Moderator: Tournament Directors
patrickaa317 wrote:12 players on a team.
6 games per round = 6-24 spots for those games. (6 singles games to 6 quads games)
If each player has to play 2 games, that means 24 spots are required to maintain medal possibility if there are 12 players on a team, which would allow no room at all for non-quads games as they only way to maintain this is to have ALL quads games.
EDIT: Realized 12 spots per team a possibility, updated above post.
Lindax wrote:IcePack, of course you can run your Large-Team Tournament. All you need to do is show us that you are serious about it. You're already running a few tournaments, so you shouldn't be that far away from meeting the requirements.
BTW: Can I ask you what happened to the "Epic Teams" tournament you were supposed to organize together with chapcrap?
Lx
IcePack wrote:Lindax wrote:IcePack, of course you can run your Large-Team Tournament. All you need to do is show us that you are serious about it. You're already running a few tournaments, so you shouldn't be that far away from meeting the requirements.
BTW: Can I ask you what happened to the "Epic Teams" tournament you were supposed to organize together with chapcrap?
Lx
IcePack wrote:I'm more than willing to run it if I'm allowed, thank u for saying I can. Does that mean even if it doesn't meet every new requirement?
IcePack wrote:I have two ongoing tournaments, a 1 vs 1 clan war vs legion, and a tournament league in sign ups. It'll still be awhile before these "complete" seeing as they aren't tiny tournaments. I have no "team tournaments" as of yet. The 3 completed & 1 team means I'll still be months away from meeting even the capability to host it. I am serious about it, I've been here less then a year and I've been involved with a clan, tournaments, very active in forums, tournaments, and logged 1600 completed games. I'm here for the long haul. I've also done a "unofficial" tournament within KOA bcuz TD's said it couldn't be made a tournament due to 100% invites, and so they've all been private games.
IcePack wrote:I've updated my tournaments regularly and keep them moving. The tournament with chapcrap was always his tournament, I said I would help out. Unfortunately I had some personal problems, a unexpected move, and a surgery to deal with right when it was to start up. My job was to create games, which I could hav e done but I'd had delayed his start a bit so I stepped aside so that his tournament wouldnt be slowed down due to my issues. After those were sorted out I had my tourney nearly ready and healed the first week of surgery when I was posting it, but the new moratorium on large team games came into play.
IcePack wrote:I didn't like it, but it was suggested I should run some tournaments in the meantime as likely there would be a requirement for it. So even tho I only had interest in running one, I've started 3 others to show I was serious about it. It wasn't mentioned one would need to be a team tournament or I'd have started that so I would be "on the way" to started the only one I still really wanting to run.
IcePack wrote:Ive run similar ones at gaming conventions and other sites, I adjusted the set up to "fit" CC tournament games and set up. But I doubt I can fit it into the 12 man requirement, and it'll still be months away before I complete the 3 required tournaments.
IcePack wrote:The whole idea of my large team tournament was I couldn't do ANYTHING for two months after my surgery (couldn't walk) so id have all day and night in bed to run it. Now, ive healed up and am back to work so instead of giving 100% to it it'll actually slow the tournament down as summer is the busiest time of work for me. (summer). I could have gotten thru the first several rounds which would be the heaviest part of the work load, so that by summer it'd be less for me to handle. See, I HAD put a lot of thought into t and making sure it'd be successful.
IcePack wrote:Anyway, do whatever you like. I'll give my opinion and you can allow me or not, I'm just upset I wasted so much time preparing something for CC community that ultimately wasnt even able to get off the ground, and even if it is run t won't go as smoothly as it would have when I actually wanted to run it 2 months ago, and the stop to those tournaments actually preventing the very thing it was intended to ensure. Well run tournaments from people who would be actively pursuing it's timely completion.
IcePack wrote:If you have any other question about chaps tournament feel free to PM me, I won't give personal details here.
patrickaa317 wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:12 players on a team.
6 games per round = 6-24 spots for those games. (6 singles games to 6 quads games)
If each player has to play 2 games, that means 24 spots are required to maintain medal possibility if there are 12 players on a team, which would allow no room at all for non-quads games as they only way to maintain this is to have ALL quads games.
EDIT: Realized 12 spots per team a possibility, updated above post.
bump. Looking for a response from a TD.
IcePack wrote:and I don't think you care about the time I've wasted trying to put on a CC tournament that was a lot of work.
IcePack
Lindax wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:12 players on a team.
6 games per round = 6-24 spots for those games. (6 singles games to 6 quads games)
If each player has to play 2 games, that means 24 spots are required to maintain medal possibility if there are 12 players on a team, which would allow no room at all for non-quads games as they only way to maintain this is to have ALL quads games.
EDIT: Realized 12 spots per team a possibility, updated above post.
bump. Looking for a response from a TD.
I'll give you a response if you give me a question.
Anyway, you can have any number of games per round and for a Large-Team Tournament 6 games per round doesn't sound like much. That said, even with 6 games per round all of the players could theoretically get a medal since you only need to play in 50% of the rounds.
Lx
Night Strike wrote:4.- To be eligible for a Tournament Achievement Medal a member of the winning team must:
- Have played at least one-third (33%) of the tournament games he/she could have played.
i.e. If a player could play in a max of 6 games per round, then they need to average at least 2 games per round over the course of the tournament.
- Have participated in at least half (50%) of all rounds or phases of the tournament.
- Have won 1 game in the tournament.
Note: This rule is in addition to the existing rules about Tournament Achievement Medals.
patrickaa317 wrote:Lindax wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:12 players on a team.
6 games per round = 6-24 spots for those games. (6 singles games to 6 quads games)
If each player has to play 2 games, that means 24 spots are required to maintain medal possibility if there are 12 players on a team, which would allow no room at all for non-quads games as they only way to maintain this is to have ALL quads games.
EDIT: Realized 12 spots per team a possibility, updated above post.
bump. Looking for a response from a TD.
I'll give you a response if you give me a question.
Anyway, you can have any number of games per round and for a Large-Team Tournament 6 games per round doesn't sound like much. That said, even with 6 games per round all of the players could theoretically get a medal since you only need to play in 50% of the rounds.
Lx
According to the original post:Night Strike wrote:4.- To be eligible for a Tournament Achievement Medal a member of the winning team must:
- Have played at least one-third (33%) of the tournament games he/she could have played.
i.e. If a player could play in a max of 6 games per round, then they need to average at least 2 games per round over the course of the tournament.
- Have participated in at least half (50%) of all rounds or phases of the tournament.
- Have won 1 game in the tournament.
Note: This rule is in addition to the existing rules about Tournament Achievement Medals.
You have to play in 1/3 of the games you could play in to be eligible for a medal. With 12 players per team, the only way all players can qualify is if you all play only Quads games and every player is involved in an exact equal number of them. If you have 12 players per team, and there is one game that involves Triples, then at the very most only 11 players will be eligible for a medal. It is impossible for the 12th player to be able to meet the 1/3 minimum requirement at that point.
And the number of total games would have to be a multiple of 3 otherwise at least one player still wouldn't qualify. 100 games = 400 spots; each player has to play in 33.3 games to qualify. Since you can't play .3 of a game, you have to play 34 games to meet the minimum requirement. Players ABCD play games 1-34, Players EFGH play games 35-68, Players IJKL play games 69-100. Players IJKL only played 32 games and thus do not qualify for a team medal.
The math is the same whether it's 6 games per round or 600 games per round. And even though you only have to participate in half of the rounds, you still have to average 1/3 over the course of the tournament.
I understand the need for new requirements for Large Team tourneys but with this math it makes things tough to organize a tourney where all 12 players could all receive a medal.
Is that really what is desired? Where all 12 player Large Team tourneys are restricted to Quads only games? Perhaps there could be "medium sized" team tourneys (5-10 players) and then "large sized" team tourneys (11+ players).
And on a side note:
This new rule will completely eliminate tournaments like Tupence's 2012 Olympics which I have found to be very fun and a very unique layout. You could never have Singles games in large team tournaments unless you also incorporate 1 quads game for every 2 singles games to bring up the average game count; and that would restrict the maximum amount of players to 6 per team to ensure everyone is medal eligible.
IcePack wrote:You also couldn't have regular eliminations, as anyone eliminated in the large team event early rounds wouldn't have played half the rounds minimum and therefore not receive a medal for help in the early rounds. Those eliminated in 1st round would be completely impossible, which I'm fine with they wouldn't get 1 win. But the next few rounds would eliminate several players as well, and if ur limited to 5-12 those teams will dry up pretty quickly. Most of the winning team might not even get the medal...
Lindax wrote:IcePack wrote:You also couldn't have regular eliminations, as anyone eliminated in the large team event early rounds wouldn't have played half the rounds minimum and therefore not receive a medal for help in the early rounds. Those eliminated in 1st round would be completely impossible, which I'm fine with they wouldn't get 1 win. But the next few rounds would eliminate several players as well, and if ur limited to 5-12 those teams will dry up pretty quickly. Most of the winning team might not even get the medal...
I'd really like to know what kind of tournament set-up you guys are talking about.
Lx
Lindax wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:Lindax wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:patrickaa317 wrote:12 players on a team.
6 games per round = 6-24 spots for those games. (6 singles games to 6 quads games)
If each player has to play 2 games, that means 24 spots are required to maintain medal possibility if there are 12 players on a team, which would allow no room at all for non-quads games as they only way to maintain this is to have ALL quads games.
EDIT: Realized 12 spots per team a possibility, updated above post.
bump. Looking for a response from a TD.
I'll give you a response if you give me a question.
Anyway, you can have any number of games per round and for a Large-Team Tournament 6 games per round doesn't sound like much. That said, even with 6 games per round all of the players could theoretically get a medal since you only need to play in 50% of the rounds.
Lx
According to the original post:Night Strike wrote:4.- To be eligible for a Tournament Achievement Medal a member of the winning team must:
- Have played at least one-third (33%) of the tournament games he/she could have played.
i.e. If a player could play in a max of 6 games per round, then they need to average at least 2 games per round over the course of the tournament.
- Have participated in at least half (50%) of all rounds or phases of the tournament.
- Have won 1 game in the tournament.
Note: This rule is in addition to the existing rules about Tournament Achievement Medals.
You have to play in 1/3 of the games you could play in to be eligible for a medal. With 12 players per team, the only way all players can qualify is if you all play only Quads games and every player is involved in an exact equal number of them. If you have 12 players per team, and there is one game that involves Triples, then at the very most only 11 players will be eligible for a medal. It is impossible for the 12th player to be able to meet the 1/3 minimum requirement at that point.
And the number of total games would have to be a multiple of 3 otherwise at least one player still wouldn't qualify. 100 games = 400 spots; each player has to play in 33.3 games to qualify. Since you can't play .3 of a game, you have to play 34 games to meet the minimum requirement. Players ABCD play games 1-34, Players EFGH play games 35-68, Players IJKL play games 69-100. Players IJKL only played 32 games and thus do not qualify for a team medal.
The math is the same whether it's 6 games per round or 600 games per round. And even though you only have to participate in half of the rounds, you still have to average 1/3 over the course of the tournament.
I understand the need for new requirements for Large Team tourneys but with this math it makes things tough to organize a tourney where all 12 players could all receive a medal.
Is that really what is desired? Where all 12 player Large Team tourneys are restricted to Quads only games? Perhaps there could be "medium sized" team tourneys (5-10 players) and then "large sized" team tourneys (11+ players).
And on a side note:
This new rule will completely eliminate tournaments like Tupence's 2012 Olympics which I have found to be very fun and a very unique layout. You could never have Singles games in large team tournaments unless you also incorporate 1 quads game for every 2 singles games to bring up the average game count; and that would restrict the maximum amount of players to 6 per team to ensure everyone is medal eligible.
Mmmm.... I'm not a math person, maybe somebody else can jump in here as far as numbers are concerned.
I'm not sure I understand your problem. If you make sure you have enough games per round there should not be a problem with medal eligibility.... And what's the point of a Large-Team Tournament if all players cannot participate in each round?
Lx
Lindax wrote:IcePack wrote:You also couldn't have regular eliminations, as anyone eliminated in the large team event early rounds wouldn't have played half the rounds minimum and therefore not receive a medal for help in the early rounds. Those eliminated in 1st round would be completely impossible, which I'm fine with they wouldn't get 1 win. But the next few rounds would eliminate several players as well, and if ur limited to 5-12 those teams will dry up pretty quickly. Most of the winning team might not even get the medal...
I'd really like to know what kind of tournament set-up you guys are talking about. I'm running a Large-Team Tournament right now where pretty much everybody is eligible for the medal and we play three 1 v 1 games, 4 doubles, 2 trips and only 1 quad game, per round, per team.
Lx
Lindax wrote:Patrick: I think I get your point. Just can't get my mind around it at the moment, it's late and I should be in bed by now.
One thing: Rest assured that it's NOT our intention to have Large-Team Tournaments only of quad games.
Lx
patrickaa317 wrote:Lindax wrote:IcePack wrote:You also couldn't have regular eliminations, as anyone eliminated in the large team event early rounds wouldn't have played half the rounds minimum and therefore not receive a medal for help in the early rounds. Those eliminated in 1st round would be completely impossible, which I'm fine with they wouldn't get 1 win. But the next few rounds would eliminate several players as well, and if ur limited to 5-12 those teams will dry up pretty quickly. Most of the winning team might not even get the medal...
I'd really like to know what kind of tournament set-up you guys are talking about. I'm running a Large-Team Tournament right now where pretty much everybody is eligible for the medal and we play three 1 v 1 games, 4 doubles, 2 trips and only 1 quad game, per round, per team.
Lx
I'm thinking completely different styles than IcePack.
Here's a quick, easy scenario.
8 teams. 12 players each (ABCDEFGHIJKL)
Simple standard best of 9 bracket each round. 3 quads, 3 trips, 3 dubs
Quads 1 = ABCD
Quads 2 = EFGH
Quads 3 = IJKL
Trips 1 = ABC
Trips 2 = DEF
Trips 3 = GHI
Dubs 1 = JK
Dubs 2 = LA
Dubs 3 = BC
9 games each player must play 3 to qualify for a team medal. Only players A, B, & C would qualify for a medal based on the first round.
Second round you could go:
Quads 1 = DEFG
Quads 2 = HIJK
Quads 3 = LABC
Trips 1 = DEF
Trips 2 = GHI
Trips 3 = JKL
Dubs 1 = AB
Dubs 2 = CD
Dubs 3 = EF
Now you must have played in 6 of the 18 games. And 0 players would qualify for a team medal after Round 2.
It only gets worse as you go through more and more rounds.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you change it to 5 Quads, 2 trips, & 2 dubs
Quads 1 = ABCD
Quads 2 = EFGH
Quads 3 = IJKL
Quads 4 = ABCD
Quads 5 = EFGH
Trips 1 = IJK
Trips 2 = LAB
Dubs 1 = CD
Dubs 2 = EF
Still must play 3 games to qualify. Only players A, B, C, D, E, & F would qualify.
Round 2:
Quads 1 = GHIJ
Quads 2 = KLAB
Quads 3 = CDEF
Quads 4 = GHIJ
Quads 5 = KLAB
Trips 1 = CDE
Trips 2 = FGH
Dubs 1 = IJ
Dubs 2 = KL
Must have played in 6 of 18 games to qualify. All players only have 5 games. Again, this only gets worse the more rounds you progress. And 0 players would qualify for a team medal after Round 2.
Have played at least one-third (33%) of the tournament games he/she could have played.
it is only possible for a player to play in 1 quads, 1 trips & 1 dubs - so 3 games.patrickaa317 wrote:Here's a quick, easy scenario.
8 teams. 12 players each (ABCDEFGHIJKL)
Simple standard best of 9 bracket each round. 3 quads, 3 trips, 3 dubs
Quads 1 = ABCD
Quads 2 = EFGH
Quads 3 = IJKL
Trips 1 = ABC
Trips 2 = DEF
Trips 3 = GHI
Dubs 1 = JK
Dubs 2 = LA
Dubs 3 = BC
9 games each player must play 3 to qualify for a team medal. Only players A, B, & C would qualify for a medal based on the first round.
patrickaa317 wrote:Second round you could go:
Quads 1 = DEFG
Quads 2 = HIJK
Quads 3 = LABC
Trips 1 = DEF
Trips 2 = GHI
Trips 3 = JKL
Dubs 1 = AB
Dubs 2 = CD
Dubs 3 = EF
Now you must have played in 6 of the 18 games. And 0 players would qualify for a team medal after Round 2.
It only gets worse as you go through more and more rounds.
patrickaa317 wrote:12 players on a team.
6 games per round = 6-24 spots for those games. (6 singles games to 6 quads games)
If each player has to play 2 games, that means 24 spots are required to maintain medal possibility if there are 12 players on a team, which would allow no room at all for non-quads games as they only way to maintain this is to have ALL quads games.
EDIT: Realized 12 spots per team a possibility, updated above post.
IcePack wrote:Why does there need to be a limit on players? Well run tournaments, regardless of size, as long as they have appropriate sign ups and safeguards (ie reserve player policy) it should be able to be run. The line could very well be as long as they had a well designed format and allowed each players enough games etc.
IcePack wrote:The third - do you punish employees or using ur example, require truck drivers to had back up drivers before they've made a mistake? This is overkill. As long as the TO doesn't have a history of abandoning tournaments, why should they have to have an assistant? Den make a requimrent the sheets have to be emailed to a TD! Then u don't need an assistant and if it's abandoned they can email the sheets to the TO rescuing it.
IcePack wrote:I didn't like it, but it was suggested I should run some tournaments in the meantime as likely there would be a requirement for it. So even tho I only had interest in running one, I've started 3 others to show I was serious about it. It wasn't mentioned one would need to be a team tournament or I'd have started that so I would be "on the way" to started the only one I still really wanting to run.
patrickaa317 wrote:You have to play in 1/3 of the games you could play in to be eligible for a medal. With 12 players per team, the only way all players can qualify is if you all play only Quads games and every player is involved in an exact equal number of them. If you have 12 players per team, and there is one game that involves Triples, then at the very most only 11 players will be eligible for a medal. It is impossible for the 12th player to be able to meet the 1/3 minimum requirement at that point.
And the number of total games would have to be a multiple of 3 otherwise at least one player still wouldn't qualify. 100 games = 400 spots; each player has to play in 33.3 games to qualify. Since you can't play .3 of a game, you have to play 34 games to meet the minimum requirement. Players ABCD play games 1-34, Players EFGH play games 35-68, Players IJKL play games 69-100. Players IJKL only played 32 games and thus do not qualify for a team medal.
The math is the same whether it's 6 games per round or 600 games per round. And even though you only have to participate in half of the rounds, you still have to average 1/3 over the course of the tournament.
I understand the need for new requirements for Large Team tourneys but with this math it makes things tough to organize a tourney where all 12 players could all receive a medal.
Is that really what is desired? Where all 12 player Large Team tourneys are restricted to Quads only games? Perhaps there could be "medium sized" team tourneys (5-10 players) and then "large sized" team tourneys (11+ players).
And on a side note:
This new rule will completely eliminate tournaments like Tupence's 2012 Olympics which I have found to be very fun and a very unique layout. You could never have Singles games in large team tournaments unless you also incorporate 1 quads game for every 2 singles games to bring up the average game count; and that would restrict the maximum amount of players to 6 per team to ensure everyone is medal eligible.
IcePack wrote:You also couldn't have regular eliminations, as anyone eliminated in the large team event early rounds wouldn't have played half the rounds minimum and therefore not receive a medal for help in the early rounds. Those eliminated in 1st round would be completely impossible, which I'm fine with they wouldn't get 1 win. But the next few rounds would eliminate several players as well, and if ur limited to 5-12 those teams will dry up pretty quickly. Most of the winning team might not even get the medal...
patrickaa317 wrote:The number of games per round is irrelevant. It is based on percentage played. The more games you have per round, the more games it takes to earn a medal.
All players would & could participate each round. The issue is that if you have all doubles games for the large team tournament, any more than 7 players per large team and all members can not mathematically qualify for medals. If you have 12 players, you can only use quadruples to ensure medal eligibility.
What's the point of having large team tourneys if you can not utilize a large variety of settings? (i.e. Singles, dubs, trips, & quads)
Night Strike wrote:It's 1/3 of eligible games, not 1/3 of all games. If you have 12 players and want to do 6 doubles pairings, that would be perfectly acceptable. In that scenario, it is understood that each player would take up 1 spot each round, so as long as they play in half the rounds, that would be fine (b/c the 50% rule would trump the 33% one in this case).
Put differently, the organizer sets up a scenario where there are 9 games per round of some mixture of settings, and each player can only play a maximum of 6 games. Therefore their eligible number of games per round is 6 but the number of all games per round is 9. So they would only have to average 2 games per round and not the 3 games per round as they are only eligible to play in 6 games, not 9 games.
Have played at least one-third (33%) of the tournament games he/she could have played.
SirSebstar wrote:patrickaa317, I concur, that it is a truly tight squeeze, but it is just, but only just, doable. let me explain..
Lindax, lets take the TLO 2010 as an example.
Each round consists of 3 singles games (1v1), 4 doubles games, 2 triples games and 1 quad game.
A team is 4 to 6 players. Lets assume 6 players.
There are 10 games a round. You must participate in 4 to qualify for the 1/3th. rule.
this is 6x4 spots= 28 spots filled right of the bat, without any room for less games per player.
those 10 games have a total of (3+8+6+4=)21 spots.
ergo, if you feature a TLO team with 6 players, you cannot all get a medal, even if you win every single game on the tournament.
TLO 2010 wrote:The same player cannot play more than 1 singles match, 2 doubles matches, 2 triples matches and the quad match.
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