.

But a few counties away from the location of our company is an American film producer. We can use a freaking credit card to order the film and it'll be here in less than a week depending on lead time (they gotta produce the film after all, that can take time. This isn't stuff that can be made and set on a shelf like a grocery store). We are running trials replacing the German and Asian film with American produced films because it makes a hell of a lot of business sense to do so. Not only is it better for us and our company, it's better for our countrymen, our economy. It won't be much longer when Germany loses another customer because pricing, hassles, taxes and customs is expensive.


TL:DR Europe has some good stuff, but it's too expensive, too much of a hassle and over taxed. Buy local is better. Asian goods are trash, not worth the effort to line a cat box. So yeah, Europe has gotta start taking matters into their own hands because people in the US are getting tired of dealing with the EU and overpaying because Europeans just wanna work 25 hours a week along with craddle to grave social services.

The fact that the EU charges such high taxes means they already took matters into their own hands. Less competitive rates from individual countries.

[waauw]

TL:DR Europe has some good stuff, but it's too expensive, too much of a hassle and over taxed. Buy local is better. Asian goods are trash, not worth the effort to line a cat box. So yeah, Europe has gotta start taking matters into their own hands because people in the US are getting tired of dealing with the EU and overpaying because Europeans just wanna work 25 hours a week along with craddle to grave social services.

Go ahead. Gamble on protectionism and trade wars. Meanwhile the EU, Russia, China and India are betting on increasing mutual trade. If the USA wants to pull back, that's fine by us. Let the silk road once again become the center for world trade.

PS: maybe you should ask China what happened when they withdrew from global trade centuries ago