Founding fathers WERE NOT christians.. or were not religious

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Postby jay_a2j on Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:21 pm

This is absurd. One only needs to look at our historical documents, nation anthem and other patriotic songs, even our currency to know that our founding fathers were men of faith.


Still not convinced? How about some quotes:



John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]


John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”


John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.


Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787


In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."


George Washington “ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”




Need more quotes from our founding fathers? Cause there are plenty more.


http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm




Now stop toying with me kyle! :wink:
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Postby Nappy Bone Apart on Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:12 pm

1. None of our ""important" National documents (Dec. of Independence, Constitution) mention Jesus. God, yes, but you can believe in God and not be Christian. Study word: Deists.

2. National anthem, and most patriotic songs, were written or adopted AFTER the founding of our country. Note: Pledge of Allegiance added the words "under God" during the NIXON administration. Not by Jefferson. EDIT: What does the National Anthem have to do with Christianity anyways? You might learn the words someday, they don't mention Jesus either. Or God.

3. This country was founded on the principle of freedom. Freedom from Kings, income taxes (ha!), and tyranny of any form. Including, or many more accuratly especially, religious tyranny. Until recently, there have been very few, if not no, more oppressive religions than Christianity.
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Postby jay_a2j on Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:01 am

Nappy Bone Apart wrote:1. None of our ""important" National documents (Dec. of Independence, Constitution) mention Jesus. God, yes, but you can believe in God and not be Christian. Study word: Deists.

2. National anthem, and most patriotic songs, were written or adopted AFTER the founding of our country. Note: Pledge of Allegiance added the words "under God" during the NIXON administration. Not by Jefferson. EDIT: What does the National Anthem have to do with Christianity anyways? You might learn the words someday, they don't mention Jesus either. Or God.

3. This country was founded on the principle of freedom. Freedom from Kings, income taxes (ha!), and tyranny of any form. Including, or many more accuratly especially, religious tyranny. Until recently, there have been very few, if not no, more oppressive religions than Christianity.



First of all read the THREAD TITLE. And who said anything about mentioning Jesus?

Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands! Let me re-word your statement so that it is accurate... Until recently, there has been very little Christian bashing and or banning. "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas" so as not to offend the 5% or so that call themselves atheist. Yes the majority are now required to bow to the will of the minority! Wake up! The men who founded this country were God fearing... and as you can see, alot has changed since then.
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Postby vtmarik on Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:43 am

jay_a2j wrote:First of all read the THREAD TITLE. And who said anything about mentioning Jesus?

Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands! Let me re-word your statement so that it is accurate... Until recently, there has been very little Christian bashing and or banning. "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas" so as not to offend the 5% or so that call themselves atheist. Yes the majority are now required to bow to the will of the minority! Wake up! The men who founded this country were God fearing... and as you can see, alot has changed since then.


You moron. "Happy Holidays" replaced "Merry Christmas" because CHRISTMAS ISN'T THE ONLY HOLIDAY CELEBRATED IN DECEMBER!

The men who founded this country were Christians, but they didn't create a Christian nation, they created a free nation. A nation where the state doesn't appoint a state religion (like England did). Now, we all have the freedom of religion, meaning that we can worship whoever/whatever we want. But that amendment also contains what is known as the Establishment clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

What does that mean to you or I? It means that the state steers clear of religion. The government cannot give public money to religion, it's that simple. If a government official wants to give some money to his church or to a parochial school or he/she wants to start a private foundation to assist these establishments then that's fine, but the federal government cannot give money to faith-based initiatives of any religion. Those are the rules. They weren't created by an activist judge or by some liberal, they were created by the founding fathers.
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Postby Nappy Bone Apart on Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:45 am

Christianity is defined as the belief that Jesus is Christ. Without Jesus, there is no Christianity, we'd all still be Jews. Thus, I was following the title of this thread. the Founding Fathers WERE NOT CHRISTIANS. They were Deists, on the most part. God fearing, yes, I never said they weren't. But not Christians. Maybe a fine point, but the exact point of this thread.

And show how Christianity was oppressive... lesse.. the Spanish Inquisition. The Salem Witch Trials. Crusades 1-7. The Southern Baptist Association. Pat Buchanan. David Duke. The list can go on. And yes, recently, Islam has shown itself to be more oppressive than Christianity has historically ever been. But you go back 1000 years, and the roles of Christianity and Islam were exactly reversed. Christians were the "convert em, or kill em all" group. Interesting how history repeats itself.
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Postby cowshrptrn on Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:10 am

well, most of the religious freedom was to prevent tensions within differnet denominations of christianity (catholic, protestant, and everything in between) but now it's been expanded to other religions, like judaism and hinduism.

The founding fathers were deist; i dont' knwo too much about it except that they believed god created things and that science was an art of finding out how god's creations worked, so it appealed to intelectuals who weren't completely against the notion of a god. They DID however reject any writing claiming to be the word of god, so thats no to the bible + jesus therefore not christian
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Postby jay_a2j on Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:15 am

cowshrptrn wrote:well, most of the religious freedom was to prevent tensions within differnet denominations of christianity (catholic, protestant, and everything in between) but now it's been expanded to other religions, like judaism and hinduism.

The founding fathers were deist; i dont' knwo too much about it except that they believed god created things and that science was an art of finding out how god's creations worked, so it appealed to intelectuals who weren't completely against the notion of a god. They DID however reject any writing claiming to be the word of god, so thats no to the bible + jesus therefore not christian




Did you even read the quotes I listed above? Some of them DO mention Jesus. and the Bible.
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Postby Jolly Roger on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:17 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands! Let me re-word your statement so that it is accurate... Until recently, there has been very little Christian bashing and or banning. "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas" so as not to offend the 5% or so that call themselves atheist. Yes the majority are now required to bow to the will of the minority! Wake up! The men who founded this country were God fearing... and as you can see, alot has changed since then.


I believe the name of the publication this comes from is American Demographics:
Overall, fewer people practice or preach at all. One of the most dramatic changes recorded by the survey is the sharp increase in the number of Americans who do not subscribe to any religion (a category that includes atheists, agnostics, humanists, secularists and those who do not identify with any religion). Their number has more than doubled from 14 million in 1990 (8 percent of the total population) to 29 million in 2001 (14 percent), and seems to be trending further upward. Of those professing no religion, 35 percent are between the ages of 18 and 29, while only 8 percent are over the age of 65. Looks like the next generation isn't only choosing their religion, their losing it as well.

The full report is available at http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/studies_index.htm.

And I wasn't aware that there was any law forbidding Christians to say Merry Christmas if they want. Is it hidden deep somewhere in the Patriot Act? I believe the goal of "Happy Holidays" is inclusion, recognizing the religious holidays and festivals of all citizens rather than just one group, even though it is the majority. It's not a case of the majority bowing to the will of the minority - it's more a case of the majority being respectful of the minority. No one has stolen Christmas jay...it's just not the only show in town anymore. If you don't like it, move to France.lol
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Postby P Gizzle on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:23 pm

i haven't read through this whole thread, but i thing i do know is that the Pilgrims were Puritans. i'm not sure whose case this helps, if it helps at all. i hope it does help
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Postby jay_a2j on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:27 pm

Jolly Roger wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands! Let me re-word your statement so that it is accurate... Until recently, there has been very little Christian bashing and or banning. "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas" so as not to offend the 5% or so that call themselves atheist. Yes the majority are now required to bow to the will of the minority! Wake up! The men who founded this country were God fearing... and as you can see, alot has changed since then.


I believe the name of the publication this comes from is American Demographics:
Overall, fewer people practice or preach at all. One of the most dramatic changes recorded by the survey is the sharp increase in the number of Americans who do not subscribe to any religion (a category that includes atheists, agnostics, humanists, secularists and those who do not identify with any religion). Their number has more than doubled from 14 million in 1990 (8 percent of the total population) to 29 million in 2001 (14 percent), and seems to be trending further upward. Of those professing no religion, 35 percent are between the ages of 18 and 29, while only 8 percent are over the age of 65. Looks like the next generation isn't only choosing their religion, their losing it as well.

The full report is available at http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/studies_index.htm.




Sad, we're raising a "Godless" generation. Oh, but that was said to happen in scripture. Interesting.
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Postby ZeoEmpire on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:33 pm


Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands!


NOT TRUE have you been to a muslim country if you have which one?
I have and am a Muslim i have been to Turky, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Thats only in Saudi Arabia and not their heads their body only if you are Muslim you have to cover your hair and your body
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Postby jay_a2j on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ZeoEmpire wrote:

Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands!


NOT TRUE have you been to a muslim country if you have which one?
I have and am a Muslim i have been to Turky, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Thats only in Saudi Arabia and not their heads their body only if you are Muslim you have to cover your hair.




k................... and that's not oppressive?
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Postby Jolly Roger on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:53 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands! Let me re-word your statement so that it is accurate... Until recently, there has been very little Christian bashing and or banning. "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas" so as not to offend the 5% or so that call themselves atheist. Yes the majority are now required to bow to the will of the minority! Wake up! The men who founded this country were God fearing... and as you can see, alot has changed since then.


I believe the name of the publication this comes from is American Demographics:
Overall, fewer people practice or preach at all. One of the most dramatic changes recorded by the survey is the sharp increase in the number of Americans who do not subscribe to any religion (a category that includes atheists, agnostics, humanists, secularists and those who do not identify with any religion). Their number has more than doubled from 14 million in 1990 (8 percent of the total population) to 29 million in 2001 (14 percent), and seems to be trending further upward. Of those professing no religion, 35 percent are between the ages of 18 and 29, while only 8 percent are over the age of 65. Looks like the next generation isn't only choosing their religion, their losing it as well.

The full report is available at http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/studies_index.htm.




Sad, we're raising a "Godless" generation. Oh, but that was said to happen in scripture. Interesting.


Whether or not it's sad is simply a matter of perspective. As for a Godless generation, you are clearly the type of person who considers the glass half empty considering that the demographic shows that 65% of young adults are God-full.
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Postby jay_a2j on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:10 pm

Actually that glass is full. To the brim. God has already won just waitin for the ref to complete the 10 count. :wink:
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Postby reverend_kyle on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:21 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Next....PLEASE explain how Christianity is "oppressive"? Maybe you should hang out in a Muslim country where woman are required to cover their heads and walk behind their husbands! Let me re-word your statement so that it is accurate... Until recently, there has been very little Christian bashing and or banning. "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas" so as not to offend the 5% or so that call themselves atheist. Yes the majority are now required to bow to the will of the minority! Wake up! The men who founded this country were God fearing... and as you can see, alot has changed since then.


I believe the name of the publication this comes from is American Demographics:
Overall, fewer people practice or preach at all. One of the most dramatic changes recorded by the survey is the sharp increase in the number of Americans who do not subscribe to any religion (a category that includes atheists, agnostics, humanists, secularists and those who do not identify with any religion). Their number has more than doubled from 14 million in 1990 (8 percent of the total population) to 29 million in 2001 (14 percent), and seems to be trending further upward. Of those professing no religion, 35 percent are between the ages of 18 and 29, while only 8 percent are over the age of 65. Looks like the next generation isn't only choosing their religion, their losing it as well.

The full report is available at http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/studies_index.htm.




Sad, we're raising a "Godless" generation. Oh, but that was said to happen in scripture. Interesting.



Its people like you causing this godless generation to be raised... everybody I know who has super religious whacko parents doesnt want to be religious as they grow up.
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