Conquer Club

OK I've been reading the Christians go back and forth with the nonbelievers or whatever you want to call them. I find the whole idea of eternal bliss or eternal damnation an interesting topic. I'm taking a world religions class. If the JF's here are willing I want to engage them in a discussion because I've got some questions for them.

I should define what I believe so we're all clear here. First of all I think the idea of evolution to be silly. Nature just magically selected certain species to survive and thrive? No way! There's too many holes in the theories and nobody's been able to prove it. The people who believe in it are welcome to it, but they've been given enough time to produce the evidence and they never are able to. There's too much complexity and design in the world for me to deny that there is some type of supreme being or higher power. If you want to call it God then go ahead.

On the other hand, you've got the Christians claiming that God loves everyone. There are so many inconsistencies with their claims. Let me just point out a few that I think are bogus.

1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

If any Jesus Freaks or Christians want to discuss this I will listen and not call you a name or make fun of you. My position is that there is some type of God or supreme being but it's impossible to personally know him as he stopped caring about us or is apathetic. I await any of you.

Why don't you believe?








P.S. Im not member of the jesus freaks

CoffeeCream wrote:1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

First we must recognize that God is unlike humans in thinking, knowledge, and power and we can not understand everything he does, therefore there is no way of knowing why God would create anything.

When God created Adam and Eve and both sinned they released evil into the world, but sin is not a creation it is a byproduct of disobedience to God. Perhaps the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had a purpose that is not revealed. The Tree may have been for Adam and Eve when God said it was alright to eat the Fruit, but not until a later date. It may have been similar to a parent saying to their children "You can't have a cookie until i say it is OK," the kid will not understand why, but the parent has a purpose behind the restriction. You also must recognize the fact that
Adam and Eve were both grown Adults who have the will power to resist the temptation of eating the Fruit, unlike a child.

CoffeeCream wrote:2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

God has preformed miracles; the Bible is filled with them, and he did come for about 32 years as the man Jesus. Also God wants us to believe because we have faith and trust, not because he bribes us by preforming miracles on a regular basis. The reason that God does not end wars, crime, disease and evil is because he gave Humans a unique gift: the gift of free will. God could easily be a controlling dictator but he wants us to learn from our mistakes and learn to love each other by our own free will, not because he forces us like mindless robots.

CoffeeCream wrote:3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

Some Christians believe it is their duty to make a Christian state that is based on Biblical and moral laws. on the contrary I believe a Christian state is the opposite of what God wants, as he would rather make the choice to follow him and his laws a free choice, not an obligatory decision.

CoffeeCream wrote:4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

God wants everyone to go to heaven and all it takes is a genuine faith to enter. Jesus sacrificed himself so everyone could go th heaven and all he asks for is faith, if you can not give that small token of recognition, you can not enter. Also God is not unjust for sending people to hell as he gave them a whole life time to have faith in him.

Well put magneticgoop. I would have said similar things.

GreecePwns wrote:Well put magneticgoop. I would have said similar things.

God wants everyone to go to heaven and all it takes is a genuine faith to enter. Jesus sacrificed himself so everyone could go th heaven and all he asks for is faith, if you can not give that small token of recognition, you can not enter. Also God is not unjust for sending people to hell as he gave them a whole life time to have faith in him.

Well, I dont think Jesus's sacrifice worked. More people are not religious now then probably ever before. Also, its not a small token of recognition, its a lifetime of devotion to a religion, which takes a lot of work and effort and time.

Also, a question to those who believe in Heaven and hell, what happens to a baby which dies when it is a matter of days or weeks or even hours old? Surely it cannot be judged to be good or evil because it has not had the time to prove itself either way.

Finally, I'll just like to say I do not belive in Christianity or any of the Abrahamic religion at all, because they are just stories which were passed around imo. Look up the god Mithras, his story is scarily similar to Jesus's , and so are many others. I do not beleive in Heaven and Hell because I just dont think you can split the world into good people and bad people. People have parts of both, and if this was so heaven would have many people who have bad parts to them, and hell will have a lot of people who can be very kinf and forgiving.

Has anyone ever thought of the concept that parts of the Bible might actually be symbolic, rather than absolute fact? You may believe what you like, but perhaps look at things logically. If you trace the genealogy in the bible back to Adam and Eve, the earth apparently is about 5 thousand to 6 thousand years old. Using science (Carbon-14 dating and other radioactive materials), it has been concluded that the earth is considerably older than a few thousand years, closer to 4.5 billion years, if that is what you choose to believe. Using that as just one example, the Adam and Eve story was probably not completely factual, more symbolic of lessons that people wanted to get across.

Evolution: The theory is that when cells reproduce, all of their DNA must be copied and transferred to the daughter cell. On occasion, there is a slight error when the DNA gets copied, referred to as a mutation. Most of the time, when a mutation occurs, the cell will die because it will not be able to function properly without that exact DNA. Very rarely though, that mutation actually helps the cell in one way or another (as a broad example, wouldn't it sometimes be helpful to have a third hand?). When this mutation is actually beneficial and the mutant lives to reproduce, a new species is born. I won't go into Darwinism because someone else probably knows more than I on that subject.
Just a joke, evolution is just a theory just like how gravity is just a theory.

note: I actually am a Christian, I just happen to have fairly liberal views.

frogger4 wrote:Has anyone ever thought of the concept that parts of the Bible might actually be symbolic, rather than absolute fact? You may believe what you like, but perhaps look at things logically. If you trace the genealogy in the bible back to Adam and Eve, the earth apparently is about 5 thousand to 6 thousand years old. Using science (Carbon-14 dating and other radioactive materials), it has been concluded that the earth is considerably older than a few thousand years, closer to 4.5 billion years, if that is what you choose to believe. Using that as just one example, the Adam and Eve story was probably not completely factual, more symbolic of lessons that people wanted to get across.

I completely agree. A lot of the stories and "miracles" were just lessons and stories which had a deeper meaning. Like how parents tell children stories which arnt necessarily factually true, but teach them a lesson.

frogger4 wrote:Evolution: The theory is that when cells reproduce, all of their DNA must be copied and transferred to the daughter cell. On occasion, there is a slight error when the DNA gets copied, referred to as a mutation. Most of the time, when a mutation occurs, the cell will die because it will not be able to function properly without that exact DNA. Very rarely though, that mutation actually helps the cell in one way or another (as a broad example, wouldn't it sometimes be helpful to have a third hand?). When this mutation is actually beneficial and the mutant lives to reproduce, a new species is born. I won't go into Darwinism because someone else probably knows more than I on that subject.
Just a joke, evolution is just a theory just like how gravity is just a theory.

note: I actually am a Christian, I just happen to have fairly liberal views.

Is gravity still classed as a theory?

Mutation is what causes evolution, yer. Mutation had been scientifically proven, and its link to evolution is also stated. I'm not too sure at what part creationists doubt it, because I've never had this debate seriosuly before...

Titanic wrote:

God wants everyone to go to heaven and all it takes is a genuine faith to enter. Jesus sacrificed himself so everyone could go th heaven and all he asks for is faith, if you can not give that small token of recognition, you can not enter. Also God is not unjust for sending people to hell as he gave them a whole life time to have faith in him.

Well, I dont think Jesus's sacrifice worked. More people are not religious now then probably ever before. Also, its not a small token of recognition, its a lifetime of devotion to a religion, which takes a lot of work and effort and time.

Also, a question to those who believe in Heaven and hell, what happens to a baby which dies when it is a matter of days or weeks or even hours old? Surely it cannot be judged to be good or evil because it has not had the time to prove itself either way.

Finally, I'll just like to say I do not belive in Christianity or any of the Abrahamic religion at all, because they are just stories which were passed around imo. Look up the god Mithras, his story is scarily similar to Jesus's , and so are many others. I do not beleive in Heaven and Hell because I just dont think you can split the world into good people and bad people. People have parts of both, and if this was so heaven would have many people who have bad parts to them, and hell will have a lot of people who can be very kinf and forgiving.

BOLD:i meant comparatively speaking, it is not easy to believe but is a whole lot easier than being punished for everyones sins that you did not commit. Also God would love to have you follow him for your entire life but he does not require it because he knows that people will fall away but he still accepted them into heaven and he will not go back on his word to allow them in.

they go to heaven as they were not old enough to recognized that they have sinned, and therefore could not accept and believe the message of Christ

Titanic wrote:Is gravity still classed as a theory?

I don't know why people like to bring this up, it is a law, Evolution is a theory, and that's how I have been taught, and that is how I have learned it.

magneticgoop wrote:

Titanic wrote:

God wants everyone to go to heaven and all it takes is a genuine faith to enter. Jesus sacrificed himself so everyone could go th heaven and all he asks for is faith, if you can not give that small token of recognition, you can not enter. Also God is not unjust for sending people to hell as he gave them a whole life time to have faith in him.

Well, I dont think Jesus's sacrifice worked. More people are not religious now then probably ever before. Also, its not a small token of recognition, its a lifetime of devotion to a religion, which takes a lot of work and effort and time.

Also, a question to those who believe in Heaven and hell, what happens to a baby which dies when it is a matter of days or weeks or even hours old? Surely it cannot be judged to be good or evil because it has not had the time to prove itself either way.

Finally, I'll just like to say I do not belive in Christianity or any of the Abrahamic religion at all, because they are just stories which were passed around imo. Look up the god Mithras, his story is scarily similar to Jesus's , and so are many others. I do not beleive in Heaven and Hell because I just dont think you can split the world into good people and bad people. People have parts of both, and if this was so heaven would have many people who have bad parts to them, and hell will have a lot of people who can be very kinf and forgiving.

BOLD:i meant comparatively speaking, it is not easy to believe but is a whole lot easier than being punished for everyones sins that you did not commit. Also God would love to have you follow him for your entire life but he does not require it because he knows that people will fall away but he still accepted them into heaven and he will not go back on his word to allow them in.

they go to heaven as they were not old enough to recognized that they have sinned, and therefore could not accept and believe the message of Christ

But surely thats the main reason why people go to hell, for not believing or following his messages.

frogger4 wrote:Has anyone ever thought of the concept that parts of the Bible might actually be symbolic, rather than absolute fact?

Several parts are, particularly the prophecy, psalms, proverbs and parables but I see no reason not to believe them as a all powerful God could make miracles and supernatural events

frogger4 wrote: You may believe what you like, but perhaps look at things logically. If you trace the genealogy in the bible back to Adam and Eve, the earth apparently is about 5 thousand to 6 thousand years old. Using science (Carbon-14 dating and other radioactive materials), it has been concluded that the earth is considerably older than a few thousand years, closer to 4.5 billion years, if that is what you choose to believe. Using that as just one example, the Adam and Eve story was probably not completely factual, more symbolic of lessons that people wanted to get across.


Evolution: The theory is that when cells reproduce, all of their DNA must be copied and transferred to the daughter cell. On occasion, there is a slight error when the DNA gets copied, referred to as a mutation. Most of the time, when a mutation occurs, the cell will die because it will not be able to function properly without that exact DNA. Very rarely though, that mutation actually helps the cell in one way or another (as a broad example, wouldn't it sometimes be helpful to have a third hand?). When this mutation is actually beneficial and the mutant lives to reproduce, a new species is born. I won't go into Darwinism because someone else probably knows more than I on that subject.
Just a joke, evolution is just a theory just like how gravity is just a theory.

note: I actually am a Christian, I just happen to have fairly liberal views.

go to Creation vs. evolution thread

I am not in the JF and I do not attribute my views to general christianity; basically don't take my answer as "THE" christian answer. Naturally, in spite of this, I have some things I disagree with magneticgoop over.

CoffeeCream wrote:1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

first of all MG I have to disagree, I think everything God does is based in logically and humans have the capacity to comprehend it.
Now Coffee Cream, He didn't know Satan would rebel, he can't see the future. God gave angels free will too. And he didn't create evil, good and evil had existed even before him, he just had the plan to ignore it. Because of this he didn't "allow" man to eat the apple. You see the apple is a symbol for the worst sin out there, adultery. So God didn't "allow" them to have sex, they had the organs from the start and all he could do was warn them not to use them until they were ready. And adam and ever were not full grown adults, actually they were around 16-20. Its sad because they only needed to wait a few years until they were mature enough.

CoffeeCream wrote:2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

God is no longer all powerful, his power is limited as the world has been consumed by sin and majority-ruled by Satan. He wishes he could help us and clear all of our problems but he can't.

CoffeeCream wrote:3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

Yes many christians have it the wrong way, no one can be forced to "do good" they have to make the decision themselves. Christians are on the right track but don't have it exact.

CoffeeCream wrote:4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

Yes the first part is possible because not everyone knows about God from birth, and they sin in ignorance. The second part is not possible, I think you can still go to heaven without knowledge of God. (though not accepting him is a sketchy subject for me...)
and God doesn't "send" people to hell, he wants to "bring" as many people as he can to heaven. But he is not allowed to bring people that Satan has a decent grasp on. When someone goes to Hell, they aren't pushed, they are pulled.

Again, in the above post, when I say confirming words like "this is" or "this isn't" I don't mean to dismiss all of the previous talk I'm just too lazy to put "I believe" in front of every sentence

Titanic wrote:
Also, a question to those who believe in Heaven and hell, what happens to a baby which dies when it is a matter of days or weeks or even hours old? Surely it cannot be judged to be good or evil because it has not had the time to prove itself either way.

I heard most go to a "middle ground" which is actually a low level of heaven, so they can be educated and such, since they still have ties to Satan.

some children will actually go to heaven if they were born perfect (with their parents doing the proper things...)

again just my views

frogger4 wrote:Has anyone ever thought of the concept that parts of the Bible might actually be symbolic, rather than absolute fact? You may believe what you like, but perhaps look at things logically. If you trace the genealogy in the bible back to Adam and Eve, the earth apparently is about 5 thousand to 6 thousand years old. Using science (Carbon-14 dating and other radioactive materials), it has been concluded that the earth is considerably older than a few thousand years, closer to 4.5 billion years, if that is what you choose to believe. Using that as just one example, the Adam and Eve story was probably not completely factual, more symbolic of lessons that people wanted to get across.

yes, everything in the bible is symbolic, everything. God did not create the universe in 7 days, rather 7 periods or stages. The stage(s) where he created the earth and the stages where he created life are far apart, obviously it takes some time to plan such complex things!

static_ice wrote:I am not in the JF and I do not attribute my views to general christianity; basically don't take my answer as "THE" christian answer. Naturally, in spite of this, I have some things I disagree with magneticgoop over.

CoffeeCream wrote:1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

first of all MG I have to disagree, I think everything God does is based in logically and humans have the capacity to comprehend it.
Now Coffee Cream, He didn't know Satan would rebel, he can't see the future. God gave angels free will too. And he didn't create evil, good and evil had existed even before him, he just had the plan to ignore it. Because of this he didn't "allow" man to eat the apple. You see the apple is a symbol for the worst sin out there, adultery. So God didn't "allow" them to have sex, they had the organs from the start and all he could do was warn them not to use them until they were ready. And adam and ever were not full grown adults, actually they were around 16-20. Its sad because they only needed to wait a few years until they were mature enough.

CoffeeCream wrote:2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

God is no longer all powerful, his power is limited as the world has been consumed by sin and majority-ruled by Satan. He wishes he could help us and clear all of our problems but he can't.

CoffeeCream wrote:3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

Yes many christians have it the wrong way, no one can be forced to "do good" they have to make the decision themselves. Christians are on the right track but don't have it exact.

CoffeeCream wrote:4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

Yes the first part is possible because not everyone knows about God from birth, and they sin in ignorance. The second part is not possible, I think you can still go to heaven without knowledge of God. (though not accepting him is a sketchy subject for me...)
and God doesn't "send" people to hell, he wants to "bring" as many people as he can to heaven. But he is not allowed to bring people that Satan has a decent grasp on. When someone goes to Hell, they aren't pushed, they are pulled.

Again, in the above post, when I say confirming words like "this is" or "this isn't" I don't mean to dismiss all of the previous talk I'm just too lazy to put "I believe" in front of every sentence

i see you points here and i have already stated my views but the god you are speaking of is not the all knowing, all powerful God of Christianity and therefore is obviously wrong in my opinon

magneticgoop wrote:i see you points here and i have already stated my views but the god you are speaking of is not the all knowing, all powerful God of Christianity and therefore is obviously wrong in my opinon

well in my opinion, the all powerful God of Christianity is wrong

static_ice wrote:

magneticgoop wrote:i see you points here and i have already stated my views but the god you are speaking of is not the all knowing, all powerful God of Christianity and therefore is obviously wrong in my opinon

well in my opinion, the all powerful God of Christianity is wrong

the difference between my opinion and yours is mine is right

magneticgoop wrote:

static_ice wrote:

magneticgoop wrote:i see you points here and i have already stated my views but the god you are speaking of is not the all knowing, all powerful God of Christianity and therefore is obviously wrong in my opinon

well in my opinion, the all powerful God of Christianity is wrong

the difference between my opinion and yours is mine is right

you're a great debater

static_ice wrote:

magneticgoop wrote:

static_ice wrote:

magneticgoop wrote:i see you points here and i have already stated my views but the god you are speaking of is not the all knowing, all powerful God of Christianity and therefore is obviously wrong in my opinon

well in my opinion, the all powerful God of Christianity is wrong

the difference between my opinion and yours is mine is right

you're a great debater

i know but back on topic is coffee around i want to hear his response

There are no magical gods hiding in the bushes.

That is all.

Alright, I'll take a whack at it. Good to see a respectful post on the topic

CoffeeCream wrote:Nature just magically selected certain species to survive and thrive? No way! There's too many holes in the theories and nobody's been able to prove it. The people who believe in it are welcome to it, but they've been given enough time to produce the evidence and they never are able to. There's too much complexity and design in the world for me to deny that there is some type of supreme being or higher power.

Well, if you're taking a world religions class, it would probably be helpful to know that Catholics do endorse evolution. And no, nature did not "magically" select species to survive and thrive, because nature has no will. Natural selection is a perfectly reasonable concept, however. You can't really deny that if something has unhelpful traits, it will die before it can reproduce. Multiply this process by 3 billion years (give or take) and I don't doubt that the result could be what we have today.

Nonetheless, we believe that humans are God's special creation, for a few reasons, but one of these is simply that humans seem to be the only creatures with a knowledge of God.

CoffeeCream wrote:1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

He created the angels, but gave them free will so they may freely love him. He certainly knew the consequences this action would have, but apparently freely given love is more valuable to God than the pain which free will would cause.

As for why he allowed man to eat the apple, well that's simple enough - preventing him from doing so would be a violation of free will.

CoffeeCream wrote:2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

Well, we believe that he did come down and show himself to everyone. That's what Jesus was all about. Dying for us certainly shows that he is interested in us.

As for proving it, no, you really can't, not empirically, but trying to empirically prove that the existence of an immaterial being seems kind of useless, doesn't it?

CoffeeCream wrote:3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

The moral issue Christians are generally most associated with is that of abortion. And the thing is, we believe that abortion IS killing someone.

Other issues, such as gay marriage, I really don't have much of a stance on to begin with. I personally think it's wrong and a sin, but I don't think that a secular state has the right to legislate against it.

CoffeeCream wrote:4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

Whether or not you accept Jesus is of fundamental importance to salvation, because we believe that Jesus IS your salvation. However, the culpability of not accepting Jesus can be diminished by any number of things. Maybe the Christians in your life are jerks, and are thus driving you away from Christ more than drawing you to him. Or maybe you have legitimate, reasonable concerns about Christianity which are never addressed. Or maybe you just never heard the Good News in its truth.

Now, on the topic of "living a good life" - you have to tread softly in this area, because we cannot know the motives behind someone's "good life". A supposedly good external life could be due to less-than-sincere motives. Humility is required in addition to good works.

Now, about Hell - we believe that it is a choice freely made. God is simply not going to stop you from making it. This freely made choice ALWAYS boils down to a lack of love for God. Like I said, God gave us the free will to freely love him - or not. Idea is, without loving God, who created you, who is your very reason for being, you can't be happy.

CoffeeCream wrote:My position is that there is some type of God or supreme being but it's impossible to personally know him as he stopped caring about us or is apathetic.

Here's an interesting thing I'll pose to you.

Assuming there is a God (an assumption we both agree on), where did the idea that a God exists come from? Since everything presumably came from God, this idea clearly must have come from God as well. Would an apathetic God give us the idea that he exists?

CoffeeCream wrote:1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

God created Lucifer, an angel, who later rebelled against God. Being thrown out of Heaven and given the name Satan. Lucifer chose, of his own free will, to rebel. Apple... again is free will. We can tell our children not to do something.... it's up to them to listen and not do it. (By the way I fully reject evolution....sorry OA):D

2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

War is man's free will. God has given us free will and for good reason. (He wants us to love Him because we want to, not because we have no other choice). God intervenes in war, according to His plan. Look at the 6 day war Israel was involved in....there is no explanation why Israel still exists other than divine intervention.

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

People can do whatever they want to. Christians are standing up for what is "just" in the eyes of God. However, this is futile as long as sin remains in the world. The world will never be as God would have it, at least not until He comes back to rule over it.

4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

What separates us from God is sin. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus came and sacrificed Himself so that we could be forgiven. And upon excepting that forgiveness by repenting and turning and following Christ we are given eternal life by His grace. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". 1 sin or 1,000,000 sins you are separated from God and need to be cleansed of that sin to be able to have a relationship with God. Jesus provided the way.


We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God.

magneticgoop wrote:First we must recognize that God is unlike humans in thinking, knowledge, and power and we can not understand everything he does, therefore there is no way of knowing why God would create anything.

When God created Adam and Eve and both sinned they released evil into the world, but sin is not a creation it is a byproduct of disobedience to God. Perhaps the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had a purpose that is not revealed. The Tree may have been for Adam and Eve when God said it was alright to eat the Fruit, but not until a later date. It may have been similar to a parent saying to their children "You can't have a cookie until i say it is OK," the kid will not understand why, but the parent has a purpose behind the restriction. You also must recognize the fact that
Adam and Eve were both grown Adults who have the will power to resist the temptation of eating the Fruit, unlike a child.

Why is God unlike humans? If we are created in his image then wouldn't it be logical to assume that we possess the same abilities to reason that it would be a bad thing to eat the fruit? There is also another problem that I can't understand with this. If your God is all knowing then he would know that Adam & Eve would sin.

magneticgoop wrote:God has preformed miracles; the Bible is filled with them, and he did come for about 32 years as the man Jesus. Also God wants us to believe because we have faith and trust, not because he bribes us by preforming miracles on a regular basis.

i thought he was the son of God. You're saying that Jesus is the same as God? That's a bit of a stretch I think considering he constantly called himself the son of God. Anyway, I'm interested in how you justify this so I'll listen.

magneticgoop wrote:The reason that God does not end wars, crime, disease and evil is because he gave Humans a unique gift: the gift of free will. God could easily be a controlling dictator but he wants us to learn from our mistakes and learn to love each other by our own free will, not because he forces us like mindless robots.

and with this gift he has allowed people to misuse it in order to take advantage of each other. Would a loving God allow mankind to destroy themselves? Your point is intriguing about mindless robots. I certainly enjoy my free will, but I don't enjoy others abusing theirs. Sorry if that sounds a little bit arrogant, but I feel that way when i observe the news.

magneticgoop wrote:God wants everyone to go to heaven and all it takes is a genuine faith to enter. Jesus sacrificed himself so everyone could go th heaven and all he asks for is faith, if you can not give that small token of recognition, you can not enter. Also God is not unjust for sending people to hell as he gave them a whole life time to have faith in him.

What about little kids who die? I don't think they even have the ability to understand things such as God, heaven, hell, and the whole bunch of doctrines. It seems like you're saying that they will go to hell and that God is justified in doing so. After all they never 'believed'. Perhaps you can explain this part further.

As far as this sacrifice. Why does anybody need a sacrifice for anything? I know everyone needs faith in whatever they believe but is this faith that you talk of a one time instataneous faith or something that needs to be constantly applied as you believe it?

Don't get me wrong. This is all very interesting, goop. I just fail to see some of your points. But you did respond and don't think I'm not thankful for the discussion. Look forward to reading some more.

my LONG two cents...

...first has anyone ever thought that maybe the bible-and i said MAYBE-was created as a way to control the masses? What better way then fear. "People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to or fear to be true."

...second, there is actually no "Good" and "Evil" in nature. A cat eats a mouse. In our mind, is the cat evil? No. But I am sure the mouse has something different to say about this. Evil is just something we have created to justify punishing criminals and the such.

Who are we to say someone stealing food to feed themselves or the such is wrong? Technically we belong to the earth, and so does everything on this planet. So what gives us the right to say, no you can't have or do that. Moreover the point, who gives us the right to judge our fellow man or woman as good or evil, pure or dark. When in reality we are just part of an ecosystem trying to survive.

...