America The Land of the Free

[DoomYoshi]

My grandmother explains immigration really well.
"When we moved to Canada it was very diverse. There were some British people, some Germans and some Italians. It was a great neighbourhood. Then the sikhs moved in and they started sitting on all the benches at the mall and now it's no good anymore."

[Symmetry]

TGD, we accept many refugees that enter the country illegally, especially if they are persecuted in their homeland.

There were some African guys that walked across from the US (Minnesota I think) in the winter and lost fingers and ears to frost bite. US wouldn't take them, we did.

Good for you. The US also takes refugees and many more immigrants than Canada. Both the US and Canada have immigration laws. Both the US and Canada enforce immigration laws. If the only reason the US is no longer the land of the free is because of the rhetoric (not actions because other presidents have done the same thing) of the current president, then singling out the US is stupid.

Per capita, Canada has a higher rate of immigration than the US- in fact, more than double.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada#Immigration_rate

You're not wrong, TGD, but you may only have half of the story.

I'm not so much supporting US policy (because I don't support current (or past) US immigration policy). I'm more interested in the political upheaval and general anger directed at the United States for enforcing immigration laws that virtually every developed country has and enforces (some more stringently than the US).

It can certainly be a kind of scapegoat issue- there's a long history of MAGA like politicians around the world using immigrants to stir up xenophobic nationalism.

[thegreekdog]

Right - rhetoric. There are not actual substantive differences in policy between Trump and Obama/Bush/Clinton.

[DoomYoshi]

This is a PSA.

What to when someone says "wake up sheeple"

While this phrase almost always indicates the user is too far off the deep end to even attempt to bring back to reality; it is not an impossible matter, for most of the "WAKE UP" drones, anyway. Start Engaging in a conversation with as much logic and proof data contradicting the specimen as much as possible. Continuing to engage in a conversation will most likely result in a million ad hominem attacks, or 'logic' so brain-meltingly horrifying that it may make you lose faith in humanity. But, DO NOT GIVE UP! Remember in your mind the fact that all are born with an empty memory which is later filled with truth and "bullshit disguised as truth." Thus, while in the mind of the "WAKE UP" messenger, any attempts to reason merely confirm the existence of brain-dead, conforming sheeple, it also chips away at their faith. So, keep going if you got nothing better to do.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wake_up

[notyou2]

TGD, we accept many refugees that enter the country illegally, especially if they are persecuted in their homeland.

There were some African guys that walked across from the US (Minnesota I think) in the winter and lost fingers and ears to frost bite. US wouldn't take them, we did.

Good for you. The US also takes refugees and many more immigrants than Canada. Both the US and Canada have immigration laws. Both the US and Canada enforce immigration laws. If the only reason the US is no longer the land of the free is because of the rhetoric (not actions because other presidents have done the same thing) of the current president, then singling out the US is stupid.

Read the original post. This wasn't about immigration, other posters made it about immigration. You sure you're a lawyer?

I was talking about a loss of rights of citizens, Citizens, CITIZENS!!!

[patches70]

I was talking about a loss of rights of citizens, Citizens, CITIZENS!!!

And it's all Trump's fault, right?

[notyou2]

This is a PSA.

What to when someone says "wake up sheeple"

While this phrase almost always indicates the user is too far off the deep end to even attempt to bring back to reality; it is not an impossible matter, for most of the "WAKE UP" drones, anyway. Start Engaging in a conversation with as much logic and proof data contradicting the specimen as much as possible. Continuing to engage in a conversation will most likely result in a million ad hominem attacks, or 'logic' so brain-meltingly horrifying that it may make you lose faith in humanity. But, DO NOT GIVE UP! Remember in your mind the fact that all are born with an empty memory which is later filled with truth and "bullshit disguised as truth." Thus, while in the mind of the "WAKE UP" messenger, any attempts to reason merely confirm the existence of brain-dead, conforming sheeple, it also chips away at their faith. So, keep going if you got nothing better to do.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wake_up

OK DY, I'm off the deep end. Meanwhile, you should just roll over and play dead and ignore the loss of freedoms and rights WE ARE ALL EXPERIENCING.

[notyou2]

I was talking about a loss of rights of citizens, Citizens, CITIZENS!!!

And it's all Trump's fault, right?

If you insist peaches, but it actually started under Bush senior.

[patches70]

I was talking about a loss of rights of citizens, Citizens, CITIZENS!!!

And it's all Trump's fault, right?

If you insist peaches, but it actually started under Bush senior.

Oh, we could go a lot further back than that!

In general I'm with ya though about the eroding of rights. I tend to not just blame one or the other political party or one or another President. Probably the one who has the most blame is the person you see when you look in the mirror...
Well maybe not you, if you're Canadian, but subjects of the British Empire really were short on Rights anyway.
IMO.

[notyou2]

I was talking about a loss of rights of citizens, Citizens, CITIZENS!!!

And it's all Trump's fault, right?

If you insist peaches, but it actually started under Bush senior.

Oh, we could go a lot further back than that!

In general I'm with ya though about the eroding of rights. I tend to not just blame one or the other political party or one or another President. Probably the one who has the most blame is the person you see when you look in the mirror...
Well maybe not you, if you're Canadian, but subjects of the British Empire really were short on Rights anyway.
IMO.

As colonials, you are absolutely correct, and even for many years after we became a nation. However, that has certainly changed for Canada. I expect now we have more freedom than Americans, but I could be wrong. We too are losing rights, all in the name of security. I believe the "security" they are referring to is not terrorism, but to keep us under wraps from civil disobedience.

Perhaps it did start sooner, but Bush Sr made the most dramatic and drastic changes in the shortest period. Basically "terrorism" was a licence to trample rights.

[patches70]

As colonials, you are absolutely correct, and even for many years after we became a nation. However, that has certainly changed for Canada. I expect now we have more freedom than Americans, but I could be wrong. We too are losing rights, all in the name of security. I believe the "security" they are referring to is not terrorism, but to keep us under wraps from civil disobedience.

Perhaps it did start sooner, but Bush Sr made the most dramatic and drastic changes in the shortest period. Basically "terrorism" was a licence to trample rights.

I can't speak for Canada, you'd know more about that than I. I think, probably the most significant thing for the US, you'd have to go all the way back to 1913 when in the dead of night on Christmas eve when no one was paying attention, the Income Tax Amendment was passed. That was the true beginning I think, because it gave credence to the idea that the government is entitled to a portion citizen's sweat and labor.


When a man, a government, a group, an ideology, thinks they have a right to take a portion of your labors without your consent. Once that idea takes hold, and politicians and government being what they are, that sense of entitlement just grows and grows and grows by using all sorts of coercion. Things like "it's for the children", or "your fair share" or the myth of the social contract and then go and misuse that which they take. Which simply prompts them to come back for more and more and more.

It's theft, plain and simple. For if you do not give over that portion then by the whip, the lash or the bayonet they will get their pound of flesh.
So it is written, so it is done.

[notyou2]

I don't mind paying a fair share of taxes for schools, roads, fire departments, hospitals, etc., but it seems the rich are not paying their share and are exerting more influence on all levels of government than all the peoples combined exert. The corporations are controlling us and our governments. We have become slaves of the system.

[Dukasaur]

Well maybe not you, if you're Canadian, but subjects of the British Empire really were short on Rights anyway.

Quite the opposite. Most of the rights that Americans congratulate themselves for are rights they already had when they were British subjects. Why was the Bill of Rights enacted in the first place? Because people were pissed off that the new Constitution didn't give them basic rights that they already enjoyed prior to the Revolution, under the English Bill of Rights, the Magna Carta, and the common law.

Today, rights remain strong in the remaining British dominions, while in the U.S. they are steadily eroded. The alphabet soup of federal agencies has made an utter mockery of such things as the limitations on search and seizure.

Just as one example: In Canada I still cannot be arrested unless I am charged with a crime, immediately, or held as a material witness to a crime that is specified to me, immediately. There's no such thing as an arrest "on suspicion." In the U.K, I could be held "on suspicion" for 24 hours. In most U.S. states, it's 72 hours, except in a few where it's 48.

Our laws are similar on the surface, but when you dig deeper you find that almost all protections have been more deeply eroded in American law than in Canadian or British law.

[DoomYoshi]

All in all, the American Revolutionary War was a fight to legitimize slavery and the stealing of native lands. Those are the two principles America was founded on and the two principles that made it a superpower. As long as it continues to promote equality it will sink. Terror and tyranny, cruelty and coercion are the only way to usher in a new era of American hegemony.

And I was just trolling you earlier ny2.

[patches70]

Yep, Duk, the Crown was keen on their subjects having the right to bear arms.
Yep, the Crown was also keen on subject being secure in their person and their papers (that's all ripped to shreds now though, all over the Western world isn't it, Duk? The justification if they gotta spy on us to keep us safe, eh?
Yep, the Crown was keen on Freedom of Press, the Crown would have never arrested or harassed someone who was critical of the Crown would they? (Though in the US the Press have become Presstitutes)

Freedom of speech is a big one the Crown always did and still holds tru. Just look at all those anti hate speech laws the US has...

And how about that 8th amendment which basically bans debtor's prisons. The Crown never had debtor's prisons though, did they?

But yeah, Duk, go ahead and keep thinking the US is the lesser State, that's fine, it doesn't hurt my feelings at all. It's good and proper that you have pride in your own country and look down on all the rest of the heathen nations that are but shadows compared to your own great nation.
I mean that sincerely BTW. The US is always gonna be the whipping boy except in the cases where the US is whipping some poor bastard nation as she's prone to do all too often.

[thegreekdog]

TGD, we accept many refugees that enter the country illegally, especially if they are persecuted in their homeland.

There were some African guys that walked across from the US (Minnesota I think) in the winter and lost fingers and ears to frost bite. US wouldn't take them, we did.

Good for you. The US also takes refugees and many more immigrants than Canada. Both the US and Canada have immigration laws. Both the US and Canada enforce immigration laws. If the only reason the US is no longer the land of the free is because of the rhetoric (not actions because other presidents have done the same thing) of the current president, then singling out the US is stupid.

Read the original post. This wasn't about immigration, other posters made it about immigration. You sure you're a lawyer?

I was talking about a loss of rights of citizens, Citizens, CITIZENS!!!

Oh, sorry. I agree, citizens continue to see their rights eroded by a strong central government. My most significant concerns at this point in time are the rights to privacy and free speech.

[thegreekdog]

All in all, the American Revolutionary War was a fight to legitimize slavery and the stealing of native lands. Those are the two principles America was founded on and the two principles that made it a superpower. As long as it continues to promote equality it will sink. Terror and tyranny, cruelty and coercion are the only way to usher in a new era of American hegemony.

And I was just trolling you earlier ny2.

The American Revolution occurred in the 18th century. England abolished slavery in the 19th century. So I'm not sure "legitimize slavery" is a real thing.

I'm also not sure "stealing of native lands" is a real thing either at least vis-a-vis England because, you know, India, Canada, China, Australia, other places that I can't think of off the top of my head.

[thegreekdog]

I would blame the beginning of erosion to rights to privacy on Bush Jr., not so much Bush Sr. The Patriot Act was a brutal piece of legislation with respect to privacy. Unfortunately, neither Obama or Trump (thus far) did anything about that. I believe Obama made it worse.

I don't mind paying a fair share of taxes for schools, roads, fire departments, hospitals, etc., but it seems the rich are not paying their share and are exerting more influence on all levels of government than all the peoples combined exert. The corporations are controlling us and our governments. We have become slaves of the system.

The rich pay more in taxes than anyone else and it's not even close.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... xes_stats/

Corporations (and the rich generally) do have more sway in government than others. The Koch brothers or George Soros can spend millions on political causes and have plenty left to live large. While we are perhaps slaves to the system, I'm doing alright. I'm pretty happy. I'm not looking to upset the apple cart given that history is pretty replete with the revolutionaries ending up being the new system to which people are slaves.

[King_Herpes]

"Poor rights, rich rights, moar rights"!

You invisible people and your rights.

You'll get what you get and you'll shut up and like it!

[Symmetry]

Right - rhetoric. There are not actual substantive differences in policy between Trump and Obama/Bush/Clinton.

Ridiculous.

[Bernie Sanders]

Right - rhetoric. There are not actual substantive differences in policy between Trump and Obama/Bush/Clinton.

Drug/alcohol test needed immediately!

[thegreekdog]

Right - rhetoric. There are not actual substantive differences in policy between Trump and Obama/Bush/Clinton.

Ridiculous.

Context matters... immigration policy.

Right - rhetoric. There are not actual substantive differences in policy between Trump and Obama/Bush/Clinton.

Drug/alcohol test needed immediately!

Context matters... immigration policy.

Did you fine gentlemen not see the pictures from Obama-era detainments? I mean, I know you saw them like 3 months ago when Obama was no longer president and the pictures were linked to Trump because "we hatez Trump!"

[armati]

Got your ID card yet?

https://youtu.be/tMv-BCfIbcY 8 mins 42 secs.

Americans Forced To Comply By 2020—No Compliance, No Entry and The Bill Already Passed

I find it hilarious people dont recognize national socialism at work.
No other choice but to laff.

I started mentioning this on blogs as a step by step thing about 10 years ago, but the boiling frog refuses to jump.
We have far too few critical thinkers left.

[saxitoxin]

Well maybe not you, if you're Canadian, but subjects of the British Empire really were short on Rights anyway.

Quite the opposite. Most of the rights that Americans congratulate themselves for are rights they already had when they were British subjects. Why was the Bill of Rights enacted in the first place? Because people were pissed off that the new Constitution didn't give them basic rights that they already enjoyed prior to the Revolution, under the English Bill of Rights, the Magna Carta, and the common law.

Today, rights remain strong in the remaining British dominions, while in the U.S. they are steadily eroded. The alphabet soup of federal agencies has made an utter mockery of such things as the limitations on search and seizure.

Just as one example: In Canada I still cannot be arrested unless I am charged with a crime, immediately, or held as a material witness to a crime that is specified to me, immediately. There's no such thing as an arrest "on suspicion." In the U.K, I could be held "on suspicion" for 24 hours. In most U.S. states, it's 72 hours, except in a few where it's 48.

Our laws are similar on the surface, but when you dig deeper you find that almost all protections have been more deeply eroded in American law than in Canadian or British law.

I'm not sure what this is in reference to --- you can't be imprisoned on Reasonable Suspicion in the United States under any circumstance, only on Probable Cause. Reasonable Suspicion of a crime is grounds for a Terry Stop in which you can be detained for the minimum amount of time needed to ascertain your identity, purpose of business, and possession of weapons, but that is usually not more than 5-10 minutes. The lesser standard of Mere Suspicion can't even initiate a Terry Stop.

- And, unlike many Commonwealth nations, preventive detention is not permitted in the United States. In Australia, today, a person who has not committed any crime at all can be imprisoned for up to 48 hours to prevent them from committing a crime. In India I believe it's two weeks. In the United States it's 0 minutes.

-The last time martial law was declared in Canada? 1970. In the United States? 1865.

-In Britain and every one of its current or former dominions, the institution of the Grand Jury - created in 1215 to guard against prosecutorial harassment - has been completely abolished. This remnant of the Magna Carta is preserved, cherished, and protected only in the United States. The most recent Grand Jury in Canada was convened in 1871. In England, where it was created, the most recent Grand Jury was convened in 1933. The most recent Grand Jury in the United States was convened this afternoon.

But that's okay. Trudeau will ride his bottom-scraping approval ratings into a landslide defeat next year and then we'll annex eight of the provinces (tough luck PQ and NB) and reintroduce you to the Magna Carta.

[notyou2]

LOL Saxi.