ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:52 pm

I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:50 pm

Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:57 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.


I'm a man of my word, so I'll say that I'm ok with this.

Keep going TGD.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:58 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.


I'm a man of my word, so I'll say that I'm ok with this.

Keep going TGD.


You know, if you keep patting yourself on the back you might pull a muscle.

Have a happy November 22nd!
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:05 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.


I'm a man of my word, so I'll say that I'm ok with this.

Keep going TGD.


You know, if you keep patting yourself on the back you might pull a muscle.

Have a happy November 22nd!


I've never found patting my back particularly strenuous. Is US healthcare so bad that patting your own back is risky?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:52 pm

Washington (CNN) -- The Supreme Court has ordered a federal appeals court to take another look at whether a key requirement in the health care reform law violates religious freedoms.

A pending lawsuit from Liberty University had claimed, among other things, that the law would lead to taxpayer dollars funding abortions and contraception, a claim the Obama administration rejects. The justices issued their order Monday.

The high court in June had upheld the overall law championed by President Obama, but left room for continued legal challenges to certain aspects of the law's application.



The Virginia-based school bills itself as the largest Christian evangelical college in the world.
Documentary: Health care overhaul needed
Obamacare: what's next?

A three-judge panel of the 4th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in 2011 unanimously concluded the university's lawsuit should be blocked on jurisdictional grounds. There is no indication when the appeals court will revisit the issue in the wake of the high court's order.

After the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act's funding mechanism -- the so-called individual mandate requiring nearly all Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a financial penalty -- it tossed out all other pending appeals.

Liberty University then refiled its lawsuit, saying its objections to the law should be reconsidered in light of the court's 5-4 ruling affirming the overall law.

Read more: Wyoming voters send anti-Obamacare message

The school believes Americans should not be required to purchase health insurance -- and employers forced to provide it -- if there are legitimate moral and religious objections to some provisions.

It is one of several dozen pending lawsuits around the country filed to challenge the law's application since the June decision. The Richmond-based appeals court taking on the Liberty University case could ask both the federal government and the school to submit updated legal arguments. The Obama administration did not object to the university asking for another chance to press its claims.


Forbes warns OBamacare opponents not to get their hopes up

The Supreme Court today ordered the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals to take a second look at Liberty University‘s challenge of the health reform act to resolve questions not answered in the high court’s June decision upholding Obamacare.

The order gives some hope to foes of the healthcare law, but not much. As Forbes blogger Rick Ungar notes today, the Fourth Circuit is one country’s more liberal federal courts and even the U.S. Solicitor General declined to intervene, figuring Liberty will go down to defeat once again.

“It’s not much of a sign of anything,” said Andy Pincus, an appellate specialist with Mayer Brown in Washington. While the Supreme Court technically granted certiorari or judicial review of the case, it was what is known as a GVR in the trade, as in “grant, vacate and remand.” The Court commonly does this when there are appeals it has previously frozen that don’t address the specific questions it resolved in a decision.

In this case, Liberty University, a fundamentalist Christian institution, opposed the employer insurance mandates and the requirement that insurance policies include contraception. The Fourth Circuit never got to those questions when it rejected Liberty University’s challenge in a decision in September 2011, instead finding that the lawsuit was blocked by the Anti-Injunction Act prohibiting suits seeking to prevent a tax from being collected. But in a lengthy dissent, Judge Andre M. Davis argued the case should have been heard, and dismissed, because Obamacare passes muster under the Constitution’s Commerce Clause.

Assuming the same three judges hear Liberty University’s appeal this time, it is unlikely they will rule in the school’s favor. Davis specifically rejected the employer mandate along conventional constitutional grounds, finding that even employers who operate within a single state can be subjected to federal regulations, much as civil-rights laws apply even to local diners and motels.

“It’s interesting that Liberty wants to do it, because they’re starting with a panel where they know one of the judges is against them,” Pincus said.

If Liberty loses again, it can always appeal to the Supreme Court. But the high court may well take a pass the second time. Chief Justice Roberts assembled a majority in favor of the idea that Obamacare violated the Commerce Clause, but held the law was valid under Congress’s taxing powers. Conservatives hope he’ll use the Liberty case to gut the law by finding the employer mandate invalid, but it’s equally likely the court will wait for later challenges based on how the law is implemented. Religious objections to the contraception requirement also might find better challenges after the law has been in effect for a while.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfishe ... care-case/
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby spurgistan on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:33 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.


The way I've traditionally read NS is him saying malpractice is THE reason for rising health care costs, or at least one of the biggest. The fact that malpractice is at best a minor cost consideration in the second-most expensive county in the country is a reasonable case study arguing against that. More case studies done reasonably objectively (it's hard to argue against the methodology in the McAllen case could have counties in which malpractice is a stronger determinant of health care costs.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:55 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.

Actually its most definitely not the one county in Texas, its just that this was an example where nationwide trends were delved into more fully to see WHY the trend is real.

As an added note, competition is particularly bad for orthopedists and back specialists. The reasons are multiple, but essentially it gets down to the fact that it is human nature to want to make a profit in any business and the pressure is pretty great then to find "cures". HOWEVER, be sure I am NOT talking about intentional abuse of any sort.. that is entirely different and much more readily correctable. Rather it is that professionals talk to each other and basically tend to convince each other that this new techique is good... etc, etc.

This happens in other professions, but it is most detrimental in medicine, yet another reason why medicine is not and should not be considered a basic market product.

Just think about it from the outset.. the MOSt effective doctors are those who cure and then never see their patients again, until injury or old age set in. This is exactly counter to basic product sales where creating a good product generates more interest and more sales.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:57 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Washington (CNN) -- The Supreme Court has ordered a federal appeals court to take another look at whether a key requirement in the health care reform law violates religious freedoms.

A pending lawsuit from Liberty University had claimed, among other things, that the law would lead to taxpayer dollars funding abortions and contraception, a claim the Obama administration rejects. The justices issued their order Monday.

The high court in June had upheld the overall law championed by President Obama, but left room for continued legal challenges to certain aspects of the law's application.



The Virginia-based school bills itself as the largest Christian evangelical college in the world.
Documentary: Health care overhaul needed
Obamacare: what's next?

A three-judge panel of the 4th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in 2011 unanimously concluded the university's lawsuit should be blocked on jurisdictional grounds. There is no indication when the appeals court will revisit the issue in the wake of the high court's order.

After the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act's funding mechanism -- the so-called individual mandate requiring nearly all Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a financial penalty -- it tossed out all other pending appeals.

Liberty University then refiled its lawsuit, saying its objections to the law should be reconsidered in light of the court's 5-4 ruling affirming the overall law.

Read more: Wyoming voters send anti-Obamacare message

The school believes Americans should not be required to purchase health insurance -- and employers forced to provide it -- if there are legitimate moral and religious objections to some provisions.

It is one of several dozen pending lawsuits around the country filed to challenge the law's application since the June decision. The Richmond-based appeals court taking on the Liberty University case could ask both the federal government and the school to submit updated legal arguments. The Obama administration did not object to the university asking for another chance to press its claims.


Funny how telling ME what to do with MY body suddenly became a religious issue for YOU.

The real attack on freedom here is the idea that women don't have the right to make medical reproductive decisions because some religious individuals decide they dislike the decisions these women make for their own bodies.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:14 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Washington (CNN) -- The Supreme Court has ordered a federal appeals court to take another look at whether a key requirement in the health care reform law violates religious freedoms.

A pending lawsuit from Liberty University had claimed, among other things, that the law would lead to taxpayer dollars funding abortions and contraception, a claim the Obama administration rejects. The justices issued their order Monday.

The high court in June had upheld the overall law championed by President Obama, but left room for continued legal challenges to certain aspects of the law's application.



The Virginia-based school bills itself as the largest Christian evangelical college in the world.
Documentary: Health care overhaul needed
Obamacare: what's next?

A three-judge panel of the 4th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in 2011 unanimously concluded the university's lawsuit should be blocked on jurisdictional grounds. There is no indication when the appeals court will revisit the issue in the wake of the high court's order.

After the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act's funding mechanism -- the so-called individual mandate requiring nearly all Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a financial penalty -- it tossed out all other pending appeals.

Liberty University then refiled its lawsuit, saying its objections to the law should be reconsidered in light of the court's 5-4 ruling affirming the overall law.

Read more: Wyoming voters send anti-Obamacare message

The school believes Americans should not be required to purchase health insurance -- and employers forced to provide it -- if there are legitimate moral and religious objections to some provisions.

It is one of several dozen pending lawsuits around the country filed to challenge the law's application since the June decision. The Richmond-based appeals court taking on the Liberty University case could ask both the federal government and the school to submit updated legal arguments. The Obama administration did not object to the university asking for another chance to press its claims.


Funny how telling ME what to do with MY body suddenly became a religious issue for YOU.

The real attack on freedom here is the idea that women don't have the right to make medical reproductive decisions because some religious individuals decide they dislike the decisions these women make for their own bodies.


Willfully killing others has never had anything to do with one's own body, and really, it doesn't have anything to do with religion either.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:15 pm

Night Strike wrote:Willfully killing others has never had anything to do with one's own body, and really, it doesn't have anything to do with religion either.


This is true. Abortion touches on a much larger issue than women's rights, even if that's something to be considered in whether abortion should be legal.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:26 pm

spurgistan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.


The way I've traditionally read NS is him saying malpractice is THE reason for rising health care costs, or at least one of the biggest. The fact that malpractice is at best a minor cost consideration in the second-most expensive county in the country is a reasonable case study arguing against that. More case studies done reasonably objectively (it's hard to argue against the methodology in the McAllen case could have counties in which malpractice is a stronger determinant of health care costs.


Most states don't have caps on malpractice awards, which is why I made the point in the first place. I love that article; I've read it numerous times and it's very good. However, it cannot be held up to the rest of the country as the best example of rising costs of healthcare. That being said, I do not agree with NS that malpractice awards are the biggest reason that healthcare costs are high. I'm also a biased attorney.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:32 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.

Actually its most definitely not the one county in Texas, its just that this was an example where nationwide trends were delved into more fully to see WHY the trend is real.

As an added note, competition is particularly bad for orthopedists and back specialists. The reasons are multiple, but essentially it gets down to the fact that it is human nature to want to make a profit in any business and the pressure is pretty great then to find "cures". HOWEVER, be sure I am NOT talking about intentional abuse of any sort.. that is entirely different and much more readily correctable. Rather it is that professionals talk to each other and basically tend to convince each other that this new techique is good... etc, etc.

This happens in other professions, but it is most detrimental in medicine, yet another reason why medicine is not and should not be considered a basic market product.

Just think about it from the outset.. the MOSt effective doctors are those who cure and then never see their patients again, until injury or old age set in. This is exactly counter to basic product sales where creating a good product generates more interest and more sales.


Doctors are supposedly not permitted to do these types of things (i.e. prolong treatment and injury). And for the most part I do not think they do; however, with the amount of tests they are required to do, it can become rather ridiculous.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Night Strike on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:37 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I'm going to go with whatever TGD and Scotty believe from now on in this thread. It's a great way to observe collaborative delusion.


Night Strike: A reason why health care is so costly is because of malpractice suits.
Symmetry: No, please see this article on healthcare in one county of Texas.
TGD: It's one county in Texas. It's not representative of the entire United States.
Symmetry: Clever ad hominem [pats self on back for another job well done].

The last two pages of this thread is a great way to observe the Symmetry style of argument.

Actually its most definitely not the one county in Texas, its just that this was an example where nationwide trends were delved into more fully to see WHY the trend is real.

As an added note, competition is particularly bad for orthopedists and back specialists. The reasons are multiple, but essentially it gets down to the fact that it is human nature to want to make a profit in any business and the pressure is pretty great then to find "cures". HOWEVER, be sure I am NOT talking about intentional abuse of any sort.. that is entirely different and much more readily correctable. Rather it is that professionals talk to each other and basically tend to convince each other that this new techique is good... etc, etc.

This happens in other professions, but it is most detrimental in medicine, yet another reason why medicine is not and should not be considered a basic market product.

Just think about it from the outset.. the MOSt effective doctors are those who cure and then never see their patients again, until injury or old age set in. This is exactly counter to basic product sales where creating a good product generates more interest and more sales.


Doctors are supposedly not permitted to do these types of things (i.e. prolong treatment and injury). And for the most part I do not think they do; however, with the amount of tests they are required to do, it can become rather ridiculous.


What will happen when they have to do all these tests AND each test takes an extra couple of weeks due to a full wait list of people getting "free" health care?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:41 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Washington (CNN) -- The Supreme Court has ordered a federal appeals court to take another look at whether a key requirement in the health care reform law violates religious freedoms.

A pending lawsuit from Liberty University had claimed, among other things, that the law would lead to taxpayer dollars funding abortions and contraception, a claim the Obama administration rejects. The justices issued their order Monday.

The high court in June had upheld the overall law championed by President Obama, but left room for continued legal challenges to certain aspects of the law's application.



The Virginia-based school bills itself as the largest Christian evangelical college in the world.
Documentary: Health care overhaul needed
Obamacare: what's next?

A three-judge panel of the 4th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in 2011 unanimously concluded the university's lawsuit should be blocked on jurisdictional grounds. There is no indication when the appeals court will revisit the issue in the wake of the high court's order.

After the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act's funding mechanism -- the so-called individual mandate requiring nearly all Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a financial penalty -- it tossed out all other pending appeals.

Liberty University then refiled its lawsuit, saying its objections to the law should be reconsidered in light of the court's 5-4 ruling affirming the overall law.

Read more: Wyoming voters send anti-Obamacare message

The school believes Americans should not be required to purchase health insurance -- and employers forced to provide it -- if there are legitimate moral and religious objections to some provisions.

It is one of several dozen pending lawsuits around the country filed to challenge the law's application since the June decision. The Richmond-based appeals court taking on the Liberty University case could ask both the federal government and the school to submit updated legal arguments. The Obama administration did not object to the university asking for another chance to press its claims.


Funny how telling ME what to do with MY body suddenly became a religious issue for YOU.

The real attack on freedom here is the idea that women don't have the right to make medical reproductive decisions because some religious individuals decide they dislike the decisions these women make for their own bodies.


pretty sure you have completely forgotten to factor in the entire premise......FORCING someone else to pay for your contraception or abortion, to be specific.

It's about how tax dollars are spent, it has nothing to do with your privacy. You can still do all those things, but you cannot force someone else to make it easier for you to do those things, especially when they don't believe in those things.

That would be like me trying to force you to chip in 27$ a month to make sure guns are accessible and cheap for all people. We don't need your 27$ in order to have a second amendment, and you don't need my 27$ in order to have control over your own body.
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