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Should Whale Hunting Be Banned?

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Should Whale Hunting Be BanneD?

Poll ended at Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:50 pm

 
Total votes : 0

Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:30 am

spurgistan wrote:I say let indigenous peoples who value the whale culturally keep their ceremonial hunts, but commercialized hunting of whales like the Japanese and Norweigans do is (I believe) and should be illegal. There is actually a global moratorium on the commercial processing of whales, but the major whaling nations (Japan and Norway) say they're taking the whales for "scientific research". Which is little more than flipping the bird to the international anti-whaling movement, but they've gotten away with it for 20 years now.


Basically, since there is an international law of sorts banning it, it should be illegal but nobody is getting the cuffs.

Indigenous tribes should be allowed, since they do it only once a year and in a small water craft. I forget the name of the tribe, but Eco-maniacs here in Washington got their dreds all in bunch because of one tribe being allowed to hunt whales. Have you ever tried to find a whale in the North Pacific (generally around Vancouver Island and the Straits of Juan de Fuca) with no heated cabin, no harpoon cannon, no engine or sail (all paddles ahead!), nor sonar or other modern aids? Even on a calm day? Neither have I but I'd assume it is very, very difficult.
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Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:32 am

Neoteny wrote:
Ah, western hard-headedness meets eastern hard-headedness... So the reason the industry is still going strong is because of a dislike of the industry? "Random vitriol?" I think you gave a pretty good discussion until that point. I sincerely doubt the continued whaling is reactionary western-bashing (that might be the reason people are spouting, but it holds as much water as a paper bag, I suspect (and sincerely hope) there is a deeper, more relevant reason), and if it is, then it needs to be stopped by the Japanese government, if noone else. To say that we need to respect cultural or societal flaws at the expense of possible destruction of environment is ridiculous. We're not just talking about current populations when we talk about ecology. Fucking up an ecosystem now is destructive to our children, grandchildren etc.

I understand the Japanese perspective of culture is one that is central to their worldview, but my worldview, and that of many individuals currently, is that we can't fully know the impact of humans on the environment, but history leads us to believe that most of our impact has been negative with respect to other species. We are seeing signs that we have already fucked things up bad enough as is, and any reckless abuse of the any ecological industry must be curbed, as, though we don't know what might happen, chances are it will be bad. And who's to say which worldview is better, or should be imposed on? They are imposing on mine, if I am not imposing on theirs (though I'm not, see below).


Economically, I don't have that much pity for Japan. If this were Ethiopia we were talking about, I would say they need the whales, but it's not. The Japanese are fully capable of maintaining the weaker portions of their economy. If people don't care about whale either way, then it obviously won't be contributing that much anyway. I don't think America has any right to legislate the hunting of whales for Japan. But I think it is irresponsible, and stupid, for the Japanese government not to.


Thanks for the response. The random vitriol I was talking about wasn't opposition to whaling, but rather some of the stranger protests and anti-Japanese sentiments (for example, saying that Japanese whaling is bad, but that native American whaling is ok) from the extreme end of the argument. Even your arguments implied that the Japanese government is stupid, and that their culture is flawed. That's bound to get anyone's back up. Sea Shepherd comes to mind with their attempts to ram and sink Japanese ships. Japanese people will tend to see these kinds of protests as childish. Still, I wasn't very clear. I'm not really for whaling, but I can see the Japanese side and I don't think a ban is the best way to stop the industry.

Unfortunately, I do believe that much of the Japanese attitude towards whaling is a reactionary response from a culture that genuinely feels that it's dying. Low birth rates, migration from the countryside, and increasing social problems all combine to make people feel that areas of Japanese culture are simply being lost to time.

Government support of whaling is one area where Japan hopes to preserve elements of traditional life. As I mentioned before, agricultural subsidies in the EU and US work in a similar way. They both make little sense on a large economic or global scale, but they keep parts of the country running, and they get politicians elected. That's why the Japanese government won't be seeking to stop the industry any time soon. It's not really about the Japanese economy, but about the economies of small rural towns and villages that would simply die if they had to stop the industry that supported them for hundreds of years. I wouldn't really portray this as western-bashing though (after all, the other major whalers are all western, I believe). It's not out of spite, but rather a sense of defense.

Finally, it should be noted that most Japanese people care very little about the issue as it is currently being debated. Most Japanese people are very pragmatic eaters. Whales are just another animal like pigs, cows, and chickens. Although there is a great deal of respect afforded to whales (you should check out some of the shrines dedicated to them in areas that whale the most), they are still just a source of food. Japan has so far managed to be fairly responsible in it's hunting of whales compared to other countries. The hunt is cruel, but so is factory farming. Neither are likely to stop soon. Best let the industry die out slowly as other foods become more popular, rather than banning it outright on an arbitrary desire of other nations. At least then the areas most affected will be able to adapt.
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Postby Skittles! on Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:46 am

Japanese whaling should stay in its own sea bound area and not go into international waters or other country waters (such as Australia). They have their water to do their whaling, and if they can't get some whales during Winter does not mean they have the right to go into other waters where that country has banned whaling. If you have to stop for a little while during the year, I'm sure it won't destroy a town.

Go ahead with whaling, but make sure it's not interfering with other countries that have banned whaling themselves.
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Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:52 am

Finally, I recommend this article from the BBC:

Did Greens help kill the whale?

A nice summary of some of the anti-Japanese sentiments involved in the arguments, as well as an account of the Japanese reaction, and the deeper politics of both sides of the argument.

Skittles- the article has a good section on your objection too.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:02 am

I just find it fasnating how they can sign an international treaty and then on a seeming whim ignore it. If it were any tin-pot regime, violation of international law generally results in UN sanctions and/or invasion by a UN-mandated (or at least NATO-backed) peacekeeping force.
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Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:16 am

Jenos- read the article I posted, it's not very long.

Also, Japan is looking to bail out the US economy after the sub-prime crisis. Sanctions= bad idea.
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Postby lozzini on Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:41 pm

Skittles! wrote:Japanese whaling should stay in its own sea bound area and not go into international waters or other country waters (such as Australia). They have their water to do their whaling, and if they can't get some whales during Winter does not mean they have the right to go into other waters where that country has banned whaling. If you have to stop for a little while during the year, I'm sure it won't destroy a town.

Go ahead with whaling, but make sure it's not interfering with other countries that have banned whaling themselves.


so you want some kind of border police in the seas? think of the costs

did the report today ppl, i think it went well, thanks for the advice
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Postby Neoteny on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:23 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Ah, western hard-headedness meets eastern hard-headedness... So the reason the industry is still going strong is because of a dislike of the industry? "Random vitriol?" I think you gave a pretty good discussion until that point. I sincerely doubt the continued whaling is reactionary western-bashing (that might be the reason people are spouting, but it holds as much water as a paper bag, I suspect (and sincerely hope) there is a deeper, more relevant reason), and if it is, then it needs to be stopped by the Japanese government, if noone else. To say that we need to respect cultural or societal flaws at the expense of possible destruction of environment is ridiculous. We're not just talking about current populations when we talk about ecology. Fucking up an ecosystem now is destructive to our children, grandchildren etc.

I understand the Japanese perspective of culture is one that is central to their worldview, but my worldview, and that of many individuals currently, is that we can't fully know the impact of humans on the environment, but history leads us to believe that most of our impact has been negative with respect to other species. We are seeing signs that we have already fucked things up bad enough as is, and any reckless abuse of the any ecological industry must be curbed, as, though we don't know what might happen, chances are it will be bad. And who's to say which worldview is better, or should be imposed on? They are imposing on mine, if I am not imposing on theirs (though I'm not, see below).


Economically, I don't have that much pity for Japan. If this were Ethiopia we were talking about, I would say they need the whales, but it's not. The Japanese are fully capable of maintaining the weaker portions of their economy. If people don't care about whale either way, then it obviously won't be contributing that much anyway. I don't think America has any right to legislate the hunting of whales for Japan. But I think it is irresponsible, and stupid, for the Japanese government not to.


Thanks for the response. The random vitriol I was talking about wasn't opposition to whaling, but rather some of the stranger protests and anti-Japanese sentiments (for example, saying that Japanese whaling is bad, but that native American whaling is ok) from the extreme end of the argument. Even your arguments implied that the Japanese government is stupid, and that their culture is flawed. That's bound to get anyone's back up. Sea Shepherd comes to mind with their attempts to ram and sink Japanese ships. Japanese people will tend to see these kinds of protests as childish. Still, I wasn't very clear. I'm not really for whaling, but I can see the Japanese side and I don't think a ban is the best way to stop the industry.

Unfortunately, I do believe that much of the Japanese attitude towards whaling is a reactionary response from a culture that genuinely feels that it's dying. Low birth rates, migration from the countryside, and increasing social problems all combine to make people feel that areas of Japanese culture are simply being lost to time.

Government support of whaling is one area where Japan hopes to preserve elements of traditional life. As I mentioned before, agricultural subsidies in the EU and US work in a similar way. They both make little sense on a large economic or global scale, but they keep parts of the country running, and they get politicians elected. That's why the Japanese government won't be seeking to stop the industry any time soon. It's not really about the Japanese economy, but about the economies of small rural towns and villages that would simply die if they had to stop the industry that supported them for hundreds of years. I wouldn't really portray this as western-bashing though (after all, the other major whalers are all western, I believe). It's not out of spite, but rather a sense of defense.

Finally, it should be noted that most Japanese people care very little about the issue as it is currently being debated. Most Japanese people are very pragmatic eaters. Whales are just another animal like pigs, cows, and chickens. Although there is a great deal of respect afforded to whales (you should check out some of the shrines dedicated to them in areas that whale the most), they are still just a source of food. Japan has so far managed to be fairly responsible in it's hunting of whales compared to other countries. The hunt is cruel, but so is factory farming. Neither are likely to stop soon. Best let the industry die out slowly as other foods become more popular, rather than banning it outright on an arbitrary desire of other nations. At least then the areas most affected will be able to adapt.


:D I call all current governments stupid to some extent, so I definitely wouldn't be singling out the Japanese one. I also call all cultures flawed to certain extents, so I'm not singling them out there either. Good clarification, and I can agree with your tone a bit more in this post. I suppose that it really just comes down to the different views in the east and my peculiar form of western perspective on culture. I don't have respect for tradition (the beauty pageant we call the State of the Union is a ridiculous American tradition). I don't see a culture change as an erosion; I see it as an evolution. As humans, we will always have culture, it just might not be what it has always been. Clinging to the past is very unattractive to me. But I appreciate the summary of Japanese perspective on the issue.

Oh, and destruction of private property is bad. I can agree with their goals, but the Sea Shepherds need to stop that. It's kind of a dick thing to do.
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Postby apey on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:35 pm

Hey whale hunting is important































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