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Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Optimus Prime on Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:14 pm

Night Strike wrote:
barterer2002 wrote:7. Thus, there was a point in time in CC where the accepted standard within the TD community was that TOs could exclude players for any reason they felt like.


Any instances brought before the Directors were upheld at those times, but I don't think that automatically means every single instance will be upheld. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is excluded from a tournament but then doesn't challenge it, then there's nowhere for me to step in. It's only when someone complains about it that we step in. Past instances may have been upheld, but the instance that sparked this discussion did not seem justified in my mind, hence the decision.

Hate to break it to you friend, but if you feel that reason just recently wasn't justified then you never should have let me exclude Blitzaholic when I did. He created a huge stink about it and you let me have my way. It doesn't matter that I was admin at the time, you were Head Tournament Director and should have put your foot down if you are going to hold the line in such a way now. We both know, as does everybody else, that my exclusion of Blitzaholic was far from justified.

To make such an argument now about justification puts you in a bit of a corner, don't you think?
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Optimus Prime on Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:17 pm

Incandenza wrote:So let me see if I've got this straight...

TO's cannot:
Set minimum points above 2000
Create intra-clan tourneys
(hell, we couldn't get game creation privs for inter-clan tourneys until a couple months ago after years of begging)
Generally reserve all spots
Run a smaller tourney than the guidelines state

TO's can:
Exclude people based on personal whim

And apparently former admins can threaten the system if their personal opinions are not upheld:

Optimus Prime wrote:And yes, I will start a rampage of horror if I find that tournament organizer rights are being trod upon in an unfair manner. I'm not joking.


Have I misstated anything?

Oh, and this:

Optimus Prime wrote:Because if lackattack can force users to change their avatars because he is personally offended by them (reason for offense is of no matter, let's make that clear), and threaten them with suspended use of the forums, then if a tournament organizer is truly offended, they have the right to refuse entry into their tournament.


is a terrible argument, because owner of the website > some wanker that starts a tourney, in every single way that makes any kind of difference whatsoever.


On your first point, I don't believe anyone will put any degree of care into any threats I do or do not make. I do know that I'm pissed as hell at the state of tournaments right now after having done all the work I did as admin as well as the two years before I became admin, and regardless of what anyone thinks, I'll make that fact known as much as I damn well please.

As to the second point, no, it isn't different, and you would know that if you were privy to the type of information I was privy to at one point. Will I share it? No, because I'm not in a position to do so any longer, but if I was I would, that's for sure.
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Lindax on Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:55 pm

Optimus Prime wrote:I do know that I'm pissed as hell at the state of tournaments right now after having done all the work I did as admin as well as the two years before I became admin, and regardless of what anyone thinks, I'll make that fact known as much as I damn well please.


It's obvious that you're pissed and that is your good right. However, considering the fact that the vast majority of TOs and tournament participants seem to be pretty happy with the way thing are going, I find this a bit of a strange and derogatory thing to say.

Would you care to elaborate or are you simply frustrated and stuck in the past?

Or do I misunderstand and you're simply jealous of how well things are going without you?

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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Optimus Prime on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:04 pm

I'm not stuck in the past. Tournaments were better in the past and I am not the only person who thinks that way. Right now they are just a bunch of people wanting an easy path to a medal more often than not. Back before I was an admin, even before I was a Tournament Director tournaments were a thing of pride and people actually took some time to put real effort into thinking up a unique idea and making the experience actually worthwhile instead of mailing it in to get their medal and compete in some stupid standings race.

Don't tell me that isn't the case Lindax. It's true whether or not you want to believe it and it has nothing to do with me "being gone." I'd still have the admin job if I had wanted to keep it, that's a fact.

Your "vast majority of TOs" you speak of don't mean a damn thing. Start paying attention to the ones who actually know how to do things the right way and I think you'll find an incredibly vast difference in opinion. Of course, good luck with that, you've fostered an environment that has chased out most of the good ones already.
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Lindax on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:11 pm

Optimus Prime wrote:I'm not stuck in the past. Tournaments were better in the past and I am not the only person who thinks that way. Right now they are just a bunch of people wanting an easy path to a medal more often than not. Back before I was an admin, even before I was a Tournament Director tournaments were a thing of pride and people actually took some time to put real effort into thinking up a unique idea and making the experience actually worthwhile instead of mailing it in to get their medal and compete in some stupid standings race.

Don't tell me that isn't the case Lindax. It's true whether or not you want to believe it and it has nothing to do with me "being gone." I'd still have the admin job if I had wanted to keep it, that's a fact.

Your "vast majority of TOs" you speak of don't mean a damn thing. Start paying attention to the ones who actually know how to do things the right way and I think you'll find an incredibly vast difference in opinion. Of course, good luck with that, you've fostered an environment that has chased out most of the good ones already.


You're right I wasn't there for the "glory days" of tournaments.

I understand what you're saying, I just think you're exaggerating a bit. There are still plenty of tournaments going on that fit your description. Tournaments that make a TO proud of running it and participants proud of winning (or even simply participating in) it.

Yes, there are also numerous easy and quick tournaments. What is wrong with that? People enjoy them and I think most people still come to CC for their enjoyment.

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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby greenoaks on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:56 pm

Optimus Prime wrote:Your "vast majority of TOs" you speak of don't mean a damn thing. Start paying attention to the ones who actually know how to do things the right way and I think you'll find an incredibly vast difference in opinion. Of course, good luck with that, you've fostered an environment that has chased out most of the good ones already.


i'm running a tournament - do i matter
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Lindax on Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:27 pm

greenoaks wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote:Your "vast majority of TOs" you speak of don't mean a damn thing. Start paying attention to the ones who actually know how to do things the right way and I think you'll find an incredibly vast difference in opinion. Of course, good luck with that, you've fostered an environment that has chased out most of the good ones already.


i'm running a tournament - do i matter


Yes, you do.

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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby HighlanderAttack on Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:08 am

A few points from an addicted tourney player and organizer.

There does not seem to be a huge issue with any exclusion of player in tourneys that I am aware of.

I use these guidelines myself, but the reality is I barely ever exclude anyone from one of my tourneys:

Anyone with less than 99% turns taken may be left out of the tourney without a decent excuse that they will play the games without missing turns.

Foed players may be left out of the tourney.

Players that do not join games or miss turns may not be allowed into future tourneys.



There are a few players that have called me the most vulgar of things and said things about my mother and so forth. I would not allow those players into my tourneys no matter what anyone said and if I was told I have to I would abandon the tourney.

I have got into it with many players, and have foed many players--that is just because I am sometimes a hot head and I don't like bad play--luckily for me most of that comes in escalating multi player games and I don't run many of them. 1v1 styles would not have an effect on my personal issues with players multi player strategy.

My point being--Myself and others that may have policy's against players joining should be allowed to have them. At the same time they should be allowed to be questioned by the player that is being told they cannot play. All in all I am not aware of this being a big problem, but I do think some policy may need to be officially listed so when questions and issues come up there is a written solution.

The tourney program has grown so much in the last year and a half and has become so popular that there will be issues. The more guidelines and rules set up to answer these issues the better.

Contrary to the belief of some--most organizers and players are not into it for the virtual trophy, but for the competition. Tourneys are a great way to have fun and compete and I am enjoying the progress. I do not always agree with the TD's but they really do a great job keeping everything running smoothly.

Thanks
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Woodruff on Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:25 pm

Optimus Prime wrote:I'm not stuck in the past. Tournaments were better in the past and I am not the only person who thinks that way. Right now they are just a bunch of people wanting an easy path to a medal more often than not. Back before I was an admin, even before I was a Tournament Director tournaments were a thing of pride and people actually took some time to put real effort into thinking up a unique idea and making the experience actually worthwhile instead of mailing it in to get their medal and compete in some stupid standings race.


If they're so bad now...why didn't you join? http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=126716
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby barterer2002 on Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:38 pm

OK we're off topic a bit here again lets see if I can bring it back around to the topic at hand and leave the "state of tournaments" to the other thread.

1. There is a clear difference of opinion as to whether there was a historic right to exclude players for any reason. To continue to hide behind the idea that "we haven't changed anything we're just doing it the way its always been" in the face of any number of challenges to that idea is at the very least myopic. It is clear that at the very least there is and has been a perceived perception among TOs that this right exists and ignoring that is a problem.

2. This situation is easy enough to handle. Night Strike I'm going to call you out publicly since you asked me to do so after I tried to deal with it in other areas. You needed to do a better job getting out in front here. You needed to address the perception that this right exists and realized that making an argument that "we haven't changed anything" is at this point not doing anything to move things forward. Instead you've hid behind rhetoric rather than trying to move forward with a solution. What you should have said was something along the lines of "Regardless of how the perception has been in the past, this is how it will be from this day going forward. TOs may exclude any player from their tournaments as they see fit. If any such player feels that this exclusion is unwarranted they may appeal to the TDs for a ruling and the TDs shall hear the facts and decide each case on the merits on a case by case basis. In the event the TDs determine that the exclusion is unwarranted they shall require the TO to accept said player back into the tournament."

Most TOs are reasonable. None of us wants to see a situation where exclusions are abused and recognize the need for some sort of appeals process. The issue here is now, and always has been, the perception of heavy handedness on the part of the TDs in making changes without bothering to inform the TOs about this. Whether or not you believe that this is the way its always been is somewhat irrelevant because its certainly not how its been understood by those of us doing the organizing. A simple recognition of that would have made things a lot easier and we probably could have moved on much quicker and easier.
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby HighlanderAttack on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:54 am

"Regardless of how the perception has been in the past, this is how it will be from this day going forward. TOs may exclude any player from their tournaments as they see fit. If any such player feels that this exclusion is unwarranted they may appeal to the TDs for a ruling and the TDs shall hear the facts and decide each case on the merits on a case by case basis. In the event the TDs determine that the exclusion is unwarranted they shall require the TO to accept said player back into the tournament."




To me this is a perfect statement and actually could be the rule or something along these lines. It would be good to have it clarified in the rules to make sure we don't have any issues going forward.
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby jeraado on Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:19 am

The way I see it, tournament organisers provide a major service to CC. I love joining tournaments and I usually try to prioritise my tournament games, knowing that a whole heap of players and a very busy tournament organiser will be waiting if my game drags on. Whilst Optimus is right that some tournaments are just a chance for a medal, I have been part of some fantastic tournaments which have clearly taken a lot of time and effort to set up.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that TOs should have some all-powerful status, but I do think that there should be some allowance for the fact that TOs are doing us a service. I believe that TOs should generally have the right to exclude individuals from their tournaments, without needing to refer to a specific set of rules. Issues of unfair targetting or abuse of power can be resolved as they come up, and should be guided by the standards of the CC community, much like the C&A forum. However I believe that this should only be for obvious misuse of the TOs right to refuse entry, and that the benefit of the doubt should be with the TO

Having people willing to run tournaments is a big part of the fun of CC and I believe that it should be made as easy as possible for people to do that. Given that this is the first time I've seen a complaint about being denied entry to a tournament, I think that setting a standard or making any changes is trying to solve an problem which doesn't really exist.
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:24 am

NS, you continue to disappoint me with your lack of response on this. Hanging back and hoping the issue just goes away isn't the way to lead. You're better than that and your administration has been better than that. Why start now with this tatic?
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Optimus Prime on Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:00 am

barterer2002 wrote:NS, you continue to disappoint me with your lack of response on this. Hanging back and hoping the issue just goes away isn't the way to lead. You're better than that and your administration has been better than that. Why start now with this tatic?

I like Night Strike, I think that is pretty obvious. However, with what little contact I've had with him since departing as admin I think his life is just a little too full with other things for him to focus on the site as much as he should.

I think his leadership is probably just fine to be honest, I just don't think he has the time to do this anymore. I say that as a friend who respects him very much.
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Re: Excluding Tournament Players Discussion

Postby Night Strike on Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:05 pm

Optimus Prime wrote:
barterer2002 wrote:NS, you continue to disappoint me with your lack of response on this. Hanging back and hoping the issue just goes away isn't the way to lead. You're better than that and your administration has been better than that. Why start now with this tatic?

I like Night Strike, I think that is pretty obvious. However, with what little contact I've had with him since departing as admin I think his life is just a little too full with other things for him to focus on the site as much as he should.

I think his leadership is probably just fine to be honest, I just don't think he has the time to do this anymore. I say that as a friend who respects him very much.


You are exactly correct about my personal time allotment. However, this issue has been brought up in the TD forum where it is currently waiting on input from more Directors.
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