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The Championships - Doubles [Winners: Swifte & cooldeals]

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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby sempaispellcheck on Wed May 14, 2014 3:49 pm

dkmaster wrote:Actually we are using wins going second in this 1v1 championship

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=198986

were there are 31 games pr round right now so it wasnt something I just invented myself :)

I didn't think you had made it up, don't worry.
Good luck to chap with that one. I'm not going to be using that in any tournament I run, that's for sure.

We are looking into a couple of issues concerning forfeited games and such.
The final tiebreaker in all cases from here on out will be the initial seeding that determined the groups for Round 1A.
This seeding can be found here.

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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby -Maximus- on Wed May 14, 2014 5:36 pm

Which means JS & I had better win more games in the next rounds.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby agentcom on Fri May 16, 2014 11:44 am

sempaispellcheck wrote:
dkmaster wrote:Actually we are using wins going second in this 1v1 championship

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=198986

were there are 31 games pr round right now so it wasnt something I just invented myself :)

I didn't think you had made it up, don't worry.
Good luck to chap with that one. I'm not going to be using that in any tournament I run, that's for sure.

Haha. Don't blame you for that.

These tourneys may be moving slowly, but given that it's the first time this has been attempted, I'd say you and your team have done a good job in the two tourneys I'm in.

We are looking into a couple of issues concerning forfeited games and such.
The final tiebreaker in all cases from here on out will be the initial seeding that determined the groups for Round 1A.
This seeding can be found here.

sempai


Could you post the official tiebreaker rules in the OP including a link to that seeding? I know I'm gonna have a hard time finding it again once we add a couple more pages of convo onto the back of this.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby dkmaster on Sun May 18, 2014 7:47 am

To avoid any discrimination I think it will be most fair to use the same tiebreaker rule throughout the whole tournament.

This round hasnt been determined yet and changes are made. So no problem in using

#The final tiebreaker in all cases from here on out will be the initial seeding that determined the groups for Round 1A.
This seeding can be found here.

sempai#
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Mon May 19, 2014 11:43 am

sempaispellcheck wrote:The 48 best teams will be the top 48 out of all 64 teams, irrespective of groups.
Scores will carry over from round 1A to round 1B, but not from round 1B to round 2A.

I think this rule was not followed, please check that.
From what I see in the Leaderboard, Scores from round 1B are carried into round 2A, instead of being nullified.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby sempaispellcheck on Mon May 19, 2014 12:11 pm

josko.ri wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:The 48 best teams will be the top 48 out of all 64 teams, irrespective of groups.
Scores will carry over from round 1A to round 1B, but not from round 1B to round 2A.

I think this rule was not followed, please check that.
From what I see in the Leaderboard, Scores from round 1B are carried into round 2A, instead of being nullified.

I needed the scores on the scoreboard to rank teams and create groups.
They have been wiped out now.

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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby agentcom on Mon May 19, 2014 8:21 pm

Are we still playing those same maps? I'm not seeing much variety.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Tue May 20, 2014 4:10 am

sempaispellcheck wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:The 48 best teams will be the top 48 out of all 64 teams, irrespective of groups.
Scores will carry over from round 1A to round 1B, but not from round 1B to round 2A.

I think this rule was not followed, please check that.
From what I see in the Leaderboard, Scores from round 1B are carried into round 2A, instead of being nullified.

I needed the scores on the scoreboard to rank teams and create groups.
They have been wiped out now.

sempai

This is not true, at least from my understanding.

There are columns "Record" and "Score".
"Record" is cumulative tournament score, and is used for seeding of every round.
"Score" is number of wins in the ongoing round, and is used to determine standings in any particular round.

So, "Record" should carry on from round 1B to round 2A and onwards (it will determine seeding afterwards), but "Score" should be nullified.

In your case, both "Record" and "Score" are carried on from round 1B to round 2A, leader team has "Record" 12/14 and "Score" 12, judging by the tournament standings: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... ent_id=507

Look at 1v1 tournament as a proper example: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... ent_id=312
The leader has "Record" 29/44, but has "Score" 12, because all Scores have been nullified at the beginning of every round.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby Graceless_ on Tue May 20, 2014 7:33 am

For anyone who cares about fog courtesy...Koganosi & JBlombier "do not believe" in giving people a chance to snap. Just a head up for you more honest folk out there.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby JBlombier on Tue May 20, 2014 7:53 am

It's more my partner's opinion actually, but now that you seem to want a witch-hunt for something extremely unimportant, I don't feel any need to apologize.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby Koganosi on Tue May 20, 2014 8:41 am

Graceless_ wrote:For anyone who cares about fog courtesy...Koganosi & JBlombier "do not believe" in giving people a chance to snap. Just a head up for you more honest folk out there.


He is right, feel free to take your turn whenever you want!

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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby agentcom on Tue May 20, 2014 8:46 am

josko.ri wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:The 48 best teams will be the top 48 out of all 64 teams, irrespective of groups.
Scores will carry over from round 1A to round 1B, but not from round 1B to round 2A.

I think this rule was not followed, please check that.
From what I see in the Leaderboard, Scores from round 1B are carried into round 2A, instead of being nullified.


I don't remember that quote. It was my understanding when I read through the rules at the beginning of the tourney and about halfway through round 1B that scores wouldn't be reset. You're comparing this to the 1v1 tournament where the scores ARE reset. Except that the 1v1 tourney said from the start that the scores would be reset. In this case, no such indication was made. If you look at the OP and at the autotournament page, there was never any indication that scores here would be reset. Whereas, the 1v1 AT page said from the start that scores would be reset.

(Full disclosure: I don't want the scores to be reset because my team is doing well. However, I came to the conclusion that they wouldn't be when things weren't looking nearly as promising for my team. The reason I remember is because my partner and I were having a PM discussion about the tourney. Nonetheless, I'm not in favor of changing rules during the tournament when it would have a big effect on the outcome, regardless of whether the change hurts me or not.)

JBlombier wrote:It's more my partner's opinion actually, but now that you seem to want a witch-hunt for something extremely unimportant, I don't feel any need to apologize.


It's hardly a witch hunt to call out a single team for doing something that they actually did, and people have different views on how important it is. You took your turn in 20 minutes or so and hid part of the map and a potential bonus from us. I'd venture to say that most people in this tournament would say that's bad form. Fortunately, we'd already taken a snap. So, I don't think either of us was looking for an apology, especially since it's so obvious that you aren't planning on changing.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby agentcom on Tue May 20, 2014 8:54 am

Hey sempai, a couple of other things (hope I'm not overloading you right now) :D

First, thanks for increasing the number of maps for Round 3. I hope that this will continue to increase throughout the tournament.

Second, is there a way to turn on the "tournament round starting" PMs? I didn't get a PM about the round starting, and didn't go first in any of my games, so I didn't even notice that it had started. Luckily my partner was able to snag the snaps, but it would be nice to have gotten the PM if he wasn't online.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Tue May 20, 2014 9:51 am

agentcom wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:The 48 best teams will be the top 48 out of all 64 teams, irrespective of groups.
Scores will carry over from round 1A to round 1B, but not from round 1B to round 2A.

I think this rule was not followed, please check that.
From what I see in the Leaderboard, Scores from round 1B are carried into round 2A, instead of being nullified.


I don't remember that quote.

You can find it here, as reply to question from 2 posts above:
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=200466&start=90#p4439417

agentcom wrote:You're comparing this to the 1v1 tournament where the scores ARE reset. Except that the 1v1 tourney said from the start that the scores would be reset. In this case, no such indication was made. If you look at the OP and at the autotournament page, there was never any indication that scores here would be reset. Whereas, the 1v1 AT page said from the start that scores would be reset.

I am comparing two tournaments which are similar type.
The fact is that rules in OP of this tournament are not clearly defined because of this:
Round 4 - 16 start, 8 move on
Teams are paired, seeded by tourney score. Each pair plays Best of 15 in 2 waves

Yet, in tournament page, (here: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... ent_id=507) it is written that scores do not reset throughout the whole tournament. If that is true, it would mean that in round 16 (and the same applies for Round 8,4,2) players would not start with 0-0 and play best-of-15 but would start with their previous tournament score (because it nowhere at any round indicates that scores reset), in which case that cannot be called best-of-15. And there is discrepancy between OP and and the tournament page, which was reason why Rodion asked what is true, and he got confirmation from sempai that true is that scores reset among new rounds.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby shoop76 on Tue May 20, 2014 12:20 pm

Josko doesn't your referenced quote clearly say that scores are not carried over from round 1b to round 2a. Or is the discussion about scores resetting for the later rounds?
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Tue May 20, 2014 8:29 pm

shoop76 wrote:Josko doesn't your referenced quote clearly say that scores are not carried over from round 1b to round 2a. Or is the discussion about scores resetting for the later rounds?

I think it is all foxed now. Yesterday when i wrote my post, leaders had 12 score and today they have 0 score so i guess problem is fixed and made according to the stated rules.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby agentcom on Wed May 21, 2014 10:36 pm

josko.ri wrote:
shoop76 wrote:Josko doesn't your referenced quote clearly say that scores are not carried over from round 1b to round 2a. Or is the discussion about scores resetting for the later rounds?

I think it is all foxed now. Yesterday when i wrote my post, leaders had 12 score and today they have 0 score so i guess problem is fixed and made according to the stated rules.


Well that sucks. I thought maybe because of the fewer number of games in this tournament that scores would not reset during the Round Robin phase. Then in the bracket phase scores reset every round. I thought that was a cool tournament set up.

BTW, I see that you're at the very bottom of your group. I feel like that's influencing your opinion. Interesting that you didn't note that in any of your posts ...

josko.ri wrote:
agentcom wrote:You're comparing this to the 1v1 tournament where the scores ARE reset. Except that the 1v1 tourney said from the start that the scores would be reset. In this case, no such indication was made. If you look at the OP and at the autotournament page, there was never any indication that scores here would be reset. Whereas, the 1v1 AT page said from the start that scores would be reset.

I am comparing two tournaments which are similar type.
The fact is that rules in OP of this tournament are not clearly defined because of this:
Round 4 - 16 start, 8 move on
Teams are paired, seeded by tourney score. Each pair plays Best of 15 in 2 waves

Yet, in tournament page, (here: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... ent_id=507) it is written that scores do not reset throughout the whole tournament. If that is true, it would mean that in round 16 (and the same applies for Round 8,4,2) players would not start with 0-0 and play best-of-15 but would start with their previous tournament score (because it nowhere at any round indicates that scores reset), in which case that cannot be called best-of-15. And there is discrepancy between OP and and the tournament page, which was reason why Rodion asked what is true, and he got confirmation from sempai that true is that scores reset among new rounds.


But during the bracket phase, teams do get a point reset after being seeded by score. That makes sense to me.

I was under the impression that there were two distinct "portions" of this tournament. A multiple-round, round robin portion that used tournament results to create fair round robin groups. These round robin rounds created a qualifier for the bracket portion of the tournament, which was composed of "best of" series. During the bracket rounds, of course your score is going to reset. The tournament page wasn't in disagreement with that. The old tournament page said that score resets wouldn't happen until the bracket round.* I'm not even sure how one that is looking at the AT page (rather than the thread) would possibly come to the conclusion that you came to. So I guess I'm not sure why you're linking to the tournament page here. Even before it was changed, your strongest argument comes from the thread.

Anyway, I thought that Dubs Championship format, which apparently existed only in my head and the old tournament page (and wasn't ruled out by the OP), has been changed (or "corrected", if you prefer) based on a comment from the middle of page 7. That's too bad because I thought it was a really cool format.

*Edit: to be fair to you, the AT page might not have explicitly said "scores reset" for the bracket round. That's a little odd, but the "best of" format means that scores have to reset. I guess your argument is that "scores reset" was unintentionally left off of ALL the rounds. My argument is that we should stick with what was written, and "best of" clearly indicates a score reset (after seeding). There's no such reason to assume that the round robin rounds would reset. Furthermore, there was no good reason to do a score reset during the round robin phase and a good reason not to.

Of course, if the page did explicitly say that scores reset during the bracket rounds, then I think your argument gets pretty tenuous. I mean, why would they put it on some rounds and not others if it wasn't intentionally designed that way.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Thu May 22, 2014 4:41 am

agentcom wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
shoop76 wrote:Josko doesn't your referenced quote clearly say that scores are not carried over from round 1b to round 2a. Or is the discussion about scores resetting for the later rounds?

I think it is all foxed now. Yesterday when i wrote my post, leaders had 12 score and today they have 0 score so i guess problem is fixed and made according to the stated rules.


Well that sucks. I thought maybe because of the fewer number of games in this tournament that scores would not reset during the Round Robin phase. Then in the bracket phase scores reset every round. I thought that was a cool tournament set up.

BTW, I see that you're at the very bottom of your group. I feel like that's influencing your opinion. Interesting that you didn't note that in any of your posts ...


If you really want me to note my own placement of the issue, I must say that on the time when the question was asked and answered on page 7, my team had record 5/7, while only after the answer to the question was determined we achieved 1/7 result. Is this so important in the matter? If so, then note that we had 5/7 on the time of asking yet we did not complain about the answer although at that time it meant the answer would influence us negatively. You can check dates of ending all 14 games, and date of asking question to confirm that I am telling truth here.

josko.ri wrote:
agentcom wrote:You're comparing this to the 1v1 tournament where the scores ARE reset. Except that the 1v1 tourney said from the start that the scores would be reset. In this case, no such indication was made. If you look at the OP and at the autotournament page, there was never any indication that scores here would be reset. Whereas, the 1v1 AT page said from the start that scores would be reset.

I am comparing two tournaments which are similar type.
The fact is that rules in OP of this tournament are not clearly defined because of this:
Round 4 - 16 start, 8 move on
Teams are paired, seeded by tourney score. Each pair plays Best of 15 in 2 waves

Yet, in tournament page, (here: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... ent_id=507) it is written that scores do not reset throughout the whole tournament. If that is true, it would mean that in round 16 (and the same applies for Round 8,4,2) players would not start with 0-0 and play best-of-15 but would start with their previous tournament score (because it nowhere at any round indicates that scores reset), in which case that cannot be called best-of-15. And there is discrepancy between OP and and the tournament page, which was reason why Rodion asked what is true, and he got confirmation from sempai that true is that scores reset among new rounds.

But during the bracket phase, teams do get a point reset after being seeded by score. That makes sense to me.


This is true now (because the tournament page was changed), but was not true on the time when my quoted post was written, before the change was undertaken. On that time, teams did not get a point reset according to the tournament page yet it was clearly stated on page 7 that they would get point reset, whereas in OP it was not stated neither that they will neither that they won't get point reset.

agentcom wrote:I was under the impression that there were two distinct "portions" of this tournament. A multiple-round, round robin portion that used tournament results to create fair round robin groups. These round robin rounds created a qualifier for the bracket portion of the tournament, which was composed of "best of" series. During the bracket rounds, of course your score is going to reset. The tournament page wasn't in disagreement with that.

That was your impression. However, my impression was that the same structure of tournament should be used for this one like in 1v1 tournament, because they belong to the same franchise of tournaments. You see, we both have impressions, and that is why it was needed clarification to see which impression is correct, and we got clarification on page 7.

agentcom wrote:The old tournament page said that score resets wouldn't happen until the bracket round.* I'm not even sure how one that is looking at the AT page (rather than the thread) would possibly come to the conclusion that you came to. So I guess I'm not sure why you're linking to the tournament page here. Even before it was changed, your strongest argument comes from the thread.

This is untrue argument because the old tournament page said that score resets would NEVER happen, including BOTH bracket rounds and elimination rounds. Now, "Score Resets" is written in rounds 2a/3a/16/8/4/2, while before noone round had it written. Therefore, judging by that, one could conclude that scores never reset which was contradictory with OP statement that R16 and onwards have best-of-X rounds.

agentcom wrote:Anyway, I thought that Dubs Championship format, which apparently existed only in my head and the old tournament page (and wasn't ruled out by the OP), has been changed (or "corrected", if you prefer) based on a comment from the middle of page 7. That's too bad because I thought it was a really cool format.

I honestly also think it is cool format, and I was voicing for that (cumulative scores format) to be used in 1v1 tournament as well. However, I put consistency of franchise tournaments ahead of that opinion. I woiuld consider unfair if in two tournament of the same franchise, in one my great results from previous rounds were nullified (that happened in 1v1 tournament) while in the other where I do bad they were carried on. I feel more fair if both are treated equal.

agentcom wrote:*Edit: to be fair to you, the AT page might not have explicitly said "scores reset" for the bracket round. That's a little odd, but the "best of" format means that scores have to reset. I guess your argument is that "scores reset" was unintentionally left off of ALL the rounds. My argument is that we should stick with what was written, and "best of" clearly indicates a score reset (after seeding). There's no such reason to assume that the round robin rounds would reset. Furthermore, there was no good reason to do a score reset during the round robin phase and a good reason not to.

Yes, the tournament page did not explicitly said "Scores reset" but neither explicitly said "Best of". It was written like this:
Round of 16 Part 1/2: 16 Start, Seeded by Score, 8 Games, 16 Move On, Games: 4 Players, Doubles, 41 Maps More
Round of 16 Part 2/2: 16 Start, Seeded by Score, 7 Games, 8 Move On, Games: 4 Players, Doubles, 41 Maps More

In this description, NOTHING indicates that scores should be reset, yet OP said "best-of-15" which indicates that scores should be reset. That can lead to conclusion that Tournament page was mistakenly made wrong. Reading this set up, it may be concluded that teams carries all their scores from previous rounds, and then new 15 games are cumulatively added to their total score. If it was mistakenly made wrong for R16/8/4/2, maybe the same mistake was done for bracket rounds? That is why Rodion ASKED (not pretended to give correct answer like you are doing but just asked for clarification) and got clear answer, not even from sempai directly, but obviously from bigWham because sempai had stated that he will come with answers after consultations with bigWham.

agentcom wrote:Of course, if the page did explicitly say that scores reset during the bracket rounds, then I think your argument gets pretty tenuous. I mean, why would they put it on some rounds and not others if it wasn't intentionally designed that way.

Maybe by mistake, or by not thinking ahead of that detail. That is why clarification was needed and later on given in page 7.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby agentcom on Thu May 22, 2014 4:41 pm

josko.ri wrote:
If you really want me to note my own placement of the issue, I must say that on the time when the question was asked and answered on page 7, my team had record 5/7, while only after the answer to the question was determined we achieved 1/7 result. Is this so important in the matter? If so, then note that we had 5/7 on the time of asking yet we did not complain about the answer although at that time it meant the answer would influence us negatively. You can check dates of ending all 14 games, and date of asking question to confirm that I am telling truth here.

OK, that's fine. Sounds like you're in the opposite position as I am in. I see why you didn't explain it earlier. You can see how it looked a little fishy though before knowing that.

josko.ri wrote:
agentcom wrote:You're comparing this to the 1v1 tournament where the scores ARE reset. Except that the 1v1 tourney said from the start that the scores would be reset. In this case, no such indication was made. If you look at the OP and at the autotournament page, there was never any indication that scores here would be reset. Whereas, the 1v1 AT page said from the start that scores would be reset.

I am comparing two tournaments which are similar type.
The fact is that rules in OP of this tournament are not clearly defined because of this:
Round 4 - 16 start, 8 move on
Teams are paired, seeded by tourney score. Each pair plays Best of 15 in 2 waves

Yet, in tournament page, (here: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?m ... ent_id=507) it is written that scores do not reset throughout the whole tournament. If that is true, it would mean that in round 16 (and the same applies for Round 8,4,2) players would not start with 0-0 and play best-of-15 but would start with their previous tournament score (because it nowhere at any round indicates that scores reset), in which case that cannot be called best-of-15. And there is discrepancy between OP and and the tournament page, which was reason why Rodion asked what is true, and he got confirmation from sempai that true is that scores reset among new rounds.

But during the bracket phase, teams do get a point reset after being seeded by score. That makes sense to me.


This is true now (because the tournament page was changed), but was not true on the time when my quoted post was written, before the change was undertaken. On that time, teams did not get a point reset according to the tournament page yet it was clearly stated on page 7 that they would get point reset, whereas in OP it was not stated neither that they will neither that they won't get point reset.

agentcom wrote:I was under the impression that there were two distinct "portions" of this tournament. A multiple-round, round robin portion that used tournament results to create fair round robin groups. These round robin rounds created a qualifier for the bracket portion of the tournament, which was composed of "best of" series. During the bracket rounds, of course your score is going to reset. The tournament page wasn't in disagreement with that.

That was your impression. However, my impression was that the same structure of tournament should be used for this one like in 1v1 tournament, because they belong to the same franchise of tournaments. You see, we both have impressions, and that is why it was needed clarification to see which impression is correct, and we got clarification on page 7.

Yeah, well only those of us who follow the forum actually got that clarification (no PM, no update to the AT page). I think that I follow the forum pretty well, and even I missed it until you quoted it. I don't think it's important that "they're part of the same franchise." The goal of each should be to make the best settings for everything. For example, this tournament has different sitting rules and different settings than the 1v1 tournament. Even the tournament format is a little different in the 1v1 tournament. I don't think that you can look to the 1v1 tournament as a basis of one tournament setting and then ignore all the other differences. In other words, I just because the 1v1 tournament has this particular setting (score resets each round) that doesn't form a basis for a requirement for this tournament. So for me, the issue still turns on two things: what was posted and what makes the best tournament.

On the what was posted issue: In all other ATs, silence on the topic means no score reset. For me, I think that a "best of" round is the same thing as and redundant to saying score reset. You can't have a best of round without a score reset. The counterargument is that the rule was updated in the forum. I'm giving more weight to the AT page and the OP than the post on page 7, which wasn't seen by everyone and people wouldn't even know to look there for a rule. So, OP is silent and AT page implied no point reset in the round robin portion, IMO.

But that's not really what's important to the TOs. They want to run the best tournament possible. While it's important to make the rules clear and accessible, you also don't want a nonsensical result to emerge from an oversight, omission or whatever. Now, I don't think either of our two alternatives could be called nonsensical, but I do think that there's enough disagreement over the interpretations to give some weight to the best format.

As to that, for the reasons posted previously, I like the points carrying forward through the rounds. I'm impressed that the TOs took the time to think about how each individual tournament should be run, rather than simply throwing the same settings out again and again. I still like the format of the tournament in my "impression." BTW, another reason for score resets after each round in the 1v1 tournament was due to the higher rate of deadbeating in a tournament like that. That and all the other things that I mentioned, still make me think that carrying the scores forward was the better format.

agentcom wrote:The old tournament page said that score resets wouldn't happen until the bracket round.* I'm not even sure how one that is looking at the AT page (rather than the thread) would possibly come to the conclusion that you came to. So I guess I'm not sure why you're linking to the tournament page here. Even before it was changed, your strongest argument comes from the thread.

This is untrue argument because the old tournament page said that score resets would NEVER happen, including BOTH bracket rounds and elimination rounds. Now, "Score Resets" is written in rounds 2a/3a/16/8/4/2, while before noone round had it written. Therefore, judging by that, one could conclude that scores never reset which was contradictory with OP statement that R16 and onwards have best-of-X rounds.

See above, see my previous posts, and see the end of the post you are quoting. I think I've addressed this as thoroughly as I can

agentcom wrote:Anyway, I thought that Dubs Championship format, which apparently existed only in my head and the old tournament page (and wasn't ruled out by the OP), has been changed (or "corrected", if you prefer) based on a comment from the middle of page 7. That's too bad because I thought it was a really cool format.

I honestly also think it is cool format, and I was voicing for that (cumulative scores format) to be used in 1v1 tournament as well. However, I put consistency of franchise tournaments ahead of that opinion. I woiuld consider unfair if in two tournament of the same franchise, in one my great results from previous rounds were nullified (that happened in 1v1 tournament) while in the other where I do bad they were carried on. I feel more fair if both are treated equal.

Haha, yeah that would suck. LOL. I'm not sure that it could be considered "unfair," but I would definitely be somewhere between laughing and crying out of frustration if that happened to me. I think I'm kind of in favor of the use of cumulative scores in general, so I was excited when I thought they were used here through the round robin portion. I would've been in favor of them in the 1v1 tourney too (as long as such was posted from the beginning). But I also see the reasons not to, which I think are more applicable to the 1v1 tourney than here.


agentcom wrote:*Edit: to be fair to you, the AT page might not have explicitly said "scores reset" for the bracket round. That's a little odd, but the "best of" format means that scores have to reset. I guess your argument is that "scores reset" was unintentionally left off of ALL the rounds. My argument is that we should stick with what was written, and "best of" clearly indicates a score reset (after seeding). There's no such reason to assume that the round robin rounds would reset. Furthermore, there was no good reason to do a score reset during the round robin phase and a good reason not to.

Yes, the tournament page did not explicitly said "Scores reset" but neither explicitly said "Best of". It was written like this:
Round of 16 Part 1/2: 16 Start, Seeded by Score, 8 Games, 16 Move On, Games: 4 Players, Doubles, 41 Maps More
Round of 16 Part 2/2: 16 Start, Seeded by Score, 7 Games, 8 Move On, Games: 4 Players, Doubles, 41 Maps More

In this description, NOTHING indicates that scores should be reset, yet OP said "best-of-15" which indicates that scores should be reset. That can lead to conclusion that Tournament page was mistakenly made wrong. Reading this set up, it may be concluded that teams carries all their scores from previous rounds, and then new 15 games are cumulatively added to their total score. If it was mistakenly made wrong for R16/8/4/2, maybe the same mistake was done for bracket rounds? That is why Rodion ASKED (not pretended to give correct answer like you are doing but just asked for clarification) and got clear answer, not even from sempai directly, but obviously from bigWham because sempai had stated that he will come with answers after consultations with bigWham.

agentcom wrote:Of course, if the page did explicitly say that scores reset during the bracket rounds, then I think your argument gets pretty tenuous. I mean, why would they put it on some rounds and not others if it wasn't intentionally designed that way.

Maybe by mistake, or by not thinking ahead of that detail. That is why clarification was needed and later on given in page 7.


OK, thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm getting my info from two sources here. I figured that the "best of" that appears in the OP overrides the fact that the AT didn't say "scores reset." I don't think that the OP's silence on the issue does anything to change that the round robin portion did not say "scores reset." So I was wrong to say the AT page said scores would reset, but I still think the combination of OP and AT page made my interpretation a valid one.

Nevertheless, I am not "pretending to give the correct answer." I simply understood it a certain way, I don't think that I made any mistake in reaching that conclusion, and I like that format better. I'm hoping that format will be considered for this tournament or future Dubs Championships. You are right, though, that sempai probably got that answer from BW. This is BW's brain child after all. But maybe he didn't or maybe BW's answer was incomplete or made offhand or in haste. I don't think it hurts to push for what I think is a better format. Granted, my advocacy is probably more persistent because I have a stake in the matter. As is yours, but that doesn't entirely undermine our viewpoints.

That's probably about all I have to say on the matter. If you reply, please know that I will read it, but unless there's something aimed specifically at me, I probably won't respond in depth, if at all. I think I've pretty much laid out all my thoughts on this. It was a nice little though :D
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby Graceless_ on Sat May 24, 2014 1:23 pm

I don't understand why it's so difficult to send out a mass pm the day before saying "games will be going out at ___ time tomorrow" so people can be on to get their snaps. It will be hard to take the results of these tournaments seriously when there is such an easy way to abuse the snapshot system.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby Graceless_ on Sat May 24, 2014 1:23 pm

Graceless_ wrote:I don't understand why it's so difficult to send out a mass pm the day before saying "games will be going out at 'x':00 tomorrow" so people can be on to get their snaps. It will be hard to take the results of these tournaments seriously when there is such an easy way to abuse the snapshot system.
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:38 am

We have 6 groups of 8 teams and 32 teams advancing.
I can see 2 scenarios how that can be done, and in OP I didn't find clarification which one is correct:

1. The best 5 from each group advance, together with 2 the best 6th placed teams (30+2).

2. The best 32 teams from all groups together, regardless of their placement within the group (theoretically, this can mean that the whole group can advance, if for example everyone within the group makes score of 7/14).
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby sempaispellcheck on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:36 am

josko.ri wrote:We have 6 groups of 8 teams and 32 teams advancing.
I can see 2 scenarios how that can be done, and in OP I didn't find clarification which one is correct:

1. The best 5 from each group advance, together with 2 the best 6th placed teams (30+2).

2. The best 32 teams from all groups together, regardless of their placement within the group (theoretically, this can mean that the whole group can advance, if for example everyone within the group makes score of 7/14).

I had stated in this thread (can't find the post, unfortunately) that the top 48 teams, regardless of group placement, would advance to Round 2.
(I had thought) it was implied that that policy would carry through the tournament - meaning your scenario 2 is what is going to happen, and it will be the same for all future rounds.

TAKE NOTE: From Round 4, the tourney may seem like a bracket, but it may not necessarily follow the bracket format (meaning the loser of a matchup may advance instead of or with the winner).
Nevermind this - it will not happen (see my reply to josko's post below).

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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby josko.ri on Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:25 am

Thank for the answer, however your note made another uncertainty in my understanding:

sempaispellcheck wrote:TAKE NOTE: From Round 4, the tourney may seem like a bracket, but it may not necessarily follow the bracket format (meaning the loser of a matchup may advance instead of or with the winner).


I am not sure how is this possible, because in every tie, winner will have more than 50% wins and every loser will have less than 50% wins.
In case of round 4, from 15 games played, every "winner" (8 teams) will have 8 or more wins, and every "loser" (8 teams) will have 7 or less wins.

So in which scenario it can happen than some of 8 "losers" with 7 or less wins can overcome some of 8 "winners" with 8 or more wins?
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Re: The Championships - Doubles

Postby sempaispellcheck on Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:19 am

josko.ri wrote:Thank for the answer, however your note made another uncertainty in my understanding:

sempaispellcheck wrote:TAKE NOTE: From Round 4, the tourney may seem like a bracket, but it may not necessarily follow the bracket format (meaning the loser of a matchup may advance instead of or with the winner).


I am not sure how is this possible, because in every tie, winner will have more than 50% wins and every loser will have less than 50% wins.
In case of round 4, from 15 games played, every "winner" (8 teams) will have 8 or more wins, and every "loser" (8 teams) will have 7 or less wins.

So in which scenario it can happen than some of 8 "losers" with 7 or less wins can overcome some of 8 "winners" with 8 or more wins?

Actually, this won't happen - since scores reset after each round.
I had forgotten that little tidbit - having been in another autotourney where I advanced even though I had lost my matchup because scores did not reset.

My apologies for any confusion I have caused here.

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