What are your feelings on China's ban on Reincarnation

[Koronna]

screw communism. Blame it all on Mao and communists and not the Chinese civilians

[CrazyAnglican]

pssssst.......guess what my avatar is peein' on? (oh yoooooohoooo......father bad-touch....... )

Just thought I'd bring the lovely nuns and padres I mentioned earlier up again......I notice you casually avoided mentioning them god-boy...

Glide I'm having trouble getting your point here. I agree it's reprehensible when anyone abuses a child, but you are no more likely to find a "father bad touch" than you are a "doctor bad touch", "chiropractor bad touch", "teacher bad touch", or probably even "Mister bad touch the atheist". Are you equally down on medicine, chiropratic, education, and atheism because of it?

99.8% of Roman Catholic Priests have never harmed a child. http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-cath ... buse-cases

The 0.2% who have, should be defrocked and punished like anyone else. If your argument is that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has made mistakes in this area, you'll have no argument from me. If, however, you are trying to paint most priests as pedophiles, you are wrong. The overwhelming majority of priests are not pedophiles. If you have some evidence that they are then please produce it. Otherwise you are just trying to overgeneralize and smear a vocation filled with good people for the crimes of a small minority of seriously depraved ones.

[muy_thaiguy]

pssssst.......guess what my avatar is peein' on? (oh yoooooohoooo......father bad-touch....... )

Just thought I'd bring the lovely nuns and padres I mentioned earlier up again......I notice you casually avoided mentioning them god-boy...

Glide I'm having trouble getting your point here. I agree it's reprehensible when anyone abuses a child, but you are no more likely to find a "father bad touch" than you are a "doctor bad touch", "chiropractor bad touch", "teacher bad touch", or probably even "Mister bad touch the atheist". Are you equally down on medicine, chiropratic, education, and atheism because of it?

99.8% of Roman Catholic Priests have never harmed a child. http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-cath ... buse-cases

The 0.2% who have, should be defrocked and punished like anyone else. If your argument is that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has made mistakes in this area, you'll have no argument from me. If, however, you are trying to paint most priests as pedophiles, you are wrong. The overwhelming majority of priests are not pedophiles. If you have some evidence that they are then please produce it. Otherwise you are just trying to overgeneralize and smear a vocation filled with good people for the crimes of a small minority of seriously depraved ones.

Actually, the .2% who do do it, are ex-communicated. Kicked out of the Roman Catholic Church.

[CrazyAnglican]

I seriously can't even imagine what your thoughts are. Are you following Glide's statements at all?

Yes I agree he's being coarse about it but I honestly can't think of any other way to be.

I'll even go all out and let you off the hook with my Mel joke now that the tone is changing for me.

So go ahead and defend preists of any organisation preying on people worst of all children.

Maybe this is not really a catholic issue but there have been too many cases of those priests being members of the catholic church, followed by other members covering up for them for years.

Sorry if that's not pleasent enough but it makes me kind of angry.

Hey 2dimes,

I respect your passion on this issue and share it. I don't think anyone is defending pedophiles. It's just not fair to hold an entire population suspect for the acts of such a small minority.

Pedophilia is wrong. Pedophiles should be punished severely, but isn't it wrong to hold an entire vocation in contempt for the actions of a small minority. There have been writers, poets, and musicians who were pedophiles. Should we abandon literature because of this?

I'm not helping him if he wants to be a jerk. He can grow his own tact.


The fault of the priests is not the fault of the Church. Nobody blames the NRA when someone gets shot, so why are you blaming the Catholic Church for the actions of sick individuals?

Vt you're actually a little softer on any church than I would be on this issue. I'm with unamouski, the Church is not responsible if they do not hinder an investigation, but if they protect their priests then the certainly share the blame. They have aided in the commission of child exploitation and are therefore guilty of neglect.

That doesn't mean that they can't back their guy 100% up until the verdict, but they should never try to quash an investigation or hinder a prosecution.

Actually, the .2% who do do it, are ex-communicated. Kicked out of the Roman Catholic Church.

That's an appropriate reponse for any church to take. I think early on some churches tried to cover it up, and that causes tham to share the guilt for those crimes. An institution, who polices their own, and demands a high degree of accountability doesn't have to fear this though.

[Huckleberryhound]

I saw this issue posted in another forum ( The topic of the thread, that being the Chinese government Legislating to control the reincarnation of the religious and political leader of Tibet), and both threads have ended up the same way....With Christians and athiests pulling apart some stupid christian ideal, instead of showing any interest in the actual issue.


It's a sad day

[muy_thaiguy]

I saw this issue posted in another forum ( The topic of the thread, that being the Chinese government Legislating to control the reincarnation of the religious and political leader of Tibet), and both threads have ended up the same way....With Christians and athiests pulling apart some stupid christian ideal, instead of showing any interest in the actual issue.


It's a sad day

I know, I'm not even sure how it got started. Then again, many threads tend to do this kind of thing.

[umanouski]

i agree with the guy above me.

[CrazyAnglican]

I think communion is banned there, Catholic or otherwise.

It may or may not be, but I heard recently that they have the largest Christian population in the world now.

That is false. While the government claims that 16 million Chinese are Christian, it is estimated that between 40 million to 100 million. There estimated to be 300 million religious people in China but most of that is not Christian but Buddhist.
40 million figure
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6337627.stm
100 million figure
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/Discipleship/persecution_112702.aspx

This means the U.S.(228 million Christians) and Brazil (169 million Christians) both definitely have more Christians and possibly Mexico with 90 million Christians, the Phillipines with 80 million Christians, Nigeria which has 54 million Christians, Germany with 55 million, and Ethiopia with 46 million depending on what the true chinese number is between 40-100 million.

source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
click on country and then population to find religious percentages and then extrapolate over whole population

I conceed the point. Your numbers seem right.

Gotta remember. Check first, then post. Check first, then post. Check first, then post.

In researching though, one thing struck me. Christianity is taking off there going from 700,000 protestants (no figures on Catholics) to 40-100 million (12 million of these are Catholics) in less than sixty years. That's pretty impressive.

http://www.worthynews.com/news-features ... urvey.html

[2dimes]

Ok, I know I went off a litte harsh here.

That doesn't mean I'm blaming the whole catholic church to the full extent but as was so well said.

I agree completely. If you do something sick, say what the priests did, you should be shunned from your organization. However, if your organization defends you, they should also take heat.

I think placing a blanket blame would be the same as saying something like, "Meh those kids had it coming... they were catholics."

I can tell Ambrose is trying to seperate himself from Mel Gibson, preditory priests etc.

I'm just really upset about it and think the people most upset about it should be catholics.

In conclusion I think we know next to nothing about china exept they are genuis at cooking beef and chicken.

[OnlyAmbrose]

I'm just really upset about it and think the people most upset about it should be catholics.

I'm a Catholic teenage male. That means that I'm in the group which is most commonly hit by priest pedophilia. what's more, I'm disgusted that this behavior is happening within the Church.

What I do understand, however, is that I belong to an earthly, and therefore perfectly fallible, church. People do bad things. .2% of priests do really bad things. What I know is that bad things happen no matter where you go, and when I hear people attacking the Church on the grounds that there are pedophiles in the clergy... it ticks me off because it's such a ridiculous grounds to attack it on. There are pedophiles EVERYWHERE.

But believe me, we are very upset over the whole thing. Cardinal Mahoney,a man who intentionally obstructed the law here in the L.A. area, was one of the most cursed names in my household when the scandal emerged. Moreso than Michael Moore

With Christians and athiests pulling apart some stupid christian ideal, instead of showing any interest in the actual issue.

How seriously are we supposed to take a government's ban on reincarnation?

[Beastly]

I feel that china can ban reincarnation, anytime they want...

I'm still gonna come back as a Chinese asshole.

[Neutrino]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

In one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is "an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation."

Next thing you know, they are going to ban Jesus from transubstantiating into bread at communion and ban djini from the southwestern Islamic provinces of China.

At a glance, it's silly, but digging deeper, it's a nasty and clever way to justify religious persecution. If someone claims to be re-incarnated, you can simply clap him in irons and toss him in jail - after all, where's his permit? This is typical of communist governments. They generally don't outlaw religion outright, but instead they make it impractical to practice. For example, "sure, you can set up a temple/church/mosque/crystal pyramid or whatever to worship in. All you need is a permit."

Hmmm?

The effective banning of religions is in no way unique to modern day 'communist' countries. If you'd ever looked at how these 'communist' countries operated or were structured you would be immediatly struck by the fact that they were not communist, in any sensible meaning of the word. They were, and are, dictatorships that merely found it convienient to be thought of as 'communist'.
Every dictatorship of all time has tried to force it's population to believe in something (as it is rather the point), whether in it's leader's divinity, or athiesm (as the 'communist' nations have chosen) or some completly different option (it's usually based around religion, though). As is abundantly clear, the 'communist' nations are doing nothing that any other dictatorship has done and thus it is more than slightly pointless to single them out.

[2dimes]

I saw this issue posted in another forum ( The topic of the thread, that being the Chinese government Legislating to control the reincarnation of the religious and political leader of Tibet), and both threads have ended up the same way....With Christians and athiests pulling apart some stupid christian ideal, instead of showing any interest in the actual issue.


It's a sad day

I know, I'm not even sure how it got started. Then again, many threads tend to do this kind of thing.

It started with the first post containing a joke, regarding a Catholic concept being next to be banned and me speaking out in what may have turned out to be appearant ignorance, that the underlying action was all ready banned.

According to the thread's author it's not banned yet, you just need a permit to have a church there.

Then somewhere in the pile here a person agreed with me that the permits are likely a ruse.

I'm a Catholic teenage male. That means that I'm in the group which is most commonly hit by priest pedophilia. what's more, I'm disgusted that this behavior is happening within the Church.

Well lets hope it's something of the past and we can be "disgusted that this behavior was happening."

Sorry to be so pessimistic but with the history of "residential school" in Canada, I'm more than a little concerned it's not.

[glide]

Ambrose.....I must admit I am surprised at your youth, and I am impressed with your ability to debate your points. I will not retract the coarse statements I have made, but will concede that you also have made some valid points. However, remember, doctors, lawyers, etc. who prey on children, do NOT turn around and put on the "pious" routine in their normal lives. They do not belong to an organization that ignores poverty and hunger while getting outrageously rich from their followers. And they do not anger me so consistently as does the high and mighty Catholic church. All I'm saying is to the church is: clean up your own backyard first....maybe spread some of the wealth around and help those who you've hooked on your promises..and stop turning a blind eye to some of the most horrific insults to your followers I can imagine.
Have a nice day. I'm too disgusted with the Catholic church to continue this. Best of luck with your religious decision. I wish you well.

[OnlyAmbrose]

However, remember, doctors, lawyers, etc. who prey on children, do NOT turn around and put on the "pious" routine in their normal lives.

There is no priest that I know of who pretends to be perfect. They fully admit to be sinners like the rest of us. I have never really come across a holier-than-thou priest.

Pope John Paul II went to confession every single day.

They do not belong to an organization that ignores poverty and hunger while getting outrageously rich from their followers.

IGNORES poverty and hunger?! Are you mad?! Do you have any idea how much money is poured into Mexico and other third-world countries? Or any idea how many convents and religious orders devote themselves to the unjustly imprisoned or the poor?

And they do not anger me so consistently as does the high and mighty Catholic church. All I'm saying is to the church is: clean up your own backyard first....maybe spread some of the wealth around and help those who you've hooked on your promises..

So because we have a minuscule amount pedophiles in our clergy, somehow all of our good works mean nothing?

And what promises are you referring to?

and stop turning a blind eye to some of the most horrific insults to your followers I can imagine.

Nobody's turning a blind eye to anything. Just an objective eye.

[2dimes]

Wow, I'll go now.

Have fun and see you later when I snap and can't help but get back in it.

[Koronna]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

In one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is "an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation."

Next thing you know, they are going to ban Jesus from transubstantiating into bread at communion and ban djini from the southwestern Islamic provinces of China.

At a glance, it's silly, but digging deeper, it's a nasty and clever way to justify religious persecution. If someone claims to be re-incarnated, you can simply clap him in irons and toss him in jail - after all, where's his permit? This is typical of communist governments. They generally don't outlaw religion outright, but instead they make it impractical to practice. For example, "sure, you can set up a temple/church/mosque/crystal pyramid or whatever to worship in. All you need is a permit."

Hmmm?

The effective banning of religions is in no way unique to modern day 'communist' countries. If you'd ever looked at how these 'communist' countries operated or were structured you would be immediatly struck by the fact that they were not communist, in any sensible meaning of the word. They were, and are, dictatorships that merely found it convienient to be thought of as 'communist'.
Every dictatorship of all time has tried to force it's population to believe in something (as it is rather the point), whether in it's leader's divinity, or athiesm (as the 'communist' nations have chosen) or some completly different option (it's usually based around religion, though). As is abundantly clear, the 'communist' nations are doing nothing that any other dictatorship has done and thus it is more than slightly pointless to single them out.

Neutrino I totally agree with your point. The Chinese Communsit Government is nohting but a hypocrite. Claiming itself to be "communist", China now has a toatlly Capalist and free market. Claiming itself to promote democrocy and peace around the world, it is the largest dictatorship on Earth. You guys are not Chinese, you don't know what they do to bash America and the rest of the free world. They claim America to be an evil empire with a democracry that does not work. They claim to value democracy and America should respect China's "Democracy". It is no surprise that the COmmunsits will surpress religious groups, because religion is the opposite of communism, communism's counterpart. A great Falung Gong democracy movement is now raging in China, awakening people to the government's doings. this is exactly what the communists fear; that religion will awaken people to their doings and overthrow them.
This following link is to a book that has caused at least 20 million Chinese to quit the communist party. the number is growing. the communist's fall is looming.

http://ninecommentaries.com/
http://ninecommentaries.com/
http://ninecommentaries.com/
http://ninecommentaries.com/
http://ninecommentaries.com/

[d.gishman]

So if a Chinese person comes back and reincarnates as a Chinese government official, he has to arrest himself...?

[umanouski]

Ambrose.....I must admit I am surprised at your youth, and I am impressed with your ability to debate your points. I will not retract the coarse statements I have made, but will concede that you also have made some valid points. However, remember, doctors, lawyers, etc. who prey on children, do NOT turn around and put on the "pious" routine in their normal lives. They do not belong to an organization that ignores poverty and hunger while getting outrageously rich from their followers. And they do not anger me so consistently as does the high and mighty Catholic church. All I'm saying is to the church is: clean up your own backyard first....maybe spread some of the wealth around and help those who you've hooked on your promises..and stop turning a blind eye to some of the most horrific insults to your followers I can imagine.
Have a nice day. I'm too disgusted with the Catholic church to continue this. Best of luck with your religious decision. I wish you well.

Unfortunately, he is right. The Church started off as a great thing (a very very long time ago) but then it let it's power go to it's head. That is what happened. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Stopper]

This following link is to a book that has caused at least 20 million Chinese to quit the communist party. the number is growing. the communist's fall is looming.

I don't support the CCP either, but be careful what you wish for. When the Soviets fell, it was a disaster for Russia for at least the ten years following 1991.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Ambrose.....I must admit I am surprised at your youth, and I am impressed with your ability to debate your points. I will not retract the coarse statements I have made, but will concede that you also have made some valid points. However, remember, doctors, lawyers, etc. who prey on children, do NOT turn around and put on the "pious" routine in their normal lives. They do not belong to an organization that ignores poverty and hunger while getting outrageously rich from their followers. And they do not anger me so consistently as does the high and mighty Catholic church. All I'm saying is to the church is: clean up your own backyard first....maybe spread some of the wealth around and help those who you've hooked on your promises..and stop turning a blind eye to some of the most horrific insults to your followers I can imagine.
Have a nice day. I'm too disgusted with the Catholic church to continue this. Best of luck with your religious decision. I wish you well.

Unfortunately, he is right. The Church started off as a great thing (a very very long time ago) but then it let it's power go to it's head. That is what happened. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you'd like to argue the point, please do so by addressing the points I have made instead of posting vague, generalized statements. Thanks!

[Nobunaga]

... Baning reincarnation... well, hard for me to relate to, really.

... This is a bit more disturbing, in my humble opinion.

... For those who prefer not to click: Another "cyber-terrorist" was arrested and sentenced to 4 years in prison, in China for "subversion".

...

[Coleman]

They also have rehab centers for internet/video game addiction.

[Koronna]

This following link is to a book that has caused at least 20 million Chinese to quit the communist party. the number is growing. the communist's fall is looming.

I don't support the CCP either, but be careful what you wish for. When the Soviets fell, it was a disaster for Russia for at least the ten years following 1991.

Well one can't be afraid of change because of the short term aftermath. For the greater and longer good, we should wish for what is the best in the long term for China.

[Stopper]

This following link is to a book that has caused at least 20 million Chinese to quit the communist party. the number is growing. the communist's fall is looming.

I don't support the CCP either, but be careful what you wish for. When the Soviets fell, it was a disaster for Russia for at least the ten years following 1991.

Well one can't be afraid of change because of the short term aftermath. For the greater and longer good, we should wish for what is the best in the long term for China.

Well, I won't press the point too hard. For one thing, I don't know a lot about China or anything, and I wasn't sure what direction you were coming from when you first posted. I thought you might be a western Trotskyist or something - but you certainly didn't sound like the average American right-winger who presumes to know what is best for the rest of the world - and, well, you aren't.

I find opposition to the Chinese regime awkward to deal with. I'm as aware as I can be of how murderous it can be towards its citizens, but China has also been posting near-double-digit GDP growth for many, many years, and is lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. As long as this keeps happening, it isn't immediately obvious to me that rocking the boat is the best thing for China.

Not that I'm insisting that things should definitely stay the same, but to have the same thing happen to China as it did to Russia (halving GDP, male life expectancy falling to 59) could be even worse for the Chinese than it was for the Russians.