Conquer Club

National pride is the positive affect that the public feels towards their country as a result of their national identity. It is both the pride or sense of esteem that a person has for one's nation and the pride or self-esteem that a person derives from one's national identity.
National pride is related to feelings of patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism is love of one's country or dedicated allegiance to same, while nationalism is a strong national devotion that places one's own country above all others. National pride co-exists with patriotism and is a prerequisite of nationalism, but nationalism extends beyond national pride, and feeling national pride is not equivalent to being nationalistic (Smith and Jarkko, 1998).

I got to thinking about national pride after this comment from Heavycola:

Birth location is an accident. if your parents had to hack through miles of jungle and swim shark-infested seas to make sure you were born wherever you were born, be proud of them. But not the rock you live on.

How much national pride do you have, if any?

I agree with heavycola. You can be happy or relieved that you live in a relatively non-oppressive society, but proud because you were born within the arbitrary borders of a social construct? No, it doesn't really make sense.

You can be proud of the country you live in. Hopefully you would base that off of more than just being born there, but you could be proud of that also if you wanted, however silly it might be.

I AM SO PROUD OF MY COUNTRY AND HOW IT LOVES FREEDOM AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE SHOULD BE LOCKED UP!

I am not particularity patriotic.. well at least not in the worst sense of the word.

I do get embarrassed when our football hooligans trash a town in mainland Europe and i am happy with the way the British react in a crisis.

I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation.

In that sense of vanity and of wanting to keep the best parts of the country and what makes it worthwhile, i am patriotic.
After all if the worlds nations can be considered as independent experiments in the best societies, not perceiving pride in certain aspects would be a wasted opportunity.

But I strongly isolate that from a sense of superiority or the fundamental perception of difference between any human, wherever they were born. That, i agree, is purely chance.

jiminski wrote:I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation. [really bad food, fox hunts and awful hats whenever that queen of yours shows up]

In that sense of vanity and of wanting to keep the best parts of the country and what makes it worthwhile, i am patriotic.
After all if the worlds nations can be considered as independent experiments in the best societies, not perceiving pride in certain aspects would be a wasted opportunity.

But you'll probably largely be proud of things you have had no direct impact on at all, that are no achievement of yours at all. I see pride as something that derives from personal achievements. Being proud of something your parents did (like hacking their way through a jungle and swimming across shark infested seas to make sure you were born in a specific place) is already, well, somewhat silly. Being proud of having done that is ok, most people would probably think it's an awesome achievement.
The same applies for so-called "national characteristics", it doesn't matter what awesome quality we're talking about, what ultimately matters is whether you have it or not, not whether others think that there are a lot of people from that nation who have this specific characteristic. If you have, fine and dandy, by proud your such an awesome person, but to declare it a "national characteristic" and to be proud of it because it is a "national characteristic" carries the danger of making people think they already have it when they're not even halfway there yet, and then they won't even make the effort.

MeDeFe wrote:

jiminski wrote:I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation. [really bad food, fox hunts and awful hats whenever that queen of yours shows up]

In that sense of vanity and of wanting to keep the best parts of the country and what makes it worthwhile, i am patriotic.
After all if the worlds nations can be considered as independent experiments in the best societies, not perceiving pride in certain aspects would be a wasted opportunity.

But you'll probably largely be proud of things you have had no direct impact on at all, that are no achievement of yours at all. I see pride as something that derives from personal achievements. Being proud of something your parents did (like hacking their way through a jungle and swimming across shark infested seas to make sure you were born in a specific place) is already, well, somewhat silly. Being proud of having done that is ok, most people would probably think it's an awesome achievement.
The same applies for so-called "national characteristics", it doesn't matter what awesome quality we're talking about, what ultimately matters is whether you have it or not, not whether others think that there are a lot of people from that nation who have this specific characteristic. If you have, fine and dandy, by proud your such an awesome person, but to declare it a "national characteristic" and to be proud of it because it is a "national characteristic" carries the danger of making people think they already have it when they're not even halfway there yet, and then they won't even make the effort.

bollox

jiminski wrote:I do get embarrassed when our football hooligans trash a town in mainland Europe and i am happy with the way the British react in a crisis.

i have to disagree with you there Jimbob. i'm not at all embarrassed by our football hooligans, most of the time they are set about first by hooligans from other countries that want to be top dogs. they all know the English were the main perputrators of hooliganism and want a peice of the action. the English lads like to drink the beer and sing a few songs about England and the likes. the police usually get the wrong impression and usually get a bit heavy handed.


now i'm not a hooligan(even though most of you think i am). i've been in plenty of gang fights and most of them were not football related. just your normal city centre teenage violence. i can say i've not been in a fight like that for 16 years now and won't be starting again any time soon. those days are long gone(too many CCTV cameras ).


i am patriotic. i know there is a hell of a lot of things wrong with our country, but there is still a great deal of good going on. there is lot said about knife crime, true there is too much of it going on. there has always been gang violence, the thing is most of it was not reported or even on CCTV.


it could be worse they could all have guns like the gangs in the States.

DAZMCFC wrote:

jiminski wrote:I do get embarrassed when our football hooligans trash a town in mainland Europe and i am happy with the way the British react in a crisis.

i have to disagree with you there Jimbob. i'm not at all embarrassed by our football hooligans, most of the time they are set about first by hooligans from other countries that want to be top dogs. they all know the English were the main perputrators of hooliganism and want a peice of the action. the English lads like to drink the beer and sing a few songs about England and the likes. the police usually get the wrong impression and usually get a bit heavy handed.


now i'm not a hooligan(even though most of you think i am). i've been in plenty of gang fights and most of them were not football related. just your normal city centre teenage violence. i can say i've not been in a fight like that for 16 years now and won't be starting again any time soon. those days are long gone(too many CCTV cameras ).


i am patriotic. i know there is a hell of a lot of things wrong with our country, but there is still a great deal of good going on. there is lot said about knife crime, true there is too much of it going on. there has always been gang violence, the thing is most of it was not reported or even on CCTV.


it could be worse they could all have guns like the gangs in the States.

yeah well DaZ, things change and there is an aspect of what you say, but having been to parts of Europe after friggin idiots ruin our nations reputation, by being drunk, abusive and violent idiots! i have been embarrassed by them.. simple brother.
Now that is not to say that some don't get provoked and that most are excellent chaps, who i have had a beer with but our reputation is still bad 10 and 20 years after the fact!
Perhaps we are now unjustly ill-thought of but a respect fostered over generations can disintegrate in one night.

jiminski wrote:
I do get embarrassed when our football hooligans trash a town in mainland Europe

Yeah yeah, you think you've got problems? I get embarrassed when our cheesewanker president trashes a country in the Middle East. And DAZ, we all know you're a fucking hooligan.


Honibaz

MeDeFe wrote:

jiminski wrote:I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation. [really bad food, fox hunts and awful hats whenever that queen of yours shows up]

In that sense of vanity and of wanting to keep the best parts of the country and what makes it worthwhile, i am patriotic.
After all if the worlds nations can be considered as independent experiments in the best societies, not perceiving pride in certain aspects would be a wasted opportunity.

But you'll probably largely be proud of things you have had no direct impact on at all, that are no achievement of yours at all. I see pride as something that derives from personal achievements. Being proud of something your parents did (like hacking their way through a jungle and swimming across shark infested seas to make sure you were born in a specific place) is already, well, somewhat silly. Being proud of having done that is ok, most people would probably think it's an awesome achievement.
The same applies for so-called "national characteristics", it doesn't matter what awesome quality we're talking about, what ultimately matters is whether you have it or not, not whether others think that there are a lot of people from that nation who have this specific characteristic. If you have, fine and dandy, by proud your such an awesome person, but to declare it a "national characteristic" and to be proud of it because it is a "national characteristic" carries the danger of making people think they already have it when they're not even halfway there yet, and then they won't even make the effort.

I QFT, if anything I'm more anti-patriot, as this country has quite a bit of things that suck.

There is nothing like categorically attempting to dissect the concept of identity. We have an affinity or a repulsion towards some that at time will take the form of of curiosity and at others distrust. Love or hatred. And it can be manufactured, of course, out of our social context and how we relate to that social context.

To say that National pride co-exists with patriotism and is a prerequisite of nationalism, but nationalism extends beyond national pride, and feeling national pride is not equivalent to being nationalistic is formalistic gibber-jabber. Nationalism is the identification of oneself with a nation (presumably ones own nation). Just as one can either love or hate, be proud or be ashamed, of oneself, nationalism can exist without national pride or patriotism. Patriotism is merely a frame of reference for a certain type of nationalism... that is a sort of patriarchy where the nation is a stand in for the beloved patriarch. One can develop a fervent nationalism but not be a patriot at all. And there are so many facets to national pride that it is meaningless to draw a box around it like a simple collection of multi-colored banners.

Let it be said only that there are few who understand what a nation truly is, and from where our relations to our nation derive, even the relationship of oppression. Those who do not agree can meditate on the idea while their body is consumed by flames. And there are even fewer who understand how to deconstruct a nation. Posterity has gifted us the annuls of the creation of admirable nation-states. Yet we have no "articles of voluntary dissolution" on the record books. We have Huns sacking Rome, and plenty accounts of it. But no senate proceedings saying, "Well folks, it's been good while it lasted, but I don't think we've taken this one as far as it will go." There be but one such example in the history books we read as children, and it be so closely tied to the birth of the American Constitution and not the Republic, and be that a lesson which the nationalist have failed to adequately teach, alas. Yes, we also have the living memory of Yeltsin waving a flag from the window while protesters march for the dissolution of the USSR, but would that path lead to a destination of de-nationalism, or merely protracted conflict with the forces of nationalism.

Fircoal wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:

jiminski wrote:I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation. [really bad food, fox hunts and awful hats whenever that queen of yours shows up]

In that sense of vanity and of wanting to keep the best parts of the country and what makes it worthwhile, i am patriotic.
After all if the worlds nations can be considered as independent experiments in the best societies, not perceiving pride in certain aspects would be a wasted opportunity.

But you'll probably largely be proud of things you have had no direct impact on at all, that are no achievement of yours at all. I see pride as something that derives from personal achievements. Being proud of something your parents did (like hacking their way through a jungle and swimming across shark infested seas to make sure you were born in a specific place) is already, well, somewhat silly. Being proud of having done that is ok, most people would probably think it's an awesome achievement.
The same applies for so-called "national characteristics", it doesn't matter what awesome quality we're talking about, what ultimately matters is whether you have it or not, not whether others think that there are a lot of people from that nation who have this specific characteristic. If you have, fine and dandy, by proud your such an awesome person, but to declare it a "national characteristic" and to be proud of it because it is a "national characteristic" carries the danger of making people think they already have it when they're not even halfway there yet, and then they won't even make the effort.

I QFT, if anything I'm more anti-patriot, as this country has quite a bit of things that suck.

I'd say the exact thing if I lived where Fir does.

jiminski wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:

jiminski wrote:I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation. [really bad food, fox hunts and awful hats whenever that queen of yours shows up]

Fox hunting? Nothing wrong with fox hunting in particular, though I do understand some people are opposed to hunting of any sort.

I'm proud of our countryside and its traditions, the Boxing Day hunt meets in particular are wonderful. I'm also proud of the variety and quality of our food, I'm a bit confused as to why you picked on that. The worst food available in England is mainly American fast and convenience food, not exactly our fault.

I have no strong opinions on hats, because I'M not gay.

I'm proud of the Church of England (most of the time) for it's openness and tolerance, I'm proud of the Premier League for being the most popular domestic sporting competition in the world, I'm proud of the NHS, I'm proud of the BBC and I'm proud that so many people across the world choose to come and live here.

I think heavycola is wrong, pride in your country isn't automatic depending on where you're born, it's not something to look down on.. having pride in what your country does well is healthy and natural, so long as it's not blind.

I think i'll start a movement to reestablish ourself as a repentant colony to the motherland.


Honibaz

It's somewhat akin to the tribalism of everyone's related to you in some way. Extend that to a nation and all the sudden everyone in the nation is almost like a brother. That's where national pride ultimately comes from. The arbitrary boundaries just happen to facilitate who's your "family" and who's not.

Spuzzell wrote:

jiminski wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:

jiminski wrote:I am proud and a champion of British Liberalism and those national characteristics which i think best exemplify our nation. [really bad food, fox hunts and awful hats whenever that queen of yours shows up]

Fox hunting? Nothing wrong with fox hunting in particular, though I do understand some people are opposed to hunting of any sort.

I'm proud of our countryside and its traditions, the Boxing Day hunt meets in particular are wonderful. I'm also proud of the variety and quality of our food, I'm a bit confused as to why you picked on that. The worst food available in England is mainly American fast and convenience food, not exactly our fault.

I have no strong opinions on hats, because I'M not gay.

I'm proud of the Church of England (most of the time) for it's openness and tolerance, I'm proud of the Premier League for being the most popular domestic sporting competition in the world, I'm proud of the NHS, I'm proud of the BBC and I'm proud that so many people across the world choose to come and live here.

I think heavycola is wrong, pride in your country isn't automatic depending on where you're born, it's not something to look down on.. having pride in what your country does well is healthy and natural, so long as it's not blind.

proud of the countryside? I don't really understand what that even means.

I was born in England thanks to a lucky accident, as were the rest of you (whether english or american or australian). It had nothing to do with me. What have i got to be proud of?
I grew up in a country with a national health service, freedom of speech, a democratic system of government, beautiful countryside - I love these things and admire the people who work for and manage them, and i feel very fortunate to have been born here. It means i have a great standard of living, a free health and welfare safety net if it all goes wrong, a say in how my country and county and borough are governed. I have a shared language, idiom and to some extent cultural commonality with my neighbours and that makes me feel comfortable here. I belong.
But why would I have pride in these things? What does that even mean? If you work as an NHS nurse, you probably (hopefully) take pride in your work and your contribution to the greater good. But pride in your country? Pride in a chunk of rock that you happened to be born on? A waste of time, misguided, dangerous bunk.

hah well this is a subject which will be misunderstood due to the connotation of national pride (thanks Mand)

My point which was so expertly ignored by MeD. Thanks MeD ... (i responded with an English term which i am very proud of, not because i invented the word 'Bollox' or bollocks but becuase it is important that we are proud of national characteristics. If not, all we end up with is a homogenised mulch of indiscernible 'color'.)

I am not proud of being English in a way which pits me against any other culture, nation or religion. I am, and perhaps the word 'Pride' is what is causing the problem in interpretation, I am proud to associate myself with aspects of Englishness and Britishness. No not Fox hunting, the Queen or indeterminate cuisine; Principles of individual liberty, of fairness, inventiveness, and yeah maybe the ability to lose gracefully at any given sport, for a long time grace seemed much more important than victory... how bloody civilised!

I do not feel that it is impossible to separate the small mindedness inherent in what is traditionally 'Pride in ones Nation'. What i was trying to impart is that holding it is what defines a nation and keeps it to the best of what it can be.

Now i understand peoples fear of the concept but i have come out the other side.

Being proud of one's country is tantamount to having pride in one's people. They are what make that rock what it is.
I am proud to be british - I'm proud of our achievements, our heritige, our culture. Rightly or wrongly, I feel a part of that.
It's funny, I can spend time bemoaning the state of affaires in Britain with fellow brits, but find myself getting irrationally defensive and protective of my counrty when attacked by so called 'foreigners'. That's not to say, by any means, that I think us better than other nations or people,far from it, but I do feel a strong attachment to my homeland and no matter how long I spend away from it, my roots will always be firmly entrenched in British soil.
Cue National Anthem

I love my country, and I like a lot of things it does, but I'm not exactly proud of it.

Are you proud of the future?


Honibaz

jiminski wrote:I am not proud of being English in a way which pits me against any other culture, nation or religion. I am, and perhaps the word 'Pride' is what is causing the problem in interpretation, I am proud to associate myself with aspects of Englishness and Britishness. No not Fox hunting, the Queen or indeterminate cuisine; Principles of individual liberty, of fairness, inventiveness, and yeah maybe the ability to lose gracefully at any given sport, for a long time grace seemed much more important than victory... how bloody civilised!

Now come on, old chap, how many other nations do you think would claim those same principles for their own?

mandyb wrote:Being proud of one's country is tantamount to having pride in one's people. They are what make that rock what it is.
I am proud to be british - I'm proud of our achievements, our heritige, our culture. Rightly or wrongly, I feel a part of that.
It's funny, I can spend time bemoaning the state of affaires in Britain with fellow brits, but find myself getting irrationally defensive and protective of my counrty when attacked by so called 'foreigners'. That's not to say, by any means, that I think us better than other nations or people,far from it, but I do feel a strong attachment to my homeland and no matter how long I spend away from it, my roots will always be firmly entrenched in British soil.
Cue National Anthem

I agree with that to a degree. I dont feel embarrased or bad about things like the slave trade for example. Now I'm not saying it was a good thing and we should start it up again (although if you wanna, i'm game ), but it wasn't my fault, there was nothing I could do to prevent it, so I feel little shame. I try to gauge my 'national pride' on current affairs, and what goes on around me.

MeDeFe wrote:

jiminski wrote:I am not proud of being English in a way which pits me against any other culture, nation or religion. I am, and perhaps the word 'Pride' is what is causing the problem in interpretation, I am proud to associate myself with aspects of Englishness and Britishness. No not Fox hunting, the Queen or indeterminate cuisine; Principles of individual liberty, of fairness, inventiveness, and yeah maybe the ability to lose gracefully at any given sport, for a long time grace seemed much more important than victory... how bloody civilised!

Now come on, old chap, how many other nations do you think would claim those same principles for their own?

what has that got to do with the price of toast?

hehe what are you going for the MeD: Archetypal German smart-arse and toss-pot? You are doing well but we also have similar characteristics here in the UK ; )

i have pride in Man City, as we just beat Portsmouth 6-0.