Conquer Club

This true story was made into a song, WARNING! Not for the faint of heart.

Witch's Invitation

I like this song (or at least melody, it's a little short on vocals) better, at least you can't rightfully accuse me of trying to rickroll you this time. They start playing around 1:20 and the story it's based on is at least as true as the one in jay's video.

Really beautiful part starting at 8:03, if you skip the rest, at least listen from there to end.

The next obvious song based on a true story leads us here. This one's a winner from the get-go.

Neoteny wrote:The next obvious song based on a true story leads us here. This one's a winner from the get-go.

Isn't that the chocolate rain guy?

I like the teachings of Jesus, I also find similar teachings with the Buddha. However, I do not believe for one second that there is an eternal Hell of fiery brimstone where I (or anyone else for that matter) will burn forever and ever. When Jesus speaks about Hell, he actually speaks of two different places (and if you include Peter 2, there are three), all of which have been given the term Hell.

Someone can please correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I understand it:

Sheol=the Hebrew name for "the grave" which can mean the literal grave of a man or the communal grave of all mankind regardless of religious affiliations, where there is no after life, no knowledge, no nothing, but just and ending of existence. A very simple atheistic version of what happens when we die.

Gehenna=the name given to the main dumping ground outside of Jerusalem where the Hebrews burned their garbage and Jesus used the term as a metaphor to teach his disciples about what happens with immorality when it gathers too much in society. (you can debate this, but I believe Jesus only used this as a teaching metaphor or parable of which we can grasp a larger understanding of society, not a literal place where we go in the after life, but a societal reality in which we end up overtime, of which must be dealt with, and sometimes violently so, like fire that needs to purify through pain and suffering. But I believe Jesus wanted to purify us like WINE and WATER, of which you could add a little bit of wine to unclean water to purify it).

and finally in 2 Peter 2:4 it mentions the term Tartarus of which in some versions will be described as Hell (which is only a phonetic variant of the Hebrew term Sheol without the "s"), but it is a description of a third place...a place that was reserved for judgment of the Angels that sinned against God. An underworld concept, a pit of dense foreboding darkness of which may be similar to the realm that Pluto governed in Greek mythology.

But the later Romanized Christians lumped all of these terms into what we know today as Hell. A place of eternal fiery torment where we go if we say shit or goddamn or wank off in the shower. Man, if we all had to live so righteously to avoid the Christian depiction of Hell, we would be the creepiest people on the planet!

And D&D being a tool of the devil? Come on, it's a game. I've played it for years and have no desire to go out and start worshiping Satan. I realize what it is, and leave it in the category of game (not a religion).

Now, if only witches and warlocks could really turn people into frogs, that would be incredible! But alas, witchcraft does not do that kind of stuff. It may teach you about people's supposed psychic nature's, but actually polymorphing people into other animals! LOL! What a made up lie to try to scare people into control.

The same aspect has been used for thousands of years to control mass populations, religion is a great tool to do so. It plays on people's very nature to want to believe in a greater force over themselves. A Cosmic Father or Mother, and the Christians adopted God/Holy Spirit/Jesus and Mary to take on these rolls of creation of which we understand, as reproduction is a symbol of the creative force of nature.

I am not saying that there is no God, as I believe in a creative force and I have no problem with calling it God, but the concept of this Almighty Creative force that can make anything It wants (as it is neither female nor male) should somehow choose to impregnate a virgin?

Jay, I wish you would watch Zeitgeist. It would give you a better understanding of the origins of Christianity. The film may spark controversy with the Christian community, but it is well needed. If we as human beings can see myths and legends as actually an important facet of human culture in which we can learn certain life/spiritual lessons from, the more we can start getting along with one another despite our belief systems.

Truthfully, the Wiccan reed is pretty straight forward: If it harm none, do as you will.

Which is another version of the golden rule of Christianity.

I enjoy myths, legends, and stories. I enjoy reading the Bible, Quran, and Lord of the Rings. There are teachings, metaphors, and parables prevalent in all of them. Even Anton LaVey (the founder of the Church of Satan) has a few teachings that can help people in their lives (especially the one that states: if you meet a man in the wilderness and he bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, kill him. It might sound evil, but it is basic self preservation).

Well, I guess this means that I haven't fully accepted Christianity...I have a hard time excepting Christianity as I think the prophet John of Patmos warns against the Neo-Christians of the future in Revelation. I still enjoy the teachings of the Gospels, and I do use them as a guide in my day to day life. I especially like the Gospel according to John Chapter 15. Some real good stuff there.

DaGip, Zeitgeist (at least part 1) was proven to be a hoax, a lot of misinformation. For some reason they deleted the response to it .(go figure)

I suggest you look into, maybe do a study on hell. "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, for it is better to lose a limb than for your entire body to be cast into hell", "a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth". I can't remember where it is located but the story of the rich man who was in hell who asked an angel for just one drop of water. You can deny its existence but that does not make it go away.

jay_a2j wrote:DaGip, Zeitgeist (at least part 1) was proven to be a hoax, a lot of misinformation. For some reason they deleted the response to it .(go figure)

I suggest you look into, maybe do a study on hell. "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, for it is better to lose a limb than for your entire body to be cast into hell", "a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth". I can't remember where it is located but the story of the rich man who was in hell who asked an angel for just one drop of water. You can deny its existence but that does not make it go away.

The first verse you are describing is actually translated as "the fiery Gehenna".

The second I am not sure about.

Jay, there are so many different versions of the Bible, that it is hard to keep track of all the variations, but the literal translations would take the word Hell and it would actually be replaced with one of the three variants I gave to you in my early post:

Sheol
Gehenna
Tartarus

I may need some more people to debate this to get it right, because if we just have Christians debating me on this issue, they will swear up and down the Word of God that Hell is the only term that is in their Bible, and they will be correct, as that is how these three terms were lumped into one fiery, soul-punishing understanding in their versions of the Bible.

What we need is an actual Hebrew text scholar on the issue, of which you and I are not.

All I kind think of are the words magical mascots!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNX9s1uQmWE

MeDeFe wrote:

Neoteny wrote:The next obvious song based on a true story leads us here. This one's a winner from the get-go.

Isn't that the chocolate rain guy?

Of course.

Here is one version of the Bible that has taken the correct translation:

2 Peter 2:3-5 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved.
[Holman Christian Standard Bible] [Broadman Holman]

3 In their greed (A) they will exploit (B) you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, (C) [pronounced] long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep.

4 For if God didn't spare (D) the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus (E) [a] and delivered them to be kept in chains [b] of darkness until judgment; (F) 5 and if He didn't spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, (G) a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, (H) [c] when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;

Whereas, most of the English translations are going to disregard the term Tartarus and just simply replace it with the word Hell:

2 Peter 2:3-5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

The basic Christian understanding is that Sheol/Gehenna/Tartarus are all one and the same, but if you really look at the contexts of each you would see that each is a specific different realm of existence.

The Grave/The Garbage Dump/Celestial Prison

Here are verses with the term Gehenna properly interjected (although they still include the term hell):

Amplified Bible Version
1. Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice (enmity of heart) against him shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the court; and whoever speaks contemptuously and insultingly to his brother shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 5:29
If your right eye serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, pluck it out and throw it away. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be cast into hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 5:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
3. Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your entire body should be cast into hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 5:29-31 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
4. Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)
5. Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to stumble and sin, pluck it out and throw it away from you; it is better (more profitable and wholesome) for you to enter life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the hell (Gehenna) of fire.
Matthew 18:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
6. Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes one [a proselyte], you make him doubly as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
7. Matthew 23:33
You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna)?
Matthew 23:32-34 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
8. Mark 9:43
And if your hand puts a stumbling block before you and causes you to sin, cut it off! It is more profitable and wholesome for you to go into life [ that is really worthwhile] maimed than with two hands to go to hell (Gehenna), into the fire that cannot be put out.
Mark 9:42-44 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
9. Mark 9:45
And if your foot is a cause of stumbling and sin to you, cut it off! It is more profitable and wholesome for you to enter into life [that is really worthwhile] crippled than, having two feet, to be cast into hell (Gehenna) .
Mark 9:44-46 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
10. Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to stumble and sin, pluck it out! It is more profitable and wholesome for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell (Gehenna),
Mark 9:46-48 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)

I strongly recommend this book: 23 Minutes In Hell


There is also another very good book called: To Hell and Back This was written by someone who did not at first believe in God. It is a really good read.

jay_a2j wrote:I strongly recommend this book: 23 Minutes In Hell


There is also another very good book called: To Hell and Back This was written by someone who did not at first believe in God. It is a really good read.

I fear more of the suffering and cruelty on this planet than in the hereafter. Did this guy have a watch on to time himself? How did he come up with the number 23? Come on, Jay, the guy started hallucinating and he had some negative emotions that he didn't deal with correctly on this planet. He wasn't ready to die, and perhaps that bit of fright brought him back.

The guy was already programmed with this Christian negative version of a supposed Hell. When you die, your mind will hallucinate and you will experience probably many different sensations during the process in which your brain and body are shutting down, Hell or Heaven may be one of these hallucinations we mentally create to deal with the reality that we are dying.

My personal belief is that Heaven and Hell are both one and the same, it just depends on people's perspectives, and both of which are located right here on Earth, not up in the sky or down under the ground.

My belief is that I will hallucinate about many things, some good and some bad. I may feel regret over those things and those feelings may manifest themselves as hallucinations that punish my supposed emotions of guilt, but if you can realize this while you are dying, you will be much better off. Sometimes a sentient being needs to go through a form of Hell before it can get to a state of Heaven.

Personally, I believe all the vibrations that form the dynamic system of my human body and mind will quantumly jump from this perceived existence into another perceived existence. Reincarnation, of which your video is telling me is a Devil's trick.

But the process of reincarnation makes more sense to an atheist than a Christian Heaven/Hell, of which Heaven is nearly unobtainable and Hell is the eternal burning and flaying of flesh...come on, Jay. Hell is not a real place, it is like a bad dream that you have, except that you are actually dying, and your fear becomes amplified because you just aren't ready to go. You haven't truly dealt with your negative emotions in your life and this is a way for your brain to do that for you when your life is seeping from your body.

If there is really a Hell as you are trying to describe, then you can safely bet that I will hate God and the concept of God, and hopefully I can at least see Jesus one time so I can kick him squarely in the balls.

(I am going to Hell for saying this, ain't I?)

DaGip wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:I strongly recommend this book: 23 Minutes In Hell


There is also another very good book called: To Hell and Back This was written by someone who did not at first believe in God. It is a really good read.

I fear more of the suffering and cruelty on this planet than in the hereafter. Did this guy have a watch on to time himself? How did he come up with the number 23? Come on, Jay, the guy started hallucinating and he had some negative emotions that he didn't deal with correctly on this planet. He wasn't ready to die, and perhaps that bit of fright brought him back.

The guy was already programmed with this Christian negative version of a supposed Hell. When you die, your mind will hallucinate and you will experience probably many different sensations during the process in which your brain and body are shutting down, Hell or Heaven may be one of these hallucinations we mentally create to deal with the reality that we are dying.

My personal belief is that Heaven and Hell are both one and the same, it just depends on people's perspectives, and both of which are located right here on Earth, not up in the sky or down under the ground.

My belief is that I will hallucinate about many things, some good and some bad. I may feel regret over those things and those feelings may manifest themselves as hallucinations that punish my supposed emotions of guilt, but if you can realize this while you are dying, you will be much better off. Sometimes a sentient being needs to go through a form of Hell before it can get to a state of Heaven.

Personally, I believe all the vibrations that form the dynamic system of my human body and mind will quantumly jump from this perceived existence into another perceived existence. Reincarnation, of which your video is telling me is a Devil's trick.

But the process of reincarnation makes more sense to an atheist than a Christian Heaven/Hell, of which Heaven is nearly unobtainable and Hell is the eternal burning and flaying of flesh...come on, Jay. Hell is not a real place, it is like a bad dream that you have, except that you are actually dying, and your fear becomes amplified because you just aren't ready to go. You haven't truly dealt with your negative emotions in your life and this is a way for your brain to do that for you when your life is seeping from your body.

If there is really a Hell as you are trying to describe, then you can safely bet that I will hate God and the concept of God, and hopefully I can at least see Jesus one time so I can kick him squarely in the balls.

(I am going to Hell for saying this, ain't I?)

Well that post certainly settles it. Your faith is built on sand. You are very "shaky" in what you believe. If you are interested in truth, read the Bible. For what is says not trying to find "hidden meaning". I have been a Christian for over 20 years. Its not "a bad dream".

23 minutes? Maybe he looked at a clock before the event and then, looked at it again when it was over? Or maybe he just knew how much time had elapsed. You are analyzing this through human logic, which is your first mistake.

There is NO AMOUNT of suffering on this Earth that can hold a candle to the suffering in hell. You will hate God or you already do? Sorry that God doesn't shape eternity to suit what WE would like.

On a side note, if reincarnation was an option, the population of the world would remain CONSTANT. But it doesn't, it grows.


You have to make a choice, get serious about wanting to know God or not.

jay_a2j wrote:Well that post certainly settles it. Your faith is built on sand. You are very "shaky" in what you believe.

I believe in a Creative Entity, I mean, I believe in the Sun. I can see it, I can bask in its light. It gives me warmth and it helps things grow. If it wasn't for the Sun the world wouldn't exist, the same goes for all the Stars in the Universe. If it wasn't for the Stars, none of us would be around, because without the formation of Stars would mean that the principles of thermodynamics are moot.

I don't need a preacher to tell me stories about a flood, or some long haired hippy getting nailed to a telephone pole. They are nice myths and legends, but the reality is that those things are not the real issues in life. The real issues in life are what we are dealing with as a world civilization right now! So as Jesus said: "Leave the dead for the dead..." start worrying about the problems and situations you have at hand today, instead of those that have already passed away into history.

jay_a2j wrote:If you are interested in truth, read the Bible. For what is says not trying to find "hidden meaning". I have been a Christian for over 20 years. Its not "a bad dream".

Listen, jay, I have read the Bible and I still do read the Bible. And as far as "hidden meaning" goes, what do you think Jesus was doing with his parables. Surely, you don't think he told those parables to be taken literally, do you? Jesus supplanted "hidden meanings" in the forms of metaphors as a teaching guide for his disciples. And how would you know that it isn't a "bad dream" as you have yet to experience death in all its glory?

jay_a2j wrote:23 minutes? Maybe he looked at a clock before the event and then, looked at it again when it was over? Or maybe he just knew how much time had elapsed. You are analyzing this through human logic, which is your first mistake.

I guess he could have glanced at a clock or his watch before he grabbed his heart and hit the floor, or perhaps 23 minutes was what he estimated, but why 23? I think the guy just picked the number 23 to make the title of his book sound cooler. I mean who would buy a book that was titled "20 minutes in Hell"? Or "I Estimate I Spent Approximately 25 Minutes In Hell, Give Or Take A Few Minutes"?

And how do you know what that guy is telling you is the truth? Just because the guy says he is a Christian now? The guy had a hallucination when his body shut down and his brain was still firing, it is as simple as that. There is no metaphysical/esoteric other worldly realm of which his soul traveled.

And how else am I supposed to analyze things? I am human after all. However, you must not be human as apparently you can analyze things using some form of Hyperdimensional Understanding of the true nature of the Universe.

jay_a2j wrote:There is NO AMOUNT of suffering on this Earth that can hold a candle to the suffering in hell. You will hate God or you already do? Sorry that God doesn't shape eternity to suit what WE would like.

Hmmm? Well, I would say that there are many instances of suffering on this planet in which we could rightly compare to being hellish in nature. And I do not hate God, as it is silly to hate something that really doesn't give a shit about any of us. But if there is a God that has created a pit of eternal despair and torment, then yes, I hate that God...that is an evil God as far as I am concerned, and I will hate it with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind. But my concept of God doesn't have a Hell to toss us into when we die, but He is like a big recycling plant and poops us out as new aluminum cans to be filled with beer or soda pop. So the recycling process might be a little painful at first, but the end product will be okay. Is this making any sense? But I would still kick Jesus in the nutsack if I met him.

jay_a2j wrote:On a side note, if reincarnation was an option, the population of the world would remain CONSTANT. But it doesn't, it grows.

Jay, have you ever heard of the term quantum tunneling? Don't you think there is other life forms out in the Universe? Those energies can cross over instantaneously and remanifest themselves as other beings, in addition, human populace may be growing, but perhaps there are other entities on the planet that are dwindling. It is known as the process of enlightenment of which Buddha taught. Where one life form evolves enough in its current form and manifests into another higher form of consciousness.

jay_a2j wrote:You have to make a choice, get serious about wanting to know God or not.

I did, and I have known It, and It has a great sense of humor. It loves all of creation and places each living being where it needs to be to evolve and to grow, so as those living beings can pass on the concept of enlightenment to others, so those too can evolve and grow.

Perhaps it is you, Jay, that needs to get to know God? Perhaps your point of view (as well as billions of Christians) are wrong? Perhaps Jesus is just a myth? Myths are fun! I really do think I would have gotten along great with Jesus back in the day, however, he's dead now, and ain't coming back. So can we just learn and live and carry on now?

jay_a2j wrote:This true story was made into a song, WARNING! Not for the faint of heart.

Witch's Invitation

You are the biggest moron I have ever known.

DaGip wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:Well that post certainly settles it. Your faith is built on sand. You are very "shaky" in what you believe.

I believe in a Creative Entity, I mean, I believe in the Sun. I can see it, I can bask in its light. It gives me warmth and it helps things grow. If it wasn't for the Sun the world wouldn't exist, the same goes for all the Stars in the Universe. If it wasn't for the Stars, none of us would be around, because without the formation of Stars would mean that the principles of thermodynamics are moot.

I don't need a preacher to tell me stories about a flood, or some long haired hippy getting nailed to a telephone pole. They are nice myths and legends, but the reality is that those things are not the real issues in life. The real issues in life are what we are dealing with as a world civilization right now! So as Jesus said: "Leave the dead for the dead..." start worrying about the problems and situations you have at hand today, instead of those that have already passed away into history.

jay_a2j wrote:If you are interested in truth, read the Bible. For what is says not trying to find "hidden meaning". I have been a Christian for over 20 years. Its not "a bad dream".

Listen, jay, I have read the Bible and I still do read the Bible. And as far as "hidden meaning" goes, what do you think Jesus was doing with his parables. Surely, you don't think he told those parables to be taken literally, do you? Jesus supplanted "hidden meanings" in the forms of metaphors as a teaching guide for his disciples. And how would you know that it isn't a "bad dream" as you have yet to experience death in all its glory?

jay_a2j wrote:23 minutes? Maybe he looked at a clock before the event and then, looked at it again when it was over? Or maybe he just knew how much time had elapsed. You are analyzing this through human logic, which is your first mistake.

I guess he could have glanced at a clock or his watch before he grabbed his heart and hit the floor, or perhaps 23 minutes was what he estimated, but why 23? I think the guy just picked the number 23 to make the title of his book sound cooler. I mean who would buy a book that was titled "20 minutes in Hell"? Or "I Estimate I Spent Approximately 25 Minutes In Hell, Give Or Take A Few Minutes"?

And how do you know what that guy is telling you is the truth? Just because the guy says he is a Christian now? The guy had a hallucination when his body shut down and his brain was still firing, it is as simple as that. There is no metaphysical/esoteric other worldly realm of which his soul traveled.

And how else am I supposed to analyze things? I am human after all. However, you must not be human as apparently you can analyze things using some form of Hyperdimensional Understanding of the true nature of the Universe.

jay_a2j wrote:There is NO AMOUNT of suffering on this Earth that can hold a candle to the suffering in hell. You will hate God or you already do? Sorry that God doesn't shape eternity to suit what WE would like.

Hmmm? Well, I would say that there are many instances of suffering on this planet in which we could rightly compare to being hellish in nature. And I do not hate God, as it is silly to hate something that really doesn't give a shit about any of us. But if there is a God that has created a pit of eternal despair and torment, then yes, I hate that God...that is an evil God as far as I am concerned, and I will hate it with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind. But my concept of God doesn't have a Hell to toss us into when we die, but He is like a big recycling plant and poops us out as new aluminum cans to be filled with beer or soda pop. So the recycling process might be a little painful at first, but the end product will be okay. Is this making any sense? But I would still kick Jesus in the nutsack if I met him.

jay_a2j wrote:On a side note, if reincarnation was an option, the population of the world would remain CONSTANT. But it doesn't, it grows.

Jay, have you ever heard of the term quantum tunneling? Don't you think there is other life forms out in the Universe? Those energies can cross over instantaneously and remanifest themselves as other beings, in addition, human populace may be growing, but perhaps there are other entities on the planet that are dwindling. It is known as the process of enlightenment of which Buddha taught. Where one life form evolves enough in its current form and manifests into another higher form of consciousness.

jay_a2j wrote:You have to make a choice, get serious about wanting to know God or not.

I did, and I have known It, and It has a great sense of humor. It loves all of creation and places each living being where it needs to be to evolve and to grow, so as those living beings can pass on the concept of enlightenment to others, so those too can evolve and grow.

Perhaps it is you, Jay, that needs to get to know God? Perhaps your point of view (as well as billions of Christians) are wrong? Perhaps Jesus is just a myth? Myths are fun! I really do think I would have gotten along great with Jesus back in the day, however, he's dead now, and ain't coming back. So can we just learn and live and carry on now?

I can see there is no point in talking to you. Good luck with your "faith". You might consider taking Jesus' words out of your signature because as you state in your post, you believe the opposite and have replaced the word "love" with "hate". And why quote a "myth" right?

I like my signature. Those are good words to live by. But if God just throws people into fiery pits of torture and torment for all of eternity, then yes...I will hate that God. That is not the God I believe in, sorry.

DAGip, I just have a quick question for you?

If there is no hell, then why did Christ come and die? As a Christian, my belief is he didn't have to die. And in old Testament when it talks about A Savior, (which the Jews are still waiting for) Why would we need a Savior, if there was no hell?

Beastly wrote:DAGip, I just have a quick question for you?

If there is no hell, then why did Christ come and die? As a Christian, my belief is he didn't have to die. And in old Testament when it talks about A Savior, (which the Jews are still waiting for) Why would we need a Savior, if there was no hell?

That's two questions...