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Substitute for guns?

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Postby vtmarik on Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:09 pm

Well, I approve of that.

Swords take a lot more finesse to be able to use, the practice of which can be used as meditation and exercise (less fat and stressed people)

Swords also take a certain amount of balls, instead of being 20-60 feet away from a gunman you've gotta be within 2-3 feet with a sword. You'd see a little less killing if people had to be so intimate with their intended victim.

Finally, swords have a long legacy of honor and justice. They're used in ceremonies all over the world and throughout history. Even if it's ethereal, that has to have an effect on some people. All guns have is a legacy of point-click-bang.
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Postby Minister Masket on Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:49 pm

It's almost like we've come full circle.
First we had the sharpy point thingies in the Dark Ages.
Then we had the shooty metal things in the 20th century.
Now we have chavs in dark alleys we sharpy point thingies again!
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Postby Thrawn2222 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:51 pm

Even if guns were to be banned in the U.S.A., criminals would still get guns illegally. Most gun crimes are caused by (surprise) CRIMINALS.
Criminals get guns illegally even with the rite to bear arms. If America took that rite away, there would an INCREASE in death tolls because nobody has a gun to defend themselves.
As for swords, they are a lot of cool antique swords and they have no more rite in the modern world today except be antiques. If you see a sword wielding man, what does the panicky woman civilian do? Run and scream to the police and say there is a mad man on the loose. And it is very hard to conceal a sword.
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Postby unriggable on Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:57 pm

Thrawn2222 wrote:Even if guns were to be banned in the U.S.A., criminals would still get guns illegally. Most gun crimes are caused by (surprise) CRIMINALS.
Criminals get guns illegally even with the rite to bear arms. If America took that rite away, there would an INCREASE in death tolls because nobody has a gun to defend themselves.


Criminals don't need to risk getting arrested - most states have lots of gun shops, and five states actually have more gun shops than gas stations. How did the VT dude get his weapons? Legally.

Besides, there's no need for speculation! Does anybody actually look at that enormous graph at the top of Page 2? You take guns away, people have a harder time killing eachother.
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Postby hecter on Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:01 pm

Thrawn2222 wrote:Even if guns were to be banned in the U.S.A., criminals would still get guns illegally. Most gun crimes are caused by (surprise) CRIMINALS.
Criminals get guns illegally even with the rite to bear arms. If America took that rite away, there would an INCREASE in death tolls because nobody has a gun to defend themselves.
As for swords, they are a lot of cool antique swords and they have no more rite in the modern world today except be antiques. If you see a sword wielding man, what does the panicky woman civilian do? Run and scream to the police and say there is a mad man on the loose. And it is very hard to conceal a sword.

I love how Americans continue to try to defend their guns when all the evidence points to the fact that it's not working. Look at unriggables graph. See how there is a direct correlation between the amount of guns in households and the amount of "intentional firearm deaths"? So what do you think the sensible thing would to to do? O, I know, reduce the amount of guns!
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Postby Dancing Mustard on Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:40 pm

Thrawn2222 wrote:Even if guns were to be banned in the U.S.A., criminals would still get guns illegally. Most gun crimes are caused by (surprise) CRIMINALS.
Criminals get guns illegally even with the rite to bear arms. If America took that rite away, there would an INCREASE in death tolls because nobody has a gun to defend themselves.

Yawn.

We get this old chestnut every time... here's what your gun-loving mind failed to understand:

If guns are made illegal then it gives the police powers to remove them from citizens. This means that, given effective policing, there will be less guns in society. This makes it harder for criminals to originally acquire guns, and makes it legal charge them with an offence before they actually shoot somebody. The point is that there are less guns to commit crimes with, and the police are able to aprehend potential killers a long time in advance of the actual harmful act. Prevention and pre-emption at the same time, figures from around the world prove that this approach works (you have seen the graph in this thread, right?).

Your "I want a gun in case somebody tries to shoot me"-madness doesn't have these benefits. In your 'paradise' each citizen is a walking potential-murder, and there's nothing anybody (state or citizen) can do until that murderer has started firing rounds into the innocent flesh of their victim(s). Given how many rounds even semi-automatic firearms can fire in under 10-seconds, that's not an amazing situation to find yourself in. Does it sound safer to you than gun prohibition? It shouldn't...

Your problem is that you're arguing for an ability to limit-damage when gun-violence occurs, but simultaneously arguing for an increased ability for all citizens to commit lethal crime and reduced powers for the state to pre-empt it. Do you see why your ideas fail?

You're also assuming that firearm murderers are all rational thinking people who take into account the possibility that people will shoot back at them. Do you think suicidal gunmen like the Columbine shooters care about retaliation when they plan their murderous suicides? Do you think raving maniacs like the V-Tec shooter are thinking sensibly when they load their weapons? Are drug (especially crack) addicts making rational calculations about the possibility of their victims carrying weapons when they go find targets to rob for drug money?

There's a great number of gun offenders who don't have any kind of conscious thoughts about who is and isn't armed. Your deterence arguments are simply based on incorrect assumptions about the nature of offenders.


In short, having your own guns to defend against potential gunners is ludicrous. If nobody has a gun, then you don't need one either. Decreased proliferation and increased powers to pre-empt firearms holders is the only proven way of making gun-crime fall; this is borne out not only by logic and reason, but also from crime statistics from around the world. Yes the reality is that guns will not disappear overnight if outlawed, but the number of guns in society will fall over time with effective policing. And it's effective policing that you really need, not bizarre selfish notions about hoarding your own lethal weapons simply because you're scared you'll be the first to surrender them.
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Postby Minister Masket on Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:42 pm

Why not just do what Dante does and have both swords AND guns?
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Postby Lazy_Pilgrim on Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:47 pm

swords are better for one reason fewer people would die, as it takes a lot more conviction to hack of a limb at 2 ft away than it does to sqease your index finger at 100 yeards.

But truth be told if you want the most effective low tech wepon known to man, the simple stick gives the best ratios for reaction times, manoverability and mortality. Happy human hunting.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby dustn64 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:30 pm

Dancing Mustard wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:if people are responsible enough to teach their kids about gun safety, and take them hunting or something similar, for the most part, they will be okay.

Take your children out to kill innocent creatures with lethal weapons! How could they possibly get the wrong idea?


Its not really like that. People that hunt (like myself) are simply just taking out the middle man and adding enjoyment to the meals. As in:

Normal Life Span of Beef/Other Animal Meat
Cow -> Beef Processing Plant -> Store -> Consumers Home


Hunted Life Span
Deer, Bird, ect. -> Hunters Home


Sorry for trying to save the fuels that the Plants are using to process beef and making the environment better.
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Postby hecter on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:33 pm

I think his point had less to do with the murder of animals and more to do with children getting shot and/or shooting people...
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby Dancing Mustard on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:35 pm

dustn64 wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:if people are responsible enough to teach their kids about gun safety, and take them hunting or something similar, for the most part, they will be okay.

Take your children out to kill innocent creatures with lethal weapons! How could they possibly get the wrong idea?
Its not really like that. People that hunt (like myself) are simply just taking out the middle man and adding enjoyment to the meals. As in:

Normal Life Span of Beef/Other Animal Meat
Cow -> Beef Processing Plant -> Store -> Consumers Home


Hunted Life Span
Deer, Bird, ect. -> Hunters Home


Sorry for trying to save the fuels that the Plants are using to process beef and making the environment better.

Oh I see now...

Take your children out with lethal weapons, kill an innocent creature while learning to use lethal weapons to induce death, celebrate the process of the killing, then eat the victim of the lethal weapon. Justify the experience of killing bear as 'eco-friendly'.

I'm so glad that I get it now... sounds much better than before





On a serious note though: How is this terribly noble attempt to reduce carbon footprints supposed to cut gun crime? Either you're killing these critters because you love the environment (and the taste of bears apparently) or because it teaches children about gun violence. Which justification are you people running with? They don't run together so well...
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby InkL0sed on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:46 pm

Dancing Mustard wrote:
dustn64 wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:if people are responsible enough to teach their kids about gun safety, and take them hunting or something similar, for the most part, they will be okay.

Take your children out to kill innocent creatures with lethal weapons! How could they possibly get the wrong idea?
Its not really like that. People that hunt (like myself) are simply just taking out the middle man and adding enjoyment to the meals. As in:

Normal Life Span of Beef/Other Animal Meat
Cow -> Beef Processing Plant -> Store -> Consumers Home


Hunted Life Span
Deer, Bird, ect. -> Hunters Home


Sorry for trying to save the fuels that the Plants are using to process beef and making the environment better.

Oh I see now...

Take your children out with lethal weapons, kill an innocent creature while learning to use lethal weapons to induce death, celebrate the process of the killing, then eat the victim of the lethal weapon. Justify the experience of killing bear as 'eco-friendly'.

I'm so glad that I get it now... sounds much better than before





On a serious note though: How is this terribly noble attempt to reduce carbon footprints supposed to cut gun crime? Either you're killing these critters because you love the environment (and the taste of bears apparently) or because it teaches children about gun violence. Which justification are you people running with? They don't run together so well...


1) What is this with bears? I'm fairly certain that people don't hunt bears on a regular basis!

2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby hecter on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:51 pm

InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:06 pm

hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?
So, you guys are against not only helping to keep animal populations in control, while at the same time teaching kids how to be responsible with guns (aka, not thinking life is like a violent video game or killing people is fun), but instead, allow their populations to grow to the point where they eat themselves out of food, run out of territory, and eventually, die off. Killing a few is merely keeping their populations in check.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby hecter on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:12 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?
So, you guys are against not only helping to keep animal populations in control, while at the same time teaching kids how to be responsible with guns (aka, not thinking life is like a violent video game or killing people is fun), but instead, allow their populations to grow to the point where they eat themselves out of food, run out of territory, and eventually, die off. Killing a few is merely keeping their populations in check.

I'm not arguing that hunting is bad in anyway, but the fact is that you're teaching these children how to kill. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby unriggable on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:13 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?


So, you guys are against not only helping to keep animal populations in control, while at the same time teaching kids how to be responsible with guns (aka, not thinking life is like a violent video game or killing people is fun), but instead, allow their populations to grow to the point where they eat themselves out of food, run out of territory, and eventually, die off. Killing a few is merely keeping their populations in check.


You're...you're kidding right?

1. By "keeping animal populations in check" you mean slowly but surely driving them to extinction.

2. You don't need to hunt to be responsible with guns. Ask anybody here.

3. There are better ways of keeping populations in check, like condoms and the death penalty.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby The1exile on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:19 pm

unriggable wrote:3. There are better ways of keeping populations in check, like condoms and the death penalty.


rig, you generally make great points but I'm afraid I can't see bears being educated to wear condoms.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:21 pm

unriggable wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:
hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?


So, you guys are against not only helping to keep animal populations in control, while at the same time teaching kids how to be responsible with guns (aka, not thinking life is like a violent video game or killing people is fun), but instead, allow their populations to grow to the point where they eat themselves out of food, run out of territory, and eventually, die off. Killing a few is merely keeping their populations in check.


You're...you're kidding right?

1. By "keeping animal populations in check" you mean slowly but surely driving them to extinction.

2. You don't need to hunt to be responsible with guns. Ask anybody here.

3. There are better ways of keeping populations in check, like condoms and the death penalty.
1. You are thinking poachers, that illegally kill any number of animals for whatever reasons. Hunters (law-abiding ones) kill between 1-3 animals during the season, and considering that the Fish & Wildlife services support legal hunting, and agree with this, blows that out of the water.

2. How many gun owners here have gone hunting? Many of them have talked about hunting trips one time or another, not to mention I meant that learning to hunt helps you with responsible gun ownership.

3. So, you are going to put condoms on deer or antelope? And I think the death penalty would be wasting that meat. FYI, I was talking about animal populations, not human.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby mybike_yourface on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:27 pm

never mind.
Last edited by mybike_yourface on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby hecter on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:29 pm

mybike_yourface wrote:
hecter wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:
hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?
So, you guys are against not only helping to keep animal populations in control, while at the same time teaching kids how to be responsible with guns (aka, not thinking life is like a violent video game or killing people is fun), but instead, allow their populations to grow to the point where they eat themselves out of food, run out of territory, and eventually, die off. Killing a few is merely keeping their populations in check.

I'm not arguing that hunting is bad in anyway, but the fact is that you're teaching these children how to kill. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.


so should you teach children self defense? self defense can invlove killing.

#-o No, did yo... Know what, you're beyond hope.
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Postby mybike_yourface on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:32 pm

people often talk about hunting controlling animal populations. what they don't bring up is that hunters kill animals in the oppisite way that nature does. predatory animals ween out sick, old/imature and week animals while hunters generally don't. and we shouldn't ignore the fact that overpopulation of game animals is often a dirrect result of humans killing off natural predators. ironically a lot of predators have been killed off because of animal agriculture.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby mybike_yourface on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:35 pm

InkL0sed wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:
dustn64 wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:if people are responsible enough to teach their kids about gun safety, and take them hunting or something similar, for the most part, they will be okay.

Take your children out to kill innocent creatures with lethal weapons! How could they possibly get the wrong idea?
Its not really like that. People that hunt (like myself) are simply just taking out the middle man and adding enjoyment to the meals. As in:

Normal Life Span of Beef/Other Animal Meat
Cow -> Beef Processing Plant -> Store -> Consumers Home


Hunted Life Span
Deer, Bird, ect. -> Hunters Home


Sorry for trying to save the fuels that the Plants are using to process beef and making the environment better.

Oh I see now...

Take your children out with lethal weapons, kill an innocent creature while learning to use lethal weapons to induce death, celebrate the process of the killing, then eat the victim of the lethal weapon. Justify the experience of killing bear as 'eco-friendly'.

I'm so glad that I get it now... sounds much better than before





On a serious note though: How is this terribly noble attempt to reduce carbon footprints supposed to cut gun crime? Either you're killing these critters because you love the environment (and the taste of bears apparently) or because it teaches children about gun violence. Which justification are you people running with? They don't run together so well...


1) What is this with bears? I'm fairly certain that people don't hunt bears on a regular basis!

2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.


well obviously since hunting an animal involves killing it you're teaching someone to kill. but learning to kill an animal and a human are 2 different things.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby mybike_yourface on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:38 pm

hecter wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote:
hecter wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:
hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?
So, you guys are against not only helping to keep animal populations in control, while at the same time teaching kids how to be responsible with guns (aka, not thinking life is like a violent video game or killing people is fun), but instead, allow their populations to grow to the point where they eat themselves out of food, run out of territory, and eventually, die off. Killing a few is merely keeping their populations in check.

I'm not arguing that hunting is bad in anyway, but the fact is that you're teaching these children how to kill. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.


so should you teach children self defense? self defense can invlove killing.

#-o No, did yo... Know what, you're beyond hope.

no, i see what you're saying now. clearly hunting involves killing the hunted animal.
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby hecter on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:41 pm

mybike_yourface wrote:
hecter wrote:
mybike_yourface wrote:
hecter wrote:I'm not arguing that hunting is bad in anyway, but the fact is that you're teaching these children how to kill. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.


so should you teach children self defense? self defense can invlove killing.

#-o No, did yo... Know what, you're beyond hope.

no, i see what you're saying now. clearly hunting involves killing the hunted animal.

And where did I say this was a bad thing, or that we shouldn't do this?
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Re: Substitute for guns?

Postby InkL0sed on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:48 pm

hecter wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?


It would be hypocritical to eat meat and simultaneously have a problem with taking children hunting (and teaching them them the difference between hunting and murder).

Hunting = killing
Yes, I agree with that.

But if killing animals = murder, then the Holocaust was nothing, for we as humans of any and every nation are committing genocide every day.
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