Conquer Club

This was getting interesting in some other thread, so deserves its own.

Argument:

If god is omniscient - if he knows everything that was, is and will be - then everything you do and every decision you make have been known to him since the beginning of time.

OK?

Now if that is the case, all we are doing is reading from a script. We have no real choices. If we did, we could surprise god - and since he knows everything, that is impossible.

Free will is impossible if there exists an omniscient creator. The fact that i chose to start this thread has been an inevitability from the very start of creation. I had no real choice. The idea that god gave us the choice to believe in him, when he has known all along which of us will and which of us won't, is not 'choice' at all, anymore than Neo has a choice about wether or not he takes the blue or the red pill.

Free will and an omniscient creator can not co-exist.

Hence, the only conceivable god is the clockmaker version

I don't think so. What if God can see every possibility? But since we have free will, we choose the way things play out. So while we still have free will, God is never surprised.

Still, I don't tend to think about what ifs concerning God, since I don't think there is such a thing. It's like asking myself "What if my pen was a sentient being and was harboring a crush for my toenail?"

And if you're an atheist and accord no credence to the metaphysical, surely all our actions result from and cause links in a vast deterministic chain stretching backwards through infinity or some T point (the big bang or whatever). Our "choices" are determined by nothing more than chemical reactions in our cerebral cortex due to movement of particles, in response to physical phenomena, themselves determined by various scientific laws.

With God and metaphysical concepts in the equation, I like to address your (fairly simple) fallacy using the analogy of the recorded football match. If a mate has told you the score, that doesn't mean it was predetermined at the time of the game, nor that the actions of football players you watch (a day later) were determined, even if what you see on your monitor is. Since God transcends spacetime, he knows the "score", if you will, of our lives, but that doesn't make them determined.

Reminds of an ancient George Carlin skit: Can god create a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?

Curmudgeonx wrote:Reminds of an ancient George Carlin skit: Can god create a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?

Love that one.

Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

william18 wrote:Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

But then he doesn't know everything. If he doesn't know which of the possible choices we will make he isn't omniscient.

william18 wrote:Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

This argument isn't valid because it just distracts from the fact that god, were he omniscient, would know which path you were going to take. Just because there are other ones out there doesn't give you free will if he really knows all. Either he knows what you're going to do, or he isn't omniscient.

Yeah, and I was just fast-posted. Ass.

God exists on a different plane from us. He is beyond time. Knowing "what will happen", "what is happening", and "what happened" doesn't have the same meaning when referring to God...

OnlyAmbrose wrote:God exists on a different plane from us. He is beyond time. Knowing "what will happen", "what is happening", and "what happened" doesn't have the same meaning when referring to God...

Claiming "we can't know" is an intellectual forfeit. Why did he bother trying to explain shit to us if we can't understand it?

OnlyAmbrose wrote:God exists on a different plane from us. He is beyond time. Knowing "what will happen", "what is happening", and "what happened" doesn't have the same meaning when referring to God...

Well that is bloody convenient for the argument. "Well, dude, it is like this, God knows so much because he is just like . . um . . . everything man, he is beyond all time, space, and everything, and therefore we can't even figure him out at all man, we just gotta believe"

Neoteny wrote:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:God exists on a different plane from us. He is beyond time. Knowing "what will happen", "what is happening", and "what happened" doesn't have the same meaning when referring to God...

Claiming "we can't know" is an intellectual forfeit. Why did he bother trying to explain shit to us if we can't understand it?

Well, he probably figured he could garner a billion or so loyal followers if he was specific enough to lay out a faith but vague enough to remain outside the realm of proof.

Also: I GOTTA BELIEVE!

Frigidus wrote:Also: I GOTTA BELIEVE!

How old are you, 40?

Seriously, that game was amazing.

Neoteny wrote:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:God exists on a different plane from us. He is beyond time. Knowing "what will happen", "what is happening", and "what happened" doesn't have the same meaning when referring to God...

Claiming "we can't know" is an intellectual forfeit. Why did he bother trying to explain shit to us if we can't understand it?

I never said we can't know I said we don't know. If you want to try to understand what it's like to be beyond time and space, then by all means go ahead and get back to me when you think you know what it's like.

Well, he probably figured he could garner a billion or so loyal followers if he was specific enough to lay out a faith but vague enough to remain outside the realm of proof.

This thread isn't about a proof for God, it's about a philosophical or theological debate about the nature of God's knowledge.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:God exists on a different plane from us. He is beyond time. Knowing "what will happen", "what is happening", and "what happened" doesn't have the same meaning when referring to God...

Claiming "we can't know" is an intellectual forfeit. Why did he bother trying to explain shit to us if we can't understand it?

I never said we can't know I said we don't know. If you want to try to understand what it's like to be beyond time and space, then by all means go ahead and get back to me when you think you know what it's like.

Well, he probably figured he could garner a billion or so loyal followers if he was specific enough to lay out a faith but vague enough to remain outside the realm of proof.

This thread isn't about a proof for God, it's about a philosophical or theological debate about the nature of God's knowledge.

If you want to pretend you can understand something "on a different plane from us," you go right ahead. Meanwhile, when he comes crashing through creating zombies, I think it's safe to say he's acting on the same plane as us, whatever that means, and is understandable empirically.

Neoteny wrote:

william18 wrote:Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

This argument isn't valid because it just distracts from the fact that god, were he omniscient, would know which path you were going to take. Just because there are other ones out there doesn't give you free will if he really knows all. Either he knows what you're going to do, or he isn't omniscient.

Yeah, and I was just fast-posted. Ass.

He does know but it isn't a detremined path, this is called precognition. Sort of like predicting what someone is going to do. This isn't exactly interfering.

william18 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

william18 wrote:Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

This argument isn't valid because it just distracts from the fact that god, were he omniscient, would know which path you were going to take. Just because there are other ones out there doesn't give you free will if he really knows all. Either he knows what you're going to do, or he isn't omniscient.

Yeah, and I was just fast-posted. Ass.

He does know but it isn't a detremined path, this is called precognition. Sort of like predicting what someone is going to do. This isn't exactly interfering.

It isn't interfering, but let's consider an example. Oedipus Rex, let's say. In Oedipus Rex Oedipus' parents are informed that their child would one day kill his father and sleep with his mother. They leave on a hill to die, fast forward, he later kills his father in a duel and sleeps with his mother. There was nothing he could do to stop this, it was fated. The fact that this precognition existed made the act unavoidable.

Frigidus wrote:

william18 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

william18 wrote:Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

This argument isn't valid because it just distracts from the fact that god, were he omniscient, would know which path you were going to take. Just because there are other ones out there doesn't give you free will if he really knows all. Either he knows what you're going to do, or he isn't omniscient.

Yeah, and I was just fast-posted. Ass.

He does know but it isn't a detremined path, this is called precognition. Sort of like predicting what someone is going to do. This isn't exactly interfering.

It isn't interfering, but let's consider an example. Oedipus Rex, let's say. In Oedipus Rex Oedipus' parents are informed that their child would one day kill his father and sleep with his mother. They leave on a hill to die, fast forward, he later kills his father in a duel and sleeps with his mother. There was nothing he could do to stop this, it was fated. The fact that this precognition existed made the act unavoidable.

It is sort of hard to comprehend but think of it this way. There is a person related to a guy named Bret. He knows that Bret will kill someone when he is 23. You might think that since he used precognition to figure this out it's inevitable. What of the person didn't know do you think it's avoidable? No Bret will still kill someone. So if God didn't know what someones going to do in their life, does that make it aviodable? No, thus making the outcome of someone's life is unchanged whether or not God has precognition or not(even though he does).

Omniscient God or not, we only have the perception of free will, not true "surprising" free will. And I'm okay with that.

If you think about it, everything that you do and think is in reaction to something, and more often than not, many somethings. When you take in genetics, past experiences, future plans (which in reality are based off of past experiences), and present circumstances, your reactions will be completely predictable. Unfortunately, you don't know all of these different factors, so prediction is futile, and thus you have the perception of free will.

And going an extra step, all of those factors can go back to the beginning of life and even time itself, which means that if an omniscient God does exist and created the universe and/or knows the universe's innermost workings, the God would know everything that was, is, and is to come because he would know all of the factors that determine man's "free will".


I personally think that God created the universe with the big bang and that he engineered the big bang in such a way as to allow him to just sit back and watch everything he planned unfold. This goes well with the theory that mass in its smallest parts is actually energy, and that the massive amount of energy needed to create the big bang was actually God and in creating the universe, God became the universe.

william18 wrote:

Frigidus wrote:

william18 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

william18 wrote:Here is a metaphor. Lets say life is an RPG, and like all good RPG's we have choices that branch out to more choices a many paths. God nows all of the avialabe choices but it's our free will that allows us to chose which choices we make.

This argument isn't valid because it just distracts from the fact that god, were he omniscient, would know which path you were going to take. Just because there are other ones out there doesn't give you free will if he really knows all. Either he knows what you're going to do, or he isn't omniscient.

Yeah, and I was just fast-posted. Ass.

He does know but it isn't a detremined path, this is called precognition. Sort of like predicting what someone is going to do. This isn't exactly interfering.

It isn't interfering, but let's consider an example. Oedipus Rex, let's say. In Oedipus Rex Oedipus' parents are informed that their child would one day kill his father and sleep with his mother. They leave on a hill to die, fast forward, he later kills his father in a duel and sleeps with his mother. There was nothing he could do to stop this, it was fated. The fact that this precognition existed made the act unavoidable.

It is sort of hard to comprehend but think of it this way. There is a person related to a guy named Bret. He knows that Bret will kill someone when he is 23. You might think that since he used precognition to figure this out it's inevitable. What of the person didn't know do you think it's avoidable? No Bret will still kill someone. So if God didn't know what someones going to do in their life, does that make it aviodable? No, thus making the outcome of someone's life is unchanged whether or not God has precognition or not(even though he does).

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that there's no free will but it isn't God's fault?

This concept of freewill, is it actually in the bible or was it just coined as a defence against awkward questions ? I have lost count of the number of times that somebody has posted ' God meant this ' or ' Gods reason was ' ... its just conjecture surely.

joecoolfrog wrote:This concept of freewill, is it actually in the bible or was it just coined as a defence against awkward questions ? I have lost count of the number of times that somebody has posted ' God meant this ' or ' Gods reason was ' ... its just conjecture surely.

I'm pretty sure various branches of Christianity have various answers to this. I believe that was the main thing with Calvinists, who believed in predestiny yadda yadda. I don't know. All this is pretty boring to me.

Frigidus wrote:

william18 wrote:

Frigidus wrote:

william18 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:
This argument isn't valid because it just distracts from the fact that god, were he omniscient, would know which path you were going to take. Just because there are other ones out there doesn't give you free will if he really knows all. Either he knows what you're going to do, or he isn't omniscient.

Yeah, and I was just fast-posted. Ass.

He does know but it isn't a detremined path, this is called precognition. Sort of like predicting what someone is going to do. This isn't exactly interfering.

It isn't interfering, but let's consider an example. Oedipus Rex, let's say. In Oedipus Rex Oedipus' parents are informed that their child would one day kill his father and sleep with his mother. They leave on a hill to die, fast forward, he later kills his father in a duel and sleeps with his mother. There was nothing he could do to stop this, it was fated. The fact that this precognition existed made the act unavoidable.

It is sort of hard to comprehend but think of it this way. There is a person related to a guy named Bret. He knows that Bret will kill someone when he is 23. You might think that since he used precognition to figure this out it's inevitable. What of the person didn't know do you think it's avoidable? No Bret will still kill someone. So if God didn't know what someones going to do in their life, does that make it aviodable? No, thus making the outcome of someone's life is unchanged whether or not God has precognition or not(even though he does).

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that there's no free will but it isn't God's fault?

No im just saying that someones future will not be changed regardless if God has precognition or not, thus meaning he can be omniscent and let people have free will.