Conquer Club

Now that some of the dust has settled, we can get a look at the results.

12/30/09
U.S. gov't provides 3.8 bln dollars of new capital to GM
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre5bt06o-us-gmac-aid/

I'd say it succeed in doing what it intended, although I feel those intentions were somewhat misguided.

It was a good idea, but they never gave it enough money to be completely effective. Which became obvious when they ran out of money in less than a week. I would have liked to have seen them put way more money into it, but its the government. I've learned to not expect too much from them.

lets see...

sold cars, created state tax revenue, created/preserved jobs, took non-efficient engines off the road

Yes, that is enough for me to identify as success

jsholty4690 wrote:It was a good idea, but they never gave it enough money to be completely effective. Which became obvious when they ran out of money in less than a week. I would have liked to have seen them put way more money into it, but its the government. I've learned to not expect too much from them.

So, a bigger giveaway would be a bigger success? Even if we have to borrow, at interest, from CHINA< the money to give away? Just asking

jsholty4690 wrote:It was a good idea, but they never gave it enough money to be completely effective. Which became obvious when they ran out of money in less than a week. I would have liked to have seen them put way more money into it, but its the government. I've learned to not expect too much from them.

And how many of those applications in the first week were fraudulent or incorrectly filled out?

istanbul39 wrote:lets see...

sold cars, created state tax revenue, created/preserved jobs, took non-efficient engines off the road

Yes, that is enough for me to identify as success

For 3 weeks????? and how does stealing their own future sales to make the month of August look good A success? Every other aspect of the economy has fallen, auto sales were the exception last month. Now that the program is over, and they had a good August, we still have the same crappy economy. It accomplished nothing real or lasting, only artificial sales for an extremely short term boost. for 3 billion dollars, borrowed at interest? There is spending money, and then theres throwing money away

Yes the economy is not fixed yet. We agree on that. Can't expect the President to fix the economy in less than 7 months. The last administration had 96 months to get us in this situation.

istanbul39 wrote:Yes the economy is not fixed yet. We agree on that. Can't expect the President to fix the economy in less than 7 months. The last administration had 96 months to get us in this situation.

well, if your gonna point fingers then discussion is pointless. I dont care who the last president was, or when the democratic congress took over under that president. I care about now. Bottom line, Car sales will return to miserable now, the program didnt fix anything and hurt dealers future sales. as a matter of fact I will bet you a small fortune that the dealerships have their WORST MONTH IN HISTORY for september. now NOBODY IS GONNA BUY A CAR. Why is this a good thing?

I loved it...finally a break for people who have jobs and can afford to buy a new car. At first I thought it was another "spread the wealth" scheme where people would get 4500 to turn in there car. But the catch was, THEY HAD TO BUY A NEW ONE!!!! And QUALIFY for credit to do so!! HHAHHAHAHHA. Finally, I get a government handout.

Although I would have rather they just quit taking money and giving it away. That isn't the point of government. And judging its success on how quickly it ran out of money, is kind of dumb. I guess that makes me a successful gambler.

jbrettlip wrote:I loved it...finally a break for people who have jobs and can afford to buy a new car. At first I thought it was another "spread the wealth" scheme where people would get 4500 to turn in there car. But the catch was, THEY HAD TO BUY A NEW ONE!!!! And QUALIFY for credit to do so!! HHAHHAHAHHA. Finally, I get a government handout.

Although I would have rather they just quit taking money and giving it away. That isn't the point of government. And judging its success on how quickly it ran out of money, is kind of dumb. I guess that makes me a successful gambler.

It sounds like you are saying if I may attempt an analogy "Oh shit I'm broke, I have all these bills. If I dont come up with 1,200 dollars to get through this month, I'm out of business. Oh wait, I know, I'll use all my future earnings to get through this month, and then "hopefully" in 3 weeks the economy will magically turn around and business will pick back up. Except you already rushed all your future sales from the next 6 months, to have this 1 good month in August. Let me ask you, how are you in better shape when the next month comes with horrible sales that you already plundered, and now you have to come up with and EXTRA 1,800 to pay the loand back (with interest)????? you have to think these things through!!!!!!!! god damnit!!!!!! This gov't deal has BURIED the auto-sector!

jbrettlip wrote:I guess that makes me a successful gambler.

The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!

9:1
Your a little outnumbered so far Scotty

istanbul39 wrote:9:1
Your a little outnumbered so far Scotty

time will tell, as always. I got by head bitten off in 2001 for buying a bunch of gold, I was also shouted down when I made a case to protect against a falling dollar, warnings about a real estate crash in 2005, and will probably catch a lot of flak, even with that track record, will catch more flack for predicting your local mini-mall will completely close down. I have actually kept a blog for 9 years now, documenting everything I can from all points of view. You should see some of the responses "real estate will go up forever you idiot!" "real estate never goes down you moron! what planet you live on cuz it aint earth!" hmm time told, didn;t it. I don't care about being outnumbered, which isn't hard when you, like any true bigot, categorize me with rush limbaugh. Which is just completely erroneous, so I must be very aware of how wrong the people are I am dealing with. Hope you understand. oh and it may be possible, since we are in the 9am-5pm bracket in USA, there are a bunch of lefties sitting at home on their computers. Ta!

Phatscotty wrote:well, if your gonna point fingers then discussion is pointless. I dont care who the last president was, or when the democratic congress took over under that president. I care about now. Bottom line, Car sales will return to miserable now, the program didnt fix anything and hurt dealers future sales. as a matter of fact I will bet you a small fortune that the dealerships have their WORST MONTH IN HISTORY for september. now NOBODY IS GONNA BUY A CAR. Why is this a good thing?

That says more then enough. If you don't understand how we got into this mess, or how its going to get sorted out, or care about what the hell is happening, I don't expect you to understand that 7 months isn't enough time to sort out years of economic rape.

Also, the programme hasn't hurt dealers, it has helped them. They have a large increase in revenues for August, and more people are buying the cars then before (the government subsidy means more families will buy cars then if there was no subsidy), so they now have the money to keep their showroom open and not have to close up and sack people. Add into that that more people now have fuel efficient cars so they will also be saving money and have more disposable income. A win-win situation in my eyes.

Titanic wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:well, if your gonna point fingers then discussion is pointless. I dont care who the last president was, or when the democratic congress took over under that president. I care about now. Bottom line, Car sales will return to miserable now, the program didnt fix anything and hurt dealers future sales. as a matter of fact I will bet you a small fortune that the dealerships have their WORST MONTH IN HISTORY for september. now NOBODY IS GONNA BUY A CAR. Why is this a good thing?

That says more then enough. If you don't understand how we got into this mess, or how its going to get sorted out, or care about what the hell is happening, I don't expect you to understand that 7 months isn't enough time to sort out years of economic rape.

Also, the programme hasn't hurt dealers, it has helped them. They have a large increase in revenues for August, and more people are buying the cars then before (the government subsidy means more families will buy cars then if there was no subsidy), so they now have the money to keep their showroom open and not have to close up and sack people. Add into that that more people now have fuel efficient cars so they will also be saving money and have more disposable income. A win-win situation in my eyes.

Whoa whoa whoa, I completely agree! There is no way the economy can rebound after 7 months, which is the ammo I am using for my argument that cash for clunkers didnt accomplish anything! The economy needs to be good for there to be car sales. you take what you want from my statements, not what is there. Titanic, show rooms are not open! EVeryone just got a new car! the program is over. a Dealer would be stupid to invest in their showroom since demand for new cars without the gov't program is the exact same as the demand there was before the program existed, which is emregency levels. All this program did was shock the heart into beating for one more day. Holding that up as a success is a stretch at best. The help the dealers recieved is a 1 time shot of artificial demand. The hurt comes next month. dont worry, this poll will still be up, and we can watch the results together! then we will see which of us is able to think through a scenario. Ta!

Phatscotty wrote: For 3 weeks????? and how does stealing their own future sales to make the month of August look good A success? Every other aspect of the economy has fallen, auto sales were the exception last month. Now that the program is over, and they had a good August, we still have the same crappy economy. It accomplished nothing real or lasting, only artificial sales for an extremely short term boost. for 3 billion dollars, borrowed at interest? There is spending money, and then theres throwing money away

The Minnesota Auto Dealer Association disagrees with you Scotty, and Republican Governor Tim Paulenty. In the last weeks, the Minnesota governor openly criticized Obama's plan. Within hours, the Dealer accociation of the state publicly condemned Paulenty for his criticism and greatly favored the President's plan.

istanbul39 wrote:

Phatscotty wrote: For 3 weeks????? and how does stealing their own future sales to make the month of August look good A success? Every other aspect of the economy has fallen, auto sales were the exception last month. Now that the program is over, and they had a good August, we still have the same crappy economy. It accomplished nothing real or lasting, only artificial sales for an extremely short term boost. for 3 billion dollars, borrowed at interest? There is spending money, and then theres throwing money away

The Minnesota Auto Dealer Association disagrees with you Scotty, and Republican Governor Tim Paulenty. In the last weeks, the Minnesota governor openly criticized Obama's plan. Within hours, the Dealer accociation of the state publicly condemned Paulenty for his criticism and greatly favored the President's plan.

yeah, well I will guarantee you that statement was made before they were informed that the cash the dealerships need to make ends meet is going to be late. that means employess will be paid late if it all. electricity bills will be late. I am here in MN, I hear the interviews of the dealers talking about not being able to pay their employess. and another thing, any chance the "dealer association" has a political agenda??????? cmon man, I dont even trust what pawlenty says. however i will stick to my guns on this one as time unfolds

Are you also aware that several countries around the world have already done this scheme? Germany and France did it with a huge success, and in the UK it was also done and greatly boosted car sales. The car scrappage scheme is actually being called one of the main reasons that Germany and France are now officially out of the recession, and it has enormously helped the dealers in the UK.

Btw, Scotty you didn answer my other point. Higher fuel efficient cars means that more people have a greater amount of disposable income. Theres a clear positive message from this scheme, and one which will definitely help towards ending this recession.

Do dealerships have to pay the taxes on the cars sold at the time the cars are sold? Or do they pay their taxes on the Ides of April like everyone else?

How much is the average cost of taxes on new vehicles sold? Could this just be all the money they should have been saving to pay off their taxes?

And how much of this is actually legitimate? If the dealerships sent in applications that were incomplete, invalid, or purely fraudulent, then they should have paid more attention. If they're just trying to make a rabble and not tell the truth, then congratulations neo-cons, you're still just as manipulative and full of it as always.

How many of those dealerships have gone out of business as a direct result of Cash-for-Clunkers? How many of those out of business dealerships were filing fraudulent claims?

pimpdave wrote:Do dealerships have to pay the taxes on the cars sold at the time the cars are sold? Or do they pay their taxes on the Ides of April like everyone else?

How much is the average cost of taxes on new vehicles sold? Could this just be all the money they should have been saving to pay off their taxes?

And how much of this is actually legitimate? If the dealerships sent in applications that were incomplete, invalid, or purely fraudulent, then they should have paid more attention. If they're just trying to make a rabble and not tell the truth, then congratulations neo-cons, you're still just as manipulative and full of it as always.

How many of those dealerships have gone out of business as a direct result of Cash-for-Clunkers? How many of those out of business dealerships were filing fraudulent claims?

um, dave, the program has been over for all but 8 hours now. be realistic will ya? no, nobody has gone bakrupt cuz of cash for clunkers in the first 8 hours.........jesus sweet christ kid and whatever tax revenue income you are pointing at, i have already pointed out is a ONE TIME SHOT. If they screwed up there paperwork, then its there fault obviosuly. dont even know why youd bring that up, goes without saying. The main point is dealerships work on guidelines and expect payments to be recieved ON TIME. and if you are making the argument that its great the gov't gives money away in a program, and that same money comes back in the form of a tax revenue, then you need to need shot in the head. ta!

Finally a government program where I got some money. So it was a success.
I bought a new car, where I would have bought a used car without the program, so it was a success.
I helped the dealership, helped honda the manufacturer, helped lots of americans that built and assembled the thing. So it was a success.
My car now gets 25mpg instead of 18mpg, so it was a success.
My old crappy car won't harm the environment anymore, so it was a success.
The used car market will suffer, since there are fewer used cars, so it was a failure.
They destroyed my car that worked, and had to make a new one, so evironmentally, it was a failure.
The auto dealership had a nice August, but will have a shitty semptember...so it was a temporary success and long term failure.
For one in my life, the government took money from me, and gave money to me, instead of taking my money and giving it to somebody else. So for me, it was a huge success.

So you're telling me that no one has gone out of business as a result.

Fascinating.

pimpdave wrote:So you're telling me that no one has gone out of business as a result.

Fascinating.

huh? gone out of business as a direct result of the program?

I just don't understand why they didn't take it a step further....bedub claimed to have had a car that got 18 mpg. That car is being destroyed. Why not give it to a poor person whose car only gets 10 mpg? Then you could take the 10 mpg car and ship it to mexico, since their cars aren't as environmentally friendly. The whole world could be better.

Oh yeah, and we can get US taxpayers to foot the bill for all of this.