ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:45 pm

Woodruff wrote:
WILLIAMS5232 wrote:i sure hope Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is right woodruffster,

until then, i'm betting on things will be worse before they are good. we'll just have to wait and see.

and i'll say again, i think the bankruptcies that they are trying to claim that come from medical expenses, are really people overextending on houses and cars and i-phones and nice furniture only to be bombarded by an untimely illness. i doubt that someone debt free is bankrupting over a medical cost alone. or at least the numbers are far different than this most likely rigged study is trying to portray.


Rigged study? Good Lord man, they clearly say the numbers simply represent "was a factor", not that it was SOLELY the factor. I don't know how you could possibly conclude that it's a rigged study, to be honest.


did you read the article?
But a new study published in The American Journal of Medicine says the biggest reason for going into bankruptcy is medical debt.

Medical Debt Huge Bankruptcy Culprit

this is not portraying simply "a factor"

But The Washington Post says people in bankruptcy with insurance were nearly $18,000 in the red. And those without insurance had an average of almost $27,000 in medical debt.

this is not a reason to file bankruptcy in my opinion. unless of course you are so far under on other things.

let me reword my thoughts in my statement earlier.
"i do not feel sorry for people who file for bankruptcy when their other debt is more than their total medical cost. however, i do feel sorry for people that are debt free who file for bankruptcy."
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:10 pm

so....Obamacare.....prices were supposed to be dropping, right?

Why did healthcare have an even bigger increase in cost this year than before Obamacare was passed?
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:18 am

WILLIAMS5232 wrote: and i'll say again, i think the bankruptcies that they are trying to claim that come from medical expenses, are really people overextending on houses and cars and i-phones and nice furniture only to be bombarded by an untimely illness. i doubt that someone debt free is bankrupting over a medical cost alone. or at least the numbers are far different than this most likely rigged study is trying to portray.

This is utterly false. Teh problem is that much of the above debt is very much part of medical debt. Did it never occur to you that when people have a sick child, they will mortgage their house, may wind up having to leave work enough that they suddenly become "expendable" to their employer, etc... so what you call "superfulous" really isn't.

ALSO.... isn't it funny how our economy is so dependent upon growth, which means purchases.. but when people actually do make those purchases, they are somehow irresponsible?

Medical care is not a free market item. People don't really have choice because most people, even with the internet and so forth don't have the knowledge that comes with medical degrees. In fact, the internet probably makes getting real information harder in some cases.. far too many people just hear the surface and don't bother looking into the depth needed to really understand compex situations. Beyond that, when your child is ill or injured, you can't just "shop around". That is precisely why ALL hospitals have to take ALL patients without first demanding payment.

AND, its why even the most responsible of people can wind up with huge debt if a family member gets sick. Worse, even with insurance, once you hit the "lifetime limits" or wind up with even a day gap in insurance the companies can simply refuse to cover you-- and then you pretty much have to either watch your loved one stay ill or do whatever you can, including taking on "unreasonable debt" to try to get help. Ironically, once you have done that and declared bankruptcy... THEN suddenly you can get help because you have no assets.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:17 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:This is utterly false.

i disagree
PLAYER57832 wrote: Did it never occur to you that when people have a sick child, they will mortgage their house

yes, you would be silly not to.
PLAYER57832 wrote: isn't it funny how our economy is so dependent upon growth, which means purchases.. but when people actually do make those purchases, they are somehow irresponsible?

it's not "funny" it's sad. purchases are fine if you can afford them, but buying an xbox or a 70 dollar blender, or a new pair of shoes every 2 weeks on credit is unacceptable. paying cash for these things while in debt is not an argument.
PLAYER57832 wrote:even the most responsible of people can wind up with huge debt if a family member gets sick.

i agree, and i'm not talking about these people. i'm sure it's very few compared to that study.
PLAYER57832 wrote: Teh problem is that much of the above debt is very much part of medical debt

the problem is allowing folks to not have to take care of thierself until it's too late. this will only get more out of control the longer things go. and thinking there is a fairy tale solution to end all problems is silly thinking.
if you give everyone a false hope that they can do whatever they want and they'll be fine because society can take care of them when they hit bottom, it's not helping them.
i'd much rather help someone that doesn't' expect help than some one who feels it's a right.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:25 am

Phatscotty wrote:so....Obamacare.....prices were supposed to be dropping, right?

Why did healthcare have an even bigger increase in cost this year than before Obamacare was passed?

LONG term versus short term AND including the money our tax dollars go toward subsidizing people without insurance, actual health care costs, etc-- not just the premiums you pay today. Prices WILL drop.... they were never going to drop immediately.


Obamacare, for example, dictates that if a hospital or doctor screws up, the bills to correct the error are the hospital/doctor's responsibility, not taxpayer's responsibility. It allows a lot more people to get insurance now than have in the past... but that wont become fully realized unless and until the exchanges are put in force and people /small businesses can begin to truly by insurance on their own at rates somewhat akin to those large companies now pay. ETC.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:31 am

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:This is utterly false.

i disagree

Fine, show your work.. your evidence.
PLAYER57832 wrote: Did it never occur to you that when people have a sick child, they will mortgage their house

yes, you would be silly not to.[/quote]
and yet, you still think its perfectly OK to let those folks go bankrupt, rather than another type of fix.

You make statements, but ignore the real impact of those statements.
WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote: isn't it funny how our economy is so dependent upon growth, which means purchases.. but when people actually do make those purchases, they are somehow irresponsible?

it's not "funny" it's sad. purchases are fine if you can afford them, but buying an xbox or a 70 dollar blender, or a new pair of shoes every 2 weeks on credit is unacceptable. paying cash for these things while in debt is not an argument.

and yet, without those types of purchases, the 1% could not be gaining the huge increases in wealth they have experienced.. so there is no incentive to TRULY get people to stop, there is a lot of encouragement for folks to go out and just buy, buy, buy...
WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:even the most responsible of people can wind up with huge debt if a family member gets sick.

i agree, and i'm not talking about these people. i'm sure it's very few compared to that study
No, its not. I, several others did do the research.. and posted it in this very thread.

PLAYER57832 wrote: The problem is that much of the above debt is very much part of medical debt

the problem is allowing folks to not have to take care of thierself until it's too late. this will only get more out of control the longer things go. and thinking there is a fairy tale solution to end all problems is silly thinking.[/quote]
Uh.. how, exactly is one supposed to "take care of oneself" when there is no insurance, when you don't have the money to go to a doctor, until you finally have to go to the emergency room and then you do get care without payment.
WILLIAMS5232 wrote:if you give everyone a false hope that they can do whatever they want and they'll be fine because society can take care of them when they hit bottom, it's not helping them.
i'd much rather help someone that doesn't' expect help than some one who feels it's a right.

Except, providing health insurance for all is ABOUT responsibility. Requiring people to buy insurance and requiring insurance providers to actually cover people, instead of mostly covering healthy people and dropping anyone who gets really sick onto the taxpayer systems IS responsibility.

The false hope is this idea that allowing for profit entities to dictate care will somehow magically result in cheaper and better care for all.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Fine, show your work.. your evidence.

can we both agree that the system is being abused? if so, that's my evidence.
PLAYER57832 wrote:and yet, you still think its perfectly OK to let those folks go bankrupt, rather than another type of fix.

You make statements, but ignore the real impact of those statements.
.
no i don't. i know full well what i say and why. i'm against an enabling society. i see people and have family that has been given plenty of oppurtunity to try and right theirself. but since they don't earn their keep and have people keep helping them, they don't know how to help thierself. it's sickening how dependant we can let each other become. if i have a family member that seriously needs and deserves help, i'm all for helping in whatever way i can. but i'm totally against some jack-ass up in kansas that i don't know taking money from our broke ass govt because he wanted 22 inch rims on his hummer instead of putting that money up for an emergency. if you're worth a shit in life there will be people come forward and help you when you're down. you shouldn't lean on the govt so much. ( this is my opinion of course so no need to show my work here )
PLAYER57832 wrote:and yet, without those types of purchases, the 1% could not be gaining the huge increases in wealth they have experienced.. so there is no incentive to TRULY get people to stop, there is a lot of encouragement for folks to go out and just buy, buy, buy...

so why reward these people for making foolish purchases. and why blame the 1% you hate so much. quit buying their products if you hate them so much.
PLAYER57832 wrote:No, its not. I, several others did do the research.. and posted it in this very thread.

again, do you agree the system is being abused. that's my research. i don't put much thought in polls and studies posted on the internet. i could go to fox news and find you 10 that would disagree just like you could find me 10 more that support it. also, i'm not going to go back through 100's of pages to prove something that you and i will obviously never agree on.
PLAYER57832 wrote:Uh.. how, exactly is one supposed to "take care of oneself" when there is no insurance, when you don't have the money to go to a doctor, until you finally have to go to the emergency room and then you do get care without payment.

i don't know... i guess you could start by getting a job. living within your means and saving money. do i really have to explain this?
PLAYER57832 wrote:Except, providing health insurance for all is ABOUT responsibility. Requiring people to buy insurance and requiring insurance providers to actually cover people, instead of mostly covering healthy people and dropping anyone who gets really sick onto the taxpayer systems IS responsibility.

The false hope is this idea that allowing for profit entities to dictate care will somehow magically result in cheaper and better care for all.

i'd be all for helping folks if we have a surplus. but we don't. people need to make a few sacrifices and help the situation out. and handing healthcare out to everyone so they can abuse it every time you get a stuffy nose is not a responsible act. no matter what you say we both know it is going to get abused. if it's a life threatening ilness fine, let the guy in. but there has to be a way to manage the abuse, and this isn't it.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so....Obamacare.....prices were supposed to be dropping, right?

Why did healthcare have an even bigger increase in cost this year than before Obamacare was passed?

LONG term versus short term AND including the money our tax dollars go toward subsidizing people without insurance, actual health care costs, etc-- not just the premiums you pay today. Prices WILL drop.... they were never going to drop immediately.


Obamacare, for example, dictates that if a hospital or doctor screws up, the bills to correct the error are the hospital/doctor's responsibility, not taxpayer's responsibility. It allows a lot more people to get insurance now than have in the past... but that wont become fully realized unless and until the exchanges are put in force and people /small businesses can begin to truly by insurance on their own at rates somewhat akin to those large companies now pay. ETC.


Obama did say prices would drop in the short term and even immediately...when he was trying to get it passed.... I think Obama even tried to verify that prices have dropped, but immediately backed off it when the results came in

what is the track record for government projections on LONG term entitlement programs?

Why couldn't the examples you brought up, which I also happen to agree with, be passed individually? And don't even start saying it's based on the job creation (the 16,500 IRS agents that come along with..."allowing more people to get insurance")
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:42 pm

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Fine, show your work.. your evidence.

can we both agree that the system is being abused? if so, that's my evidence.


Any system will be abused. Are you ready to eliminate the military because corporations are abusing it for profits?

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Uh.. how, exactly is one supposed to "take care of oneself" when there is no insurance, when you don't have the money to go to a doctor, until you finally have to go to the emergency room and then you do get care without payment.


i don't know... i guess you could start by getting a job. living within your means and saving money. do i really have to explain this?


Yes, these jobs are overwhelmingly available, certainly. Just get a job, hippie!
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:20 am

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Fine, show your work.. your evidence.

can we both agree that the system is being abused? if so, that's my evidence.
As I thought, You don't have evidence, just opinion. That's a cop out. ANY system will be abused by some people. You claimed that bankruptcies are not really from medical expenses, though several studies (posted earlier in this thread, in fact) show you are wrong.

I asked you to provide your counter evidence. If you have it, provide it. Else you are talking garbage.
PLAYER57832 wrote:and yet, you still think its perfectly OK to let those folks go bankrupt, rather than another type of fix.

You make statements, but ignore the real impact of those statements.
.
no i don't. i know full well what i say and why. i'm against an enabling society. i see people and have family that has been given plenty of oppurtunity to try and right theirself. [/quote]
EVIDENCE, please... again.

Its easy to claim that folks are "given everything" when you don't bother to really look into why people get into trouble OR to the actual impact of cuts to help programs.

One example a big cause of homelessness, even TODAY is that Reagan (yep, him) "realeased" a lot of people from psychiatric institutions.. without making sure there were effective helps in place.

'Another--- the Republicans like to claim that the increase in food stamps, etc in the past few years is evidence of abuse, instead of evidence that people are hurting do to stupid mistakes made by the BUSH administration, mistakes Romney now wants to repeat in spades.

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:but since they don't earn their keep and have people keep helping them, they don't know how to help thierself. it's sickening how dependant we can let each other become. if i have a family member that seriously needs and deserves help, i'm all for helping in whatever way i can. but i'm totally against some jack-ass up in kansas that i don't know taking money from our broke ass govt because he wanted 22 inch rims on his hummer instead of putting that money up for an emergency.

Evidence, please... AGAIN, and not just an isolated idiot.
Here.. I will beat you to the punch. About 80% of kids in my school district, including my own up until last year, get either free or subsidized lunches. A few have stupid parents, sure. Many more are in families that suffered job losses, injury, divorce. Evne when it is idiot parents, cutting off food aid is not the answer. Nor, in many cases is taking the kids and throwing them into social services (though in some cases, absolutely).

So, I am one of those "users" and "abusers". And I honestly dare you to try and get into THAT debate with me. You are very quick to make judgements, but have not the experience or the willingness to even see if your beliefs are valid. That's more than digusting, its abuse of intelligence AND the system. Because you are willing to break it without bothering to find out if your ideas really have any bearing on true problems.

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:if you're worth a shit in life there will be people come forward and help you when you're down. you shouldn't lean on the govt so much. ( this is my opinion of course so no need to show my work here )
That's bull.
And no, its not just "your opinion", because you have based "your opinion" upon an utter lack of information.


i have to go to work.. finish later.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:50 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:As I thought, You don't have evidence, just opinion. That's a cop out. ANY system will be abused by some people. You claimed that bankruptcies are not really from medical expenses, though several studies (posted earlier in this thread, in fact) show you are wrong.

I asked you to provide your counter evidence. If you have it, provide it. Else you are talking garbage.


my basic argument here is these studies do not take into account all the abuse that happens. they are written to try and sway peoples thoughts one way or another. did you read the study? could you not tell the author was bias. you claim that my judgement is just based on my unintelligent thought. well whatever i guess. i see how the world works and don't need to do Google searches to try and rationalize my actions. if this isn't good enough, we're done here.

we cant have a world full of doctors, lawyers, ballerinas and astronauts. this job problem is a hoax. my company can't find workers. we have 8 "3 man" crews that total about 17. ( that means we are hiring 7 people at the moment ) this has been a constant problem for about a year now since my company laid off all illegal workers. this is just one department. we have nearly 400 employees. we could probably stand to hire about 60 more people on a "will train" basis. but most people have sociology degrees and are too good for the positions we have to offer.


PLAYER57832 wrote:One example a big cause of homelessness, even TODAY is that Reagan (yep, him) "realeased" a lot of people from psychiatric institutions.. without making sure there were effective helps in place.


so now all homeless people are physchotic? could you show your work here?

PLAYER57832 wrote:'Another--- the Republicans like to claim that the increase in food stamps, etc in the past few years is evidence of abuse, instead of evidence that people are hurting do to stupid mistakes made by the BUSH administration, mistakes Romney now wants to repeat in spades.


can you buy poptarts with foodstamps?
are poptarts necessary to life?
this is my evidence that foodstamps are abused. if you buy any luxury item on foodstamps, yoiu are stealing.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Evidence, please... AGAIN, and not just an isolated idiot.
Here.. I will beat you to the punch. About 80% of kids in my school district, including my own up until last year, get either free or subsidized lunches. A few have stupid parents, sure. Many more are in families that suffered job losses, injury, divorce. Evne when it is idiot parents, cutting off food aid is not the answer. Nor, in many cases is taking the kids and throwing them into social services (though in some cases, absolutely).

So, I am one of those "users" and "abusers". And I honestly dare you to try and get into THAT debate with me. You are very quick to make judgements, but have not the experience or the willingness to even see if your beliefs are valid. That's more than digusting, its abuse of intelligence AND the system. Because you are willing to break it without bothering to find out if your ideas really have any bearing on true problems.


how much is a school lunch these days?
when i was in school it was 85 cents. so lets say it's now at 2 bucks due to govt induced inflation.
2x5=10
it's a damn shame if you can't come up with 10 bucks a week to feed your children. why have them if you can 't take care of them. i realize there are "certain" circumstances that make me look like a complete jerk and asshole here. but for petes sake, how many people getting free lunches honestly can't afford it. can you get me some numbers and percentages there? i don't feel like it. but i'm sure that to my standards it's way over what is acceptable for me.

PLAYER57832 wrote:That's bull.
And no, its not just "your opinion", because you have based "your opinion" upon an utter lack of information.


and i think i pinched a nerve with you, which was not my intention, so don't take any of this personal please,
if you feel you are doing the best you can with what you got, then there is no need to let someone on the internet rattle and bother you. i'm not here for that. i'm just passionate about my opinions however unintelligent you deem them to be. and i'll probably go to the grave without them changing much. unless maybe one day i am in dire need for these same govt assist. programs that i disgust which mind you that i am not against giving to those truly in need it's just i think there is way more abuse than what anyone wants to admit then i may change my stance a bit on it. but until then, i can't stand all this waste as the country goes down the tube. ( i know my grammer is bad here and i don't capitalize and use punctuation. and my spelling is off too. if you need help deciphering any of it pleaes pm me and when i get time i will try and get to it. ) it's just i'm getting tired is all.

back to insurance...
you say that by raising the cost of the healthy to lower the cost of the sick will eventually lower the cost of all healthcare later on down the road? is this some magic trick?

really, do costs ever really go down. and if so do you have a projection for when my insurance will go down? i love saving money. i mean when will my sacrafice for paying more for insurance to lower the costs of smokers and sugar/fat overeaters and alcoholics and drug users pay off for me? 4 more years? if obama is re-elected? or will it take longer than that. maybe 60 years? well hopefully not that long, cause by then i'll be 93. even by eating healthy i don't think i can guarantee myself a spot to the 90 club.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:01 pm

Woodruff wrote:Any system will be abused. Are you ready to eliminate the military because corporations are abusing it for profits?

that would be silly. how could we have any chance to repel an enemy invasion without our military. let's instead try and work on eliminating the abuse here.
Woodruff wrote:Yes, these jobs are overwhelmingly available, certainly. Just get a job, hippie!

again with the cant' find a job hoax.
can we just say it's "can't find a job we want" life's not all about roses and watermelons. sometimes you have to sacrafice. get outside and sweat a bit. i do, and live a comfortable life.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby jj3044 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:32 pm

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:back to insurance...
you say that by raising the cost of the healthy to lower the cost of the sick will eventually lower the cost of all healthcare later on down the road? is this some magic trick?

really, do costs ever really go down. and if so do you have a projection for when my insurance will go down? i love saving money. i mean when will my sacrafice for paying more for insurance to lower the costs of smokers and sugar/fat overeaters and alcoholics and drug users pay off for me? 4 more years? if obama is re-elected? or will it take longer than that. maybe 60 years? well hopefully not that long, cause by then i'll be 93. even by eating healthy i don't think i can guarantee myself a spot to the 90 club.

We in the healthcare industry are trying to slow the rate healthcare increases each year, and the hope is to eventually stop the rate of increase. You are probably right though, it most likely will never be below what we are paying today.

However, the healthcare bill does do a few things to try to get people to take care of themselves. Foe example, under the bill employers can now charge up to 30% of the premium MORE if you don't engage in a healthy lifestyle/wellness program, such as seeing your physician for a well visit or joining a smoking cessation program, or showing that you have good blood pressure. Many companies I work with are going in this direction, and we have seen good outcomes with the companies that have been doing this for years. However, it isn't overnight that you see these results. Typically it takes 3-5 years to see a return on your investment. BUT, it is the right way to go.

Essentially, if you are healthier and take care of yourself, you pay less. Smart, right?
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:53 am

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Any system will be abused. Are you ready to eliminate the military because corporations are abusing it for profits?


that would be silly. how could we have any chance to repel an enemy invasion without our military. let's instead try and work on eliminating the abuse here.


Precisely my point. I now refer you back to your use of it...

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Yes, these jobs are overwhelmingly available, certainly. Just get a job, hippie!


again with the cant' find a job hoax.
can we just say it's "can't find a job we want" life's not all about roses and watermelons. sometimes you have to sacrafice. get outside and sweat a bit. i do, and live a comfortable life.


My son got out of the Navy in April. He has been looking very hard for a job since then in a state (Nebraska) with relatively very good employment rates. He is looking outside of his career field for anything, to include janitorial work and things along those lines. He is looking throughout the state for work, not just within our city. His security clearance is as high as mine was, which is pretty freaking high. He is a veteran (so that's an advantage) and he has the qualities of military service that employers are looking for. He IS avoiding fast food type establishments, because they frankly cannot support him if he lives on his own (he's staying with us until he finds employment, an arrangment which he is hating).

The point is...I'm seeing the reality of it. He just wants a job that can support his meager requirements, and he can't find one.
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Re: ObamaCare: Reactions

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:10 pm

jj3044 wrote:However, the healthcare bill does do a few things to try to get people to take care of themselves.

well, hopefully this goes in a positive direction.
Woodruff wrote:Precisely my point. I now refer you back to your use of it...

my use is that the study in question would have us believe that medical costs are the "big" cause for bankruptcy when it says it'self that the average medical cost that causes these bankruptcy is only 27k owed to the hospital. i'd be curious to know what percentage of total debt this is, and if it's fair to file bankruptcy because you owe a hospital about half of the average yearly household salary in the united states. someone has to pick up these costs down the line. abusing bankruptcy is the same as theft.

Woodruff wrote:I'm seeing the reality of it. He just wants a job that can support his meager requirements, and he can't find one.


i guess it all depends on what you classify as meager. i left home at 18 and found a way to make it. of course it required me moving about 400 miles away from mommy and daddy to do it, but i'm fine now.
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