Conquer Club

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., today insisted everything is smooth sailing with the House bill that would require every American to have health insurance or pay a fine; create a government run health plan to compete with private insurers to drive costs down; and impose an up to 5.4% new tax on top wage-earners.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... eform.html

Every American must purchase government approved health care or pay a fine? This is their idea of universal coverage?!

Will the government have access to our medical records?

Regardless, I think this is bull shit..because it amounts to a tax on a persons mere existence.

GabonX wrote:

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., today insisted everything is smooth sailing with the House bill that would require every American to have health insurance or pay a fine; create a government run health plan to compete with private insurers to drive costs down; and impose an up to 5.4% new tax on top wage-earners.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... eform.html

Every American must purchase government approved health care or pay a fine? This is their idea of universal coverage?!

Will the government have access to our medical records?

Regardless, I think this is bull shit..because it amounts to a tax on a persons mere existence.

I kinda of understand what you mean...that it's a tax for just being alive....I really do think they are going to far. what if I don't want insurance? What if I'm perfectly healthy and never get sick and if I ever need medial attention and don't have insurance, I'd like to just be left alone to die? Isn't that my right as a human being? Who are you to tell me I can't die? f*ck you I'll fucking kill you before I'll let you save my life...you save my life and I don't want you to...I'm gunna hunt you down and kill you. Now you have to ask yourself, was it a good idea to save my life, given that it meant giving up your own? (I own health insurance, and want to be saved...i'm just speaking theoretically....)

What if I want to go off of the map and live in the Appalachian trail? What if I'm living abroad for a few years?

Should the government be entitled to know where I live?

GabonX wrote:What if I want to go off of the map and live in the Appalachian trail? What if I'm living abroad for a few years?

Should the government be entitled to know where I live?

I want to move to the mountains and live by myself..i don't want to see anybody for years...i'll live by a creek, grow my own food, hunt my own animals...live off the land. I don't need health insurance..i have a brain!

bedub1 wrote:

GabonX wrote:

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., today insisted everything is smooth sailing with the House bill that would require every American to have health insurance or pay a fine; create a government run health plan to compete with private insurers to drive costs down; and impose an up to 5.4% new tax on top wage-earners.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... eform.html

Every American must purchase government approved health care or pay a fine? This is their idea of universal coverage?!

Will the government have access to our medical records?

Regardless, I think this is bull shit..because it amounts to a tax on a persons mere existence.

I kinda of understand what you mean...that it's a tax for just being alive....I really do think they are going to far. what if I don't want insurance? What if I'm perfectly healthy and never get sick and if I ever need medial attention and don't have insurance, I'd like to just be left alone to die? Isn't that my right as a human being? Who are you to tell me I can't die? f*ck you I'll fucking kill you before I'll let you save my life...you save my life and I don't want you to...I'm gunna hunt you down and kill you. Now you have to ask yourself, was it a good idea to save my life, given that it meant giving up your own? (I own health insurance, and want to be saved...i'm just speaking theoretically....)

Because if you don't have health insurance, and you end up going to the emergency room, guess who pays.

How about this as an idea...

The emergency room is only used for traumatic injury or unpredictable medical episodes like heart attacks or burst appendix. These things require immediate treatment and there is no time to check whether or not a person has health insurance.

If on the other hand a person shows up with an infection which has clearly been developing over a period of time, they don't get treatment as the condition is not a sudden emergency.

GabonX wrote:How about this as an idea...

The emergency room is only used for traumatic injury or unpredictable medical episodes like heart attacks or burst appendix. These things require immediate treatment and there is no time to check whether or not a person has health insurance.

If on the other hand a person shows up with an infection which has clearly been developing over a period of time, they don't get treatment as the condition is not a sudden emergency.

OK, even if that were how things worked, you still may end up in the emergency room if you're young and healthy. This is one of the reasons why healthcare costs are bankrupting the country. From what I understood watching the Senate healthcare committee on CSPAN, the fine is basically incentive to make it in your best interest to get healthcare (even though it already is, but people are idiots). This really wasn't a point of contention, at least while I was watching.

In any case, this bill isn't even a single bill yet, and it'll be completely different before they vote on it, so there's really no use arguing over these kinds of details until it gets to later stages.

No action is the appropriate action.

Forcing people to pay money for the heck of it is wrong.

If there is a "no insurance" fine the government is infringing on basic liberties and is in violation of my 10th Amendment rights.

InkL0sed wrote:Because if you don't have health insurance, and you end up going to the emergency room, guess who pays.

I do? At least I have every time I've been in that situation.

Man, you got ripped off Obama said he would pay for it

umm ok guys? we knew this is what they wanted along time ago and we still elected them maybe next election we will be smarter eh?

THORNHEART wrote:umm ok guys? we knew this is what they wanted along time ago and we still elected them maybe next election we will be smarter eh?

Don't get your hopes up.

InkL0sed wrote:Because if you don't have health insurance, and you end up going to the emergency room, guess who pays.

If you have health insurance paid for by the government, guess who pays?

bedub1 wrote:

GabonX wrote:What if I want to go off of the map and live in the Appalachian trail? What if I'm living abroad for a few years?

Should the government be entitled to know where I live?

I want to move to the mountains and live by myself..i don't want to see anybody for years...i'll live by a creek, grow my own food, hunt my own animals...live off the land. I don't need health insurance..i have a brain!

Except about the only way you can do that is if you are independently wealthy and able to buy that nice, productive land with wildlife still there OR you live adjacent to government lands, where those things are protected.

Not very "independent" now are we, truly!

thegreekdog wrote:

InkL0sed wrote:Because if you don't have health insurance, and you end up going to the emergency room, guess who pays.

If you have health insurance paid for by the government, guess who pays?

Right, but you don't have to go to the emergency room. We're talking about cost here. It'd be cheaper if everyone had government-run health-insurance.

And yes, the care would be just as good.

You don't know that it would be cheaper, and you don't know that the care would be just as good. If it is run like social security, medicare, etc. it's going to get bungled up just like these other programs.

We do know that even if these programs are successful (and past experience dictates that they won't be) it is an infringement on personal liberty and a power grab by the government.

If this would somehow give government officials access to our medical records, the program is actually quite dangerous.

Give me a break. I have plenty of relatives in Europe with first-hand experience, as well as my very own mother, who has first-hand experience with both systems. And you know what? She says it's better in Europe.

There are plenty of places in the world where people live under socialist ideologies. America was made great by pursuing the exact opposite course of action, that is to say that emphasis is centered on personal responsibility and potential.

The European (socialist) way of life is not currently under attack (unless you count Islam) while the fundamental liberties which have made America great are.

I would like to see our way of life preserved.

And I'm glad you're such a good son that you agree with your mother about everything.

Abortion, Iraq, Bush, Obama, gun control, faith..Do you guys agree on these too?

GabonX wrote:You don't know that it would be cheaper, and you don't know that the care would be just as good.

We do know that every other industrialized country has cheaper healthcare than here in the US. We know that those countries with socialized medicine provide it more cheaply, and that (on average) people are happier with their systems than those in the US. Why are you so convinced the US would differ?

GabonX wrote:If it is run like social security, medicare, etc. it's going to get bungled up just like these other programs.

Actually Medicare works pretty well. That's why insurance companies hate it. Administrators dislike the cuts, but they also dislike the cuts from HMOs.
Social security is entirely irrelevant. The structure, purpose, funding, etc have almost no connection to health care.

GabonX wrote:We do know that even if these programs are successful (and past experience dictates that they won't be) it is an infringement on personal liberty and a power grab by the government.

This is your opinion, and completely unsupported by facts. It is not something "we know" at all! It is strictly what you believe. That you fail to distinguish fact from your belief speaks volumes.

GabonX wrote:If this would somehow give government officials access to our medical records, the program is actually quite dangerous.

[/quote]
Newsflash! They already have them in almost all cases. This is a concern, but the complete refusal of many insurance companies to share cure rates, etc, is a big stopping block to finding the most effective cures and treatments. Information must be controlled, but your fear-mongering is getting idiotic.

GabonX wrote:And I'm glad you're such a good son that you agree with your mother about everything.

Abortion, Iraq, Bush, Obama, gun control, faith..Do you guys agree on these too?

No, we're right about those things, too.

I'm sorry, but I agree about all those things with a lot of people. Let's not make this personal.

GabonX wrote:There are plenty of places in the world where people live under socialist ideologies. America was made great by pursuing the exact opposite course of action, that is to say that emphasis is centered on personal responsibility and potential.

You are ignorant. It was not private companies, but public research that has brought about most of the great medical advances. Only we turn them over to private companies to make a profit.

GabonX wrote:The European (socialist) way of life is not currently under attack (unless you count Islam) while the fundamental liberties which have made America great are.

Socialism in health care does not mean we are heading down the road to communism or universal socialism. Give it a rest already! Health care does not operate well under a free market. Some things do, but not healthcare.

GabonX wrote:I would like to see our way of life preserved.

But right now, unless you happen to be very wealthy, a serious illness will wipe that away. You are young, can pretend you will be healthy forever. Most of us are not so deluded.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:You don't know that it would be cheaper, and you don't know that the care would be just as good.

We do know that every other industrialized country has cheaper healthcare than here in the US. We know that those countries with socialized medicine provide it more cheaply, and that (on average) people are happier with their systems than those in the US. Why are you so convinced the US would differ?

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:We do know that even if these programs are successful (and past experience dictates that they won't be) it is an infringement on personal liberty and a power grab by the government.

This is your opinion, and completely unsupported by facts. It is not something "we know" at all! It is strictly what you believe. That you fail to distinguish fact from your belief speaks volumes.

Putting your two statements together here speaks volumes. We don't know that "every other industrialized country has cheaper healthcare than here in the US." It wouldn't surprise me if you heard that on NPR, but THAT statement is completely unsupported by facts.

It's possible that what they label as health costs are lower, (and I'm not ready to concede that this is the case) but even so this is irrelevant as the tax premiums on everything else are so high. Whether they call it a health tax, or a food tax, it still infringes on my ability to live an unobstructed and free life.

The idea that someone is going to tax or fine me for breathing, and that is what this proposal does, cannot be allowed to go through and cannot be ignored. Such a program would violate my Tenth Ammendment rights as an American.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:If this would somehow give government officials access to our medical records, the program is actually quite dangerous.

Newsflash! They already have them in almost all cases. This is a concern, but the complete refusal of many insurance companies to share cure rates, etc, is a big stopping block to finding the most effective cures and treatments. Information must be controlled, but your fear-mongering is getting idiotic.

My "fear mongering is getting idiotic." Basically this amounts to telling me that my concerns as a citizen about things which are actually happening are irrelevant. The amount of bias and arrogance in this statement is astounding but it seems to be something of a default response you have when addressing ANYONE who has a different view than you. Health care, evolution, global warming, Palin, interpretation of the Bible etc. if we don't agree with YOUR views, our views are unfounded and ridiculous...

The government is not entitled to my health records, period. If they have them this is wrong. The notion that we should give them greater access to things which they should not have is the equivalent of pushing a knife in deeper and twisting it around after being stabbed in the gut.

InkL0sed wrote:

GabonX wrote:And I'm glad you're such a good son that you agree with your mother about everything.

Abortion, Iraq, Bush, Obama, gun control, faith..Do you guys agree on these too?

No, we're right about those things, too.

I'm sorry, but I agree about all those things with a lot of people. Let's not make this personal.

A lot of people, particularly younger people, agree with their parents on just about every social issue. I question whether these people have really thought about the issues or have been indoctrinated, much like people on the left claim children are indoctrinated to fundamental religion. Indoctrination of fundamental leftism exists as well.

My parents don't agree so I get to make up my own mind.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:There are plenty of places in the world where people live under socialist ideologies. America was made great by pursuing the exact opposite course of action, that is to say that emphasis is centered on personal responsibility and potential.

You are ignorant. It was not private companies, but public research that has brought about most of the great medical advances. Only we turn them over to private companies to make a profit.

You are arrogant. It seems like all you care about is manipulating things at the expense of others, and to hell with them if they don't like what you want.

These new claims you're making mean nothing without support, regardless of what you may have heard on NPR.

I'm sure that the government has invested in research, but to claim that private industries have not invested as well is ludicrous.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:The European (socialist) way of life is not currently under attack (unless you count Islam) while the fundamental liberties which have made America great are.

Socialism in health care does not mean we are heading down the road to communism or universal socialism. Give it a rest already! Health care does not operate well under a free market. Some things do, but not healthcare.

I didn't say "communism." Health care is not a right. For all that you scientists and leftists rave about the unquestionable truths of evolution, I find it astounding that they never question what will happen to human beings if there is no process of selection.

We are already among the most over medicated people on earth, and we are getting weaker because of it.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:I would like to see our way of life preserved.

But right now, unless you happen to be very wealthy, a serious illness will wipe that away. You are young, can pretend you will be healthy forever. Most of us are not so deluded.

I guess it's a good thing Obama is my President then. He will fix my illness