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mac46 wrote:Without the protection of rights provided by the State, the weak will be forced to submit to the ambitious and strong. Do you still believe a utopia is possible? It seems that it has been demonstrated that human nature will always make it impossible.
F1fth wrote:Aye, 'tis true that people sacrifice some liberties to the State, but in exchange they (ideally, and in many cases realistically) get some protection from foreign entities and from your fellow Statesmen.
And I don't know about any inherent right to life, liberty, and property that isn't indoctrinated in State policy. There's no natural "Law of Humans" that governs us. The powerful would be free to take and deny life, liberty, and property thus creating a dictatorial government and things coming full circle.
xtratabasco wrote:MA you would Love Marc Stevens and his NO State Project and his book Adventures in Legal Land, he also gives seminars.
he has a radio show I listen too every weekend
http://www.wethepeopleradionetwork.com/programs.html
scroll down to the bottom
No State Project
Host: Marc Stevens
Website: http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com
Program Archives
Call-in Number: (512) 646-1984 (888) 202-1984
Time: Saurdays, 4:00 pm - 6:00 pm CST
Marc Stevens is a consultant and the author of the book Adventures In Legal Land. This unique book rips off the "state's" veil of legitimacy and exposes the most pervasive world hoax - the government hoax. Marc Stevens proves there is no "state". Marc is a voluntaryist (libertarian) who believes government is anti-freedom and his No State Project show is dedicated to bringing about a voluntary society.
http://www.freedom-school.com/
mac46 wrote:If that's your argument, then it's not the concept of the state you have a problem with, it's the actual implementation of it.
True, it is hoping for a utopia to believe that the state will always run perfectly.
As for war, well, that's not the ideal state of man, and it shouldn't be the goal of the state.
As for taxation, that can only be implemented after the consent of the majority, right?
F1fth wrote:Basically, you said that we're guaranteed (have a inherent right to) life, liberty, and property. Where? The only place you might these rights are in the articles of Statehood.
And without those rights guaranteed, which anarchism would not, then people are free to trample on others rights as they wish. There's nothing stopping them, is there?
Also, I really hate saying this, because it makes me sound like you run-of-the-mill, blindly patriotic American idiot - which I'm really not - but if you're really against Statehood, you're free to leave, because I'm pretty sure the majority of people are willing to sacrifice some rights to guarantee others are protected.
xtratabasco wrote:well MA I assume your not voting, and my thinking is very close to yours.
who would you vote fore or prefer to win, even though you probably dont support the system.
I have voted for Badnarik and the Libratarains the last 5 or 6 times if I even bother to vote. Im pushing for Ron Paul
Ive heard Ron Paul on Alex Jones interviews and know that the only reason hes running on the Rep. ticket is because he cant win on the others.
your views please.
mac46 wrote:yea people have already tried taxation by personal consent in the articles of confederation, and it's been shown not to function.
Alright, I understand why you disagree with what I said. What's your reasoning for believing a state is not necessary?
How do you propose for rights to be guaranteed if there is no state?
mac46 wrote:btw, what flag is that? Looks like the CSA Naval Jack, but a different color.
mac46 wrote:that all sounds well and good i guess, though I don't agree at all with your view of the state. I'll be the first to commend your ideas if a successful anarchical society ever rises, but I believe I can promise you it will never happen in our lifetime.
MarketAnarchist wrote:This is false. The Philosophy and Ethics of Liberty is from where we draw these rights. These rights did not come into being as a result of the formation of the State.; indeed, they were the "reason" they State came into existence. To argue that they came about as a result of the State is to assert that they never existed before hand, which is absolutely ridiculous. If the State were to disappear, would it still be unethical to murder, steal, and enslave? Of course.
MarketAnarchist wrote:To the contrary. Imagine a society where everyone is either armed to the teeth (no gun laws!) or they have in their employ a private defensive agency to ensure that their rights are not violated and that any disputes between two individuals are fairly arbitrated.
Imagine a society where you couldn't externalize the costs of your actions because you had no one under you immediate subjugation. Indeed, that is how the government does what it does; it doesn't actually pay for anything, it doesn't actually make money. It takes all it has by force (how is this different from theft?), and uses what it took to fund its various endeavors.
Now imagine if you will, how this society would function: PDA's would be loathe to violent action because as we can see in our very much real world right now, that would be much to expensive. Criminals would find different and more ethical professions fast because the result of their actions would either be death, maiming, societal exclusion (who wants to deal with thieves and murderers?), or even perhaps a loss of contracts with various businesses (imagine trying to find an insurance company that will back you with your most dangerous profession!).
MarketAnarchist wrote:Why doesn't the State just leave? The "love it or leave it" bromide begs the underlying question: who is more entitled to this space? The "State" or me? I would argue me, because the State can't own land, but Individuals can. Additionally, appealing to the majority does nothing to reinforce your arguments.
F1fth wrote:Philosophy is all good and well, my friend, but what about enforcement? Since when have people cared about what is ethical if it could elevate themselves to more power?
If we ask society to operate purely on the "honor" system, then I'm afraid that society would fail miserably.
And while the philosophy may have come first, the reason the State came into being was to enforce that philosophy.
I am imagining a world where everyone is armed, and there's nothing that says I can't go shoot my neighbor and take his land except the code of "Ethics."
That world scares the f*ck out of me.
And this kind of world would give an insane amount of power to the gun manufacturers and defense organizations (essentially they'd be small groups of power). Essentially, they'd become small governments as they could start asking for people to give up rights for their protection (sound familiar). I mean, what organization would say no to more power over the people?
And why would criminals change? Why not just band together and take what they will.
Form some kind of terrorist group and take control? It happens even in todays world is far less orderly societies, because it's a lot easier and more profitable to take than it is to earn.
Why can I not appeal to the majority? That's like telling a sports team that they can't field their bes player, and then not even explaining why.
Simply put, there are a lot more people out there who are willing to sacrifice rights for safety than there are people who want anarchy.
Otherwise, people would be rioting in the streets or trying to overthrow the government.
So what makes your opinion of how the world should be more important than what others think it should be like. How can things be decided but by the majority of the people? Well, you could make your decisions for them, but I think that falls under govenment...
kalishnikov wrote:Impossible Utopia, to answer your question.
I cannot further elaborate until you provide me with your definition of anarchy.
This word is misused by most people who use it and as such, it's connotation has been altered to a point where it barely means what the dictionary says. It has little to do with a lack of rules or 'doing what you please' as the fevered dreams of most teenagers would have you believe; however I'm not here to debate semantics.
I love anarchy; true anarchy. The problem lies in that one of the human conditions is that we give control to others. In a small group of friends (3 or less) there is always one thats dominate and the rest tend to follow. So by our very nature we're 'programed' to not allow it to succeed.
For the record, my question was probably answered, I have a stupid habit of just reading the first post then hitting reply. I plan to read the entire thread at some point, hoping for a good argument.
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