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Kids in Cages- border separation thread

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Worst excuse for border separations

It's not happening (Kirstjen Nielsen)
0
No votes
It's the Democrats' fault (Donald Trump)
8
40%
It's how the Apostle Paul would do it (Jeff Sessions)
1
5%
It's Biblical (Sarah Huckabee Sanders)
1
5%
It's a deterrence (John Kelly)
2
10%
They're not cages, they're chain link walls (Steve Doocy)
0
No votes
It's like Summer Camp (Laura Ingraham)
3
15%
Other (please state)
2
10%
Kittens (are cute)
3
15%
 
Total votes : 20

Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby KoolBak on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:46 pm

Keefie wrote:This is the United States of America, founded by immigrants, a democracy to be proud of, leader of the free world and a Christian country.

Make America great again - what a joke. I'd be ashamed if I was an American, as a Brit I'm just disgusted.

f*ck off Trump, you're a disgraceful pathetic bully.

He'll see what the UK thinks of him when he visits next month. They'll be thousands and thousands taking to the streets to protest.


Oh no! The english don't like us! :lol: So what else is new?
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca

AND:
riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby armati on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:58 pm

I Remember When America Was A Free Country

Paul Craig Roberts

Dear Readers, In the Western World truth, justice, and liberty are in total collapse. They cannot be resurrected and restored without information. Few people have that information. The young are born into what exists, and as the tyranny increases year by year, tyranny becomes the natural order to them. Indeed, they do not recognize tyranny. Their cell phones, social media, and the Internet give them the illusion of freedom. The old are lost in the controversies of their time: The Russians are communists, only hippies, left-wingers, and communists distrust the great and good US government. In short, the vast bulk of the American people havenā€™t a clue. When readers ask me to tell them the solution, what to do, my answer is that nothing can be done until enough people are informed. Informing is my job. Support my efforts and those of a few others whose only agenda is to inform.

In America, and throughout the Western world, it is harder and harder to speak the truth. Indeed, truth is such a devalued virtue that to speak it almost qualifies one as a criminal. If you want truth spoken, you must support it.

Now for the column:
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:59 pm

KoolBak wrote:
Keefie wrote:This is the United States of America, founded by immigrants, a democracy to be proud of, leader of the free world and a Christian country.

Make America great again - what a joke. I'd be ashamed if I was an American, as a Brit I'm just disgusted.

f*ck off Trump, you're a disgraceful pathetic bully.

He'll see what the UK thinks of him when he visits next month. They'll be thousands and thousands taking to the streets to protest.


Oh no! The english don't like us! :lol: So what else is new?


He said f*ck off Trump....not America you dweeb.

Don't be a cunt to our allies. Trump has insulted our allies and heaps praises to tyrants in Russia, North Korea and China.

Fuk Trump!
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby KoolBak on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:56 pm

I'd be ashamed if I was an American, as a Brit I'm just disgusted.

f*ck off Burn.
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca

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riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:25 pm

armati wrote:I Remember When America Was A Free Country

Paul Craig Roberts

Dear Readers, In the Western World truth, justice, and liberty are in total collapse. They cannot be resurrected and restored without information. Few people have that information. The young are born into what exists, and as the tyranny increases year by year, tyranny becomes the natural order to them. Indeed, they do not recognize tyranny. Their cell phones, social media, and the Internet give them the illusion of freedom. The old are lost in the controversies of their time: The Russians are communists, only hippies, left-wingers, and communists distrust the great and good US government. In short, the vast bulk of the American people havenā€™t a clue. When readers ask me to tell them the solution, what to do, my answer is that nothing can be done until enough people are informed. Informing is my job. Support my efforts and those of a few others whose only agenda is to inform.

In America, and throughout the Western world, it is harder and harder to speak the truth. Indeed, truth is such a devalued virtue that to speak it almost qualifies one as a criminal. If you want truth spoken, you must support it.

Now for the column:


Truth is dead, your truth is as wrong and invalid as everyone else's armati.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby HitRed on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:48 pm

Trump signed an executive order ending the practice. This will violate the 1997 law by Congress...so someone will sue and a judge will block the order. So in about a month or so we'll be back in the same mess.

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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:01 pm

Hurray for Trump - ending Bush and Obama's policies of brutalizing poor Latin American children.

Trump slowly but surely tackling America's gross abuses of the world's human rights!
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby patches70 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:33 pm

There is a lot of stupidity and emotion in this thread.

Time for some truth, some reality.

This is not a question of ethics or morality, it's a question of law. Immigration is a question of law. Political asylum is a question of law.
When ever there is a question of law there is a procedure that is laid out, that's how law functions.

Every nation on the planet has the sovereign right to know who is coming and going from it's borders. Period. There is no middle ground, there are no "maybe's". Every nation on the Earth operates like this.
When making the argument "it's the right thing to do" or "we have to help people" is moronic because people making this argument are completely ignoring costs. Because there are only a finite amount of resources and time, unmitigated charity is a path to sure destitution.
For instance, you living in your house get a knock on your door. It's a family that is homeless and needs help. Perhaps you can give them some food, maybe even have a room they can use in your home until they get on their feet. But if it's ten families, you won't have the resources, the space or the time to help them all. You'd have no choice to turn some or all of them away, otherwise you'd be cutting your own throat because you have limited resources. It's the same for nations, including the US, which while shortly become clear once you understand the process.

On the subject of political asylum, one poster in this thread thinks the US are scumbags because the asylum seekers are fleeing from El Salvador Death Squads. That it is wrong for the US to separate these families. I can say without hesitation that any asylum seeker entering the US through any Port of Entry and requests political asylum, their families will not be broken up. That is the legal way to seek asylum. However, if you enter the country through any other means other than a Port of Entry, then you have illegally entered the country whether you are seeking asylum or not. This is important, which I'll get to shortly.

Those who go through the legal means of seeking asylum, they are interviewed of course. It helps if the person has plenty of documentation, it'll speed up the process. Now this is legal petition for asylum I'm talking about. First, the person's identity has to be verified, that means getting in contact with their home nation to confirm the paper work the person has. That takes time. Then there is the process by which the merits of the claim must be ascertained and confirmed. If so, then there will be medical exams for each member of the family. No one is getting in infected with Small Pox for instance. Every person has to be examined by a doctor, legal and illegal entries. Remember the thing about resources and time and the limits thereof? That takes doctors. Those doctors can only examine a set number of people per day.
Then there are the court hearings, a judge has to grant the asylum. Only a set number of people can be processed through court.

Now you can say, "add more doctors, add more judges and courts!" But there are only a finite amount of doctors, judges, time and space. Every doctor you have examining legal and illegal immigrants and asylum seekers is another less doctor serving American communities, American citizens. Then there is the cost, this is all fronted by Uncle Sam who is already spending $1trillion a year more than he takes in in revenues. So there are not unlimited resources or money.

The illegal asylum seeker on the other hand, has the above issues to deal with but also has the added issue of being arrested for illegally entering the country. Yes, they are arrested and detained. They are in jail. This is where children are separated, because no judge is going to send a kid into jail with the parents. Before the parents can even entertain their claim of the asylum they first must get through the issue of their illegal entry. That's a trial, it takes weeks, months even to resolve one way or another.

Immigrants coming through Port of Entries are also subject to alot of the same procedures. All their information has to be verified. Doctor examinations, court, etc etc. Then they may be issued allowance to enter the country and begin the process of integration, and it takes years and they are at the back of the line, but if all goes well they can wait their time in country building a relationship with the nation, which is critical from a legal standpoint.

Every single person who enters the country through a means other than a Port of Entry is the reason everything gets all fucked up, legal wise and procedure wise. Then there are the cases of the unaccompanied minors, which a large number of these children are in the shelters. Also there are the child smugglers. Any child that tries to enter the country with anyone other than their parents are immediately separated from that person(s). Which makes sense because the US doesn't want to let child smuggling go on, that's a legal, moral and ethical morass for obvious reasons. We also can't allow drug dealers, murderers, rapists or otherwise criminals into the country. I think no one would disagree with that I'd hope. The only way it can be ascertained that these people aren't such, is to have a process and procedure to properly vet each and every person.

Every single person who enters through any means other than Port of Entries is fucking up that process, procedure and vetting for not only themselves, but for everyone else as well.

Finite time, resources and space limit the amount of people that can be processed properly. That's why people are supposed to enter the country through Ports of Entry. Any other entrance into the country should not be encouraged by anyone, regardless of what you think the right thing to do is, or who you wish things should be or any other reason. It doesn't matter if the person entering is entering because they want to become an American citizen or are fleeing Death Squads. They should all be coming in through Ports of Entry, period. Any other method only further stresses the limited time and resources that can be devoted to processing these individuals.
The US doesn't separate children from legally entering families.
Illegally entering the country, all bets are off.
Legal or illegal, each and every person has to go through the legal system regardless. By entering illegally that legal question has to be dealt with through the courts, and that takes time.

Even if you think this sucks, it doesn't matter because there is no other alternative until we human beings can achieve infinite resources and energy, which is obviously impossible because there is also the time element as well. It all takes time. Imagine trying to get anywhere where everyone is butting in line, the chaos, the wasted time and energy trying to sort this mess out in a responsible and legal manner.

Trump's executive order is worthless because it's going to clash with Statutory Law that is the process. Unaccompanied minors are going into a shelter no matter what until they can properly paired with responsible parties, be it their parents or foster parents. Illegal immigrants (those who cross into the country outside Port of Entries) will be detained (Read:Jailed) and you can bet no judge is going to through their children in jail with them, they'll go to a shelter until their parents resolve their legal question.


Now I know the OP is full of shit, because I bet the OP can't point to a single mention of this issue pre Trump, because this process has been Statutory Law for decades. It happened under Obama, Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush, so on and so forth. The OP's only purpose on this forum that I can ascertain is to troll and breed dissension. This thread is yet another poor attempt to do so being as the OP has no idea the legalities of entering the US, because that's what it is, a legal question. All talk of morals, ethics or emotion is worth nothing more than opinion, and well all know what opinion is worth. Not a damn thing. The OP never cared about this until now.

The Dems are the same way. They know this has been going on because it's just the legal process under which entrants to the country are processed. They jump on it now because they think they can ride this pony to the midterms, but the more people keep talking about it the more the actual information about the legalities of immigration, asylum seeking become known. The Dems don't want this issue "solved" because they think this is finally the winning issue they can beat Trump with and win back the House and Senate.
I'm happy to inform you all that this pony ain't gonna get that far because you can sure as Hell bet that Congress isn't going to legislate a thing to solve this problem. The children these politicians claim to care about now, all of a sudden, are nothing more than a means to an end.

And that's the fucking truth. If anyone can solve the problem of finite resources, time and space, then by all means, push it, with a Nobel Prize in virtually every category and become fabulously rich in the process because such a thing is akin to perpetual motion. It's a nice fairy tale but it has no bearing on reality what so ever. Reality if a fucking bitch. All of you try to live in it if you can manage. Otherwise, enjoy your delusions.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm

Wall of text.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby HitRed on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:46 pm

Conditions inside North Korean prison camps are unsanitary and life-threatening. Prisoners are subject to torture and inhumane treatment. Public and secret executions of prisoners, even children, especially in cases of attempted escape are commonplace. Infanticides (and infant killings upon birth) also often occur. The mortality rate is very high, because many prisoners die of starvation, illnesses, work accidents, or torture. But nobody on CC cares because Trump isn't in charge.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:32 pm

That's a good comparison, because North Korea is the only other country in the world that detains as many of its citizens in prison as the US.

Let's see:

  • Police brutality and murder of citizens - check
  • Huge amounts of people locked up for even trivial offenses - check
  • Routine abuse of prisoner human rights - check
  • Murder of own and others' citizens outside own national borders - check
  • Vast security forces spying on own citizens - check
  • Warmonger presidents living in luxury - check
  • Politicians for life enriching themselves through abuse of their offices - check
  • Constant fear of violence and murder, for both adults and children - check

Looks like living in America isn't much different to living in North Korea.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:40 pm

The ram wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:
The ram wrote:
HitRed wrote:If they have a valid reason to believe their life is in danger they can surrender at a point of entry.

Your getting caught up in the stories and not looking at the facts. WHO is endangering the children??? Clearly the parents.


You're banging your head against a brick wall trying to talk sense to these mongoloids. Just let them talk their shit amongst themselves, just because 10 mongoloids agree with each other it's still wrong to a bloke with an ounce of sense!


Mongoloids?

Do you boys have children? Are you guys real Christians who believe in Jesus Christ?

The one thing I do know about you two is this.....political party loyalty over humanity, family, compassion and common sense.


I have 3 kids Bern. Whose future I put well above that of any mother fucker that's willing to put their own children through cruelty for their own selfishness.


Spoken like a pampered buffoon who has the good fortune to live in a First World country. If you were living in a Third World country, and the only thing your children could look forward to was starvation, beatings by paramilitary thugs, and (best case) exploitation in some sweat shop at subsistence wages, you would change your tune real quick. You would swim rivers, cross mountains, and forge documents as required to reach a place where you could actually make a life for yourself.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:41 pm

Dukasaur wrote:If you were living in a Third World country, and the only thing your children could look forward to was starvation, beatings by paramilitary thugs, and (best case) exploitation in some sweat shop at subsistence wages


You have a really weird world view.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby notyou2 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:48 pm

This policy can clearly be compared to something you would see out of a third world dictatorship.

America, land of the formerly free!!!
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:52 pm

People stopped saying 'Third World' round about the time that movie stars stopped advertising cigarettes, guys.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm

mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If you were living in a Third World country, and the only thing your children could look forward to was starvation, beatings by paramilitary thugs, and (best case) exploitation in some sweat shop at subsistence wages


You have a really weird world view.


I know these things seem weird to you. When you're hungry, you ring a bell and Jeeves comes running with a platter of canapƩs.

I've spent most of my life among people who work for a living. My perspective may seem odd to you, certainly.

I've never been hungry for any really long period (though there were a few months when I had nothing but plain potatoes) but I've seen real hunger while traveling. In Guatemala, I was in a convoy with a bunch of Mormon missionaries. I saw them buying babies in poor villages. Depending on the villagers' haggling skills, they would get between $40 and $80 per baby (mind you, this was in '76 -- the going rate has probably gone up). The Mormons would get up to $20,000 per, once they got them back to the states and "placed" them with some middle-class American couple with defective gonads. The mestizo mothers would bawl and bawl, but the missionaries would patiently explain that by sending the child to America, it would have a chance to actually go to school and not be constantly hungry like everyone else in the village, at which point the parents would reluctantly accept.

Until you've seen real poverty and real suffering, you have no idea.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:32 pm

I am well aware there are people who live in poverty. I was just questioning your caricature of 'Third World countries' in which starving kids are being beaten up by the paramilitary on their way to their sweat shop job.

If the job pays subsistence wages, why are the kids also starving? Are the paramilitary stealing their wages from them?
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 pm

mrswdk wrote:I am well aware there are people who live in poverty. I was just questioning your caricature of 'Third World countries' in which starving kids are being beaten up by the paramilitary on their way to their sweat shop job.

If the job pays subsistence wages, why are the kids also starving? Are the paramilitary stealing their wages from them?


Often, yes.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:12 pm

And then after the paramilitary steal their wages they probably get abducted by a witch doctor and have their organs stolen :(
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby armati on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:15 pm

@mookiemcgee

wow, thats insightful.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby HitRed on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:43 pm

Matamoros. My dad and I were walking through the town (cobblestone streets and not much else) and a women rushes up to me and shoves a baby wrapped in a off-white blanket into my arms. She was frantic, screaming at the top of her lungs for me to take her baby. Out of nowhere comes a police van and two cop cars sirens blaring. They screech to a halt and police with machine guns jump from the the back of the van. They grab the women and toss her like a rag doll through the air into the van. Rushing at me was one policeman dressed in black, bullet proof vest, mask and an ammo belt. He grabs the baby and throws it like a foot ball 30 feet or more into the back of the van! The doors are slammed shut and they were gone.

That is the government. The cartels are worse.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:26 pm

HitRed wrote:Matamoros. My dad and I were walking through the town (cobblestone streets and not much else) and a women rushes up to me and shoves a baby wrapped in a off-white blanket into my arms. She was frantic, screaming at the top of her lungs for me to take her baby. Out of nowhere comes a police van and two cop cars sirens blaring. They screech to a halt and police with machine guns jump from the the back of the van. They grab the women and toss her like a rag doll through the air into the van. Rushing at me was one policeman dressed in black, bullet proof vest, mask and an ammo belt. He grabs the baby and throws it like a foot ball 30 feet or more into the back of the van! The doors are slammed shut and they were gone.

That is the government. The cartels are worse.

Cool story bro
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby mrswdk on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:10 am

One time I was in Thailand and I saw the police kidnapping children from a primary school so they could sell them as sex slaves. Worst part was that the headmaster came out not to stop them but to give them cigarettes. This is just life in the Third World.
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:54 am

mrswdk wrote:One time I was in Thailand and I saw the police kidnapping children from a primary school so they could sell them as sex slaves. Worst part was that the headmaster came out not to stop them but to give them cigarettes. This is just life in the Third World.



Is that how you ended up in London working in the backroom of a massage parlor?
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Re: Kids in Cages- border separation thread

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:26 am

The ram wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:
The ram wrote:
HitRed wrote:If they have a valid reason to believe their life is in danger they can surrender at a point of entry.

Your getting caught up in the stories and not looking at the facts. WHO is endangering the children??? Clearly the parents.


You're banging your head against a brick wall trying to talk sense to these mongoloids. Just let them talk their shit amongst themselves, just because 10 mongoloids agree with each other it's still wrong to a bloke with an ounce of sense!


Mongoloids?

Do you boys have children? Are you guys real Christians who believe in Jesus Christ?

The one thing I do know about you two is this.....political party loyalty over humanity, family, compassion and common sense.


I have 3 kids Bern. Whose future I put well above that of any mother fucker that's willing to put their own children through cruelty for their own selfishness.



You are a failed human being. You lost your humanity.

Oh lookie here.....Trump reverses himself and is now against the separation of children from their parents.

Trump says it's all President Obama's fault, tee-hee. Fuking Trumpeteers are thee must ignorant and disgusting people in America. I think we should send them back on the Mayflower with a one way ticket to Europe.



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