God is Existentially Independent
Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:36 pmINTRODUCTION:
God has revealed many facts about Himself in various scriptures all over the world.
One of the things that He has revealed about Himself, in various languages, is that He is the one and only Existentially Independent Entity -- that He exists eternally, without ever having not existed, that He requires no creator, and has no cause preceding Him, logically or temporally. He has stated this in many different ways, in many different languages. He has also stated, in many different languages, that we are "in His image," that we possess some of the characteristics that He possesses, and that we derive all of our limited characteristics, from His infinite stock of perfect characteristics.
My statements here in this introduction are accurate paraphrases of His scriptural statements about Himself, and are therefore not up for debate.
The following 8 points, in burgundy, are up for debate in this thread, as they are based on science and logic, not necessarily on revealed scripture. There's a certain beauty in logical simplicity, also known as Occam's Razor, so please let's keep this as succinct as possible:
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1. Some entities observably depend on others for existence.
2. There is an observable chain of existential dependence among entities.
3. Some entities in this chain possess observable personal characteristics.
4. Following the chain of existential dependence back in time, logic inevitably leads to an existentially independent entity -- one that depends on no other for existence.
5. The atheist refers to this entity as "the universe," and lacks the ability to follow the chain any further back than that, either logically or temporally. There may be other terms the atheist makes up for this existentially independent entity, but just ike the term, "the universe," each one refers to an impersonal entity -- one possessing no personal characteristics.
6. The Theists refer to this entity as God, and He possesses personal characteristics.
7. The fact that God Himself possesses personal characteristics easily explains the existence of our own personal characteristics -- existentially dependent entities can only derive their various characteristics from entities possessing such characteristics themselves.
8. Impersonal entities cannot manifest personal characteristics or bestow them upon others. The absolute lack of personal characteristics in the atheist's notion of our ultimate origin fails to account for the undeniable existence of our own personal characteristics.
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CONTRIBUTIONS, REFUTATIONS, CLARIFICATIONS:
I'm hoping to have a productive discussion on these 8 points. With extremely rare exceptions, I have found the atheist to be basically incapable of discussing such subjects rationally, without descending into personal insults, sadly. However, hope springs eternal, and perhaps there are some Theists on this forum, or people on the fence, who can contribute something of value.
If so, I will edit this original post to include your ideas.
I'm also open to attempts at refutation of any of the above 8 points, but diverging from sound logic and valid scriptural references will be unproductive in this thread. Any successful refutations based on sound logic, valid scriptural references, or both will also result in changes to the original post, which should add an interesting twist to this conversation.
Respectful requests for clarification on any of the above points will also be honored.
CONCLUSION:
Aside from any contributions, refutations, or clarifications to the above 8 points, the conclusion is that all posters on this thread are in agreement, once and for all, with all of them, and that the atheistic opinion utterly fails to explain our ultimate origin, whereas the Theists offer a perfectly logical and complete explanation for our ultimate origin.
God has revealed many facts about Himself in various scriptures all over the world.
One of the things that He has revealed about Himself, in various languages, is that He is the one and only Existentially Independent Entity -- that He exists eternally, without ever having not existed, that He requires no creator, and has no cause preceding Him, logically or temporally. He has stated this in many different ways, in many different languages. He has also stated, in many different languages, that we are "in His image," that we possess some of the characteristics that He possesses, and that we derive all of our limited characteristics, from His infinite stock of perfect characteristics.
My statements here in this introduction are accurate paraphrases of His scriptural statements about Himself, and are therefore not up for debate.
The following 8 points, in burgundy, are up for debate in this thread, as they are based on science and logic, not necessarily on revealed scripture. There's a certain beauty in logical simplicity, also known as Occam's Razor, so please let's keep this as succinct as possible:
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1. Some entities observably depend on others for existence.
2. There is an observable chain of existential dependence among entities.
3. Some entities in this chain possess observable personal characteristics.
4. Following the chain of existential dependence back in time, logic inevitably leads to an existentially independent entity -- one that depends on no other for existence.
5. The atheist refers to this entity as "the universe," and lacks the ability to follow the chain any further back than that, either logically or temporally. There may be other terms the atheist makes up for this existentially independent entity, but just ike the term, "the universe," each one refers to an impersonal entity -- one possessing no personal characteristics.
6. The Theists refer to this entity as God, and He possesses personal characteristics.
7. The fact that God Himself possesses personal characteristics easily explains the existence of our own personal characteristics -- existentially dependent entities can only derive their various characteristics from entities possessing such characteristics themselves.
8. Impersonal entities cannot manifest personal characteristics or bestow them upon others. The absolute lack of personal characteristics in the atheist's notion of our ultimate origin fails to account for the undeniable existence of our own personal characteristics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONTRIBUTIONS, REFUTATIONS, CLARIFICATIONS:
I'm hoping to have a productive discussion on these 8 points. With extremely rare exceptions, I have found the atheist to be basically incapable of discussing such subjects rationally, without descending into personal insults, sadly. However, hope springs eternal, and perhaps there are some Theists on this forum, or people on the fence, who can contribute something of value.
If so, I will edit this original post to include your ideas.
I'm also open to attempts at refutation of any of the above 8 points, but diverging from sound logic and valid scriptural references will be unproductive in this thread. Any successful refutations based on sound logic, valid scriptural references, or both will also result in changes to the original post, which should add an interesting twist to this conversation.
Respectful requests for clarification on any of the above points will also be honored.
CONCLUSION:
Aside from any contributions, refutations, or clarifications to the above 8 points, the conclusion is that all posters on this thread are in agreement, once and for all, with all of them, and that the atheistic opinion utterly fails to explain our ultimate origin, whereas the Theists offer a perfectly logical and complete explanation for our ultimate origin.
Why did he not create a perfect race? Why did he allow bad? Can he create an object too heavy for himself to lift? etc. It is not simple, explaining a perfect being adds to the complexity of the situation.