Conquer Club

Rebs vs Yankees [Winners: danryan & Karl_R_Kroenen]

Tournaments completed in 2009.

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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby colton24 on Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:54 pm

AndrewB wrote:owenshooter, really, take it easy pal.

nobody made this tournament as a insult to you, or to any "offended".

if you want to put your twisted meaning into anything that surrounds you, you can, and it looks like you will.

But do it in your private matter and your private space. Don't spoil fun for others.


i was going to put the same thing but in a way that would get me a forum ban
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby neanderpaul14 on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:52 pm

neanderpaul14 wrote:
owenshooter wrote:the rebel flag is illegal in many states, as it is sign of racism/bigotry. brett attempted to sign me up without asking me, and i do not wish to participate in this racist and bigoted tournament. furthermore, colton should be dealt with in C&A for this, because it is a clear violation of the bigotry guidelines. this thread/tournament was made out of ignorance for the feelings of others and the historical significance of the confederate flag. this should be dealt with immediately-0

p.s.-way to go colton, enjoy my foe list. first ever to make it.




Ummmm.....????? Could you please tell me which states the Confederate flag is actually illegal in?? I know it was removed from state buildings but was unaware it is illegal in any state.



Excuse me Owen, I hate to repeat myself and quote my own post but, please tell me where in the U.S. is the Confederate flag actually illegal.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby alster on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:59 am

neanderpaul14 wrote:Excuse me Owen, I hate to repeat myself and quote my own post but, please tell me where in the U.S. is the Confederate flag actually illegal.


At NYU? :D
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby dshedd on Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:42 am

To answer your question:
It is not Illegal to fly a confederate flag in ANY state in this country. Freedom of speech lets you do that all you want, just as it lets you get swasticka tatoos, just as it lets you burn American flags, just as it lets you be a member of the Ku Klux Klan (which, by the way, the Klan's two 'official flags' are the current flag of the United States of America and the christian flag used during the crusdades).

The State legislature of South Carolina passed a resolution not to fly the confederate flag on any public buildings anymore, but it is certainly not illegal to fly one by yourself.

Some private school college campuses - who get to make up their own rules, because they are private and not public schools - have made the flag illegal on their campuses, because of rascist association of the flag.

The NCAA has punished South Carolina for allowing the flag to fly predominantly in their state by not letting them host any "pre-determined site" national championships in any sport.

All this being said, the confederate flag that we know of today, is not actually the original confederate flag and it is not actually the "stars and bars" of the confederacy. The "stars and bars" looks relatively similar to the US flag, except there are only two stripes, one red, one white. There are 7 white stars in the blue circle. The flag we know of today as the confederate flag is a slight variation on the confederate navy's jack flag.

Today: 7 southern state flags have variations of confederate flags still incorporated into their design. Mississippi has the confederate flag we know today in the upper left hand corner of their flag, while AL, AR, FL, TN, GA, and NC all have variations of the original "stars and bars" as their flags.

So either all of the Southern state governments are still racist, or they are commemorating a time when they fought next to eachother for their various reasons - slavery being the most predominant one.

As far as the whole concept of the tournament - I see no problem with it. The Civil War is just about the most fascinating point in US history for a whole slew of reasons. The flag itself is not rascist - but it is often used by rascitst organizations and rascist people. I was a little surprised that the confederate flag was flying alone at the top of this forum - it would make more sense to have a union flag flying next to it - or perhaps, preferrably above it.

All this being said - a team that actively WANTS to be called "slave owners" is probably at LEAST a little rascist when there are plenty of other Southern phrases from the civil war that are less controversial. Certainly owning slaves was a historical fact in this country - but so was lynching people. Normal people don't WANT to be associated with these bad things. Hence the whole "the Civil War was about States' Rights." A true statement, but, really - they just don't want to seem like they were fighting for the state right of SLAVERY - because fighting for slavery sounds bad.

Sorry that was a long rant - but, this is actually a topic I'm quite interested in anyways, so I thought I'd put my two cents in (if its even worth that much). Anyways, my main point is that the whole thing is way more complicated than either of the two camps have made it seem in this forum. There are certainly undertones of rascism whenever you talk about the Civil War - but it doesn't make it any less historical. I mean, certainly the civil war cannot be disallowed as a subject of conversation for the possibility that someone might be offended. That's political correctness gone WAY TO FAR.

As far as I'm concerned, this tournament should go through. They should be allowed to be called "slave owners" - as slave owners were a big part of the civil war ----but, I mean, its ridiculous that they want to be called that. As long as nobody is a horrible person throughout this thing, it seems like it could be fun.

I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks, otherwise, I'd join up immediately. Good luck, guys, and play nice.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby Night Strike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:41 pm

And after that great synopsis by dshedd, it's time to quit hijacking this thread and start letting the people who want to play in this tournament sign up and play. If you want to continue the civil war discussions, please take it to Turtle Soup.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby colton24 on Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:42 pm

Night Strike wrote:And after that great synopsis by dshedd, it's time to quit hijacking this thread and start letting the people who want to play in this tournament sign up and play. If you want to continue the civil war discussions, please take it to Turtle Soup.


thank you nightstrike couldn't of said it better myself
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby anthroguy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:12 pm

Can't we at least exercise some discretion in team names? "Slave Owners" is obviously racist and intended to offend. The fact that it was allowed to slide speaks volumes about the character of some of the people joining this tournament and those who have approved it. I honestly thought it sounded like a cool tourney when I just saw the name "Rebs vs Yankees," but upon reading the description I had the same thoughts as owenshooter and dshedd. It seems very one sided, praising a deplorable and embarrassing chapter in our nation's history (I recognize this and I was born and raised in the South, where I still live).

If this goes, then what's wrong with a WW2 tourny where the organizer prominently displays the Nazi flag and cries "May the Third Reich rise again!"
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby jbrettlip on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:54 pm

anthroguy wrote:Can't we at least exercise some discretion in team names? "Slave Owners" is obviously racist and intended to offend. The fact that it was allowed to slide speaks volumes about the character of some of the people joining this tournament and those who have approved it. I honestly thought it sounded like a cool tourney when I just saw the name "Rebs vs Yankees," but upon reading the description I had the same thoughts as owenshooter and dshedd. It seems very one sided, praising a deplorable and embarrassing chapter in our nation's history (I recognize this and I was born and raised in the South, where I still live).

If this goes, then what's wrong with a WW2 tourny where the organizer prominently displays the Nazi flag and cries "May the Third Reich rise again!"


Because then it would be called the Fourth Reich. It is a numerical sequence.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby anthroguy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:53 pm

Coming from a "slave owner" team member, that probably is the only part that seems wrong.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby colton24 on Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:00 pm

anthroguy wrote:Coming from a "slave owner" team member, that probably is the only part that seems wrong.


i dont think they allow the nazi flags... anyways i tried to change his mind but it didnt work :-$
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby jbrettlip on Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:21 pm

anthroguy wrote:Coming from a "slave owner" team member, that probably is the only part that seems wrong.


without slave owners, abolitionists wouldn't have had anything to do.

Edit: Are you even in this tourney, or are you just trolling the thread?
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby anthroguy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:56 pm

I'm not in the tourny. I was going to join until I realized its character, then I made a comment, agreed with others, made a comparison, and asked a question. I was shocked at what the admin permitted, and felt it necessary to voice what I'm sure many others would say (and already have). I don't think it is trolling to speak out against something that is clearly wrong.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby jbrettlip on Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm

colton24 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:And after that great synopsis by dshedd, it's time to quit hijacking this thread and start letting the people who want to play in this tournament sign up and play. If you want to continue the civil war discussions, please take it to Turtle Soup.


thank you nightstrike couldn't of said it better myself


Then you should read what NS wrote.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby anthroguy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:32 am

Night Strike wrote:colton, your tournament is fine to run. Just make sure you don't allow racist team names (even if they are historical).


jbrett, I read what Nightstrike said (anyway, I'm not discussing the Civil War; I've only talked about this tournament). Maybe you should too, instead of childishly insisting on affiliating yourself with people, who by the standards of any modern person, are evil. I'm sincerely sorry if people on CC have bashed things that you hold dear (conservatism, religion, etc. - just going off of something you wrote earlier). You don't deserve that. But it's not an excuse to lower yourself to their level by intentionally (that much is obvious) offending the sensibilities of others.

I want the tournament to proceed as much as anyone. It's a good idea for a tourny. I'm just disappointed that people are using as it an opportunity to offend and I'm surprised that Nightstrike's recommendation regarding team names hasn't been followed (even though he made it twice).
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby carnasaur9 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:04 pm

Dowling Guards:


mountainboy965; carnasaur9


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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby carnasaur9 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:39 pm

I and my teammate decided to join this tourney because the map is fun, and the concept seems fun, FOR A GAME!

However, after reading the posts in this thread one major, massive misunderstanding MUST be addressed, as it will, or at least should, rectify the entire situation.

The argument is, as I understand it, that such a thread is racist and bigoted, based on the assumption that the American Civil War was fought to eliminate slavery. This assumption is erred.

Speaking as an individual with a master's degree in American History, I assure you all that the root cause of the civil war was not slavery, it was in fact, an issue of states' rights. At the heart of the issue was a state's right to succeed from the Union. Among smaller states' rights issues was whether or not a state had the right to allow slavery, but it was a minor issue.

The abolitionists used southern slavery to incite ignorant yankees to take arms in the fight, while if fact, the plight of northern 'indentured servants' was much worse than what any slave experienced on a southern plantation. Uncle Tom's Cabin, written by a woman who reportedly toured the south before writing her novel, was a work of complete fiction. It was no closer to the truth of the state of affairs in the South than Lord of the Flies is to being a true story of juvenile survival on a deserted island. The facts that Harriet Beecher Stowe was an avid abolitionist and that her 'tour of the south' never went any further south than North Carolina speak volumes as to the accuracy of her report. When she met President Lincoln and he met her with the phrase, "So your the lady who started this war", he was NOT complementing her, as so many believe.

All this being said, yes, slavery was evil. However, members of every race known to man have been slaves at some time in world history. And, let us not forget the fact that it was African tribes who sold africans to white men for the slave trade. Further, let's please pay attention to the fact that after the civil war was concluded, and as a result, slavery abolished in the United States, yankees resisted allowing blacks to settle in the north much more violently than what was experienced in the south.

In summary, the Civil War was not fought over slavery. This is a fact. Therefore, to claim a game based on the Civil War is racist and bigoted is ludicrous. While I am not fond of the team name, Slave Owners for personal reasons, I do not attempt to force my will on other members of the community.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby colton24 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:15 pm

FYI i didnt see any of this in another thread that was completed a year ago and your in
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby mountainboy965 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:19 pm

I am enlisting in the Confederacy, along with team-member Carnasaur9. Please add me to the list.

BTW, I would also like to weigh my opinion.

First off, I would like to say that I am related to Abraham Lincoln. I am a direct descendant of his second cousin, which means they both had the same Great-Grand-daddy. Having said that, I've done quite a bit of extensive research on the 16th President, and have learned many things that make me dislike him very much (For example, the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to southern states, not the northern states. What most people don't realize is that when the Emancipation Proclamation was proclaimed, the South was still independent of the North, which means it did absolutely nothing. If Lincoln really wanted to make a difference, he would've made it so that the Proclamation applied to the northern states too. He also had an elaborate plan to transport all African-Americans to another country, since he felt that they were inferior beings. All this is documented history and information, and you may look it up to verify it.)

Having said that, the War was indeed fought for right of the states to succeed. Before the war started, several states in New England even thought about succeeding from the union. In fact, before Lincoln came along, every assumed that states had the right to peacefully succeed (New York City even thought about succeeding). In the end, the Civil War was the most costliest and bloody battle in our history, which saddens me. Good did come from the Civil War, but a lot of bad came from it too, including the Jim Crows laws and many other racist things as a result of the aftermath of the war. I truly believe that if the war didn't happen, such racist laws wouldn't of made it to the books or the courtrooms. Instead, I believe that America would've followed England's example (and every other country in the world. America is the only country in the world where slavery was settled through a war), and abolished slavery and racism peacefully.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [4/32]

Postby colton24 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:25 pm

im talking to abes Great-Grand-son damn now that is COOL 8-) im honored :cry:
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [4/32]

Postby mountainboy965 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:34 pm

lol

No, I'm not his great-grandson. What I said was that "I'm a direct descendant of his second cousin."

Abe Lincoln and my ancestor had the same great-granddaddy... I hope that makes sense. :)

PS, I'm glad you're honored though. :D
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [3/32]

Postby alster on Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:05 am

carnasaur9 wrote:I and my teammate decided to join this tourney because the map is fun, and the concept seems fun, FOR A GAME!


Oh. Me and Mike joined the tourney to kick som Billy Yank but... :D
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [4/32]

Postby dshedd on Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:47 am

That's "Billy Yank Butt."

This is furthermore hillarious, because most people that have an active interest in the civil war always end up sympathyzing with the South and their loveable characters: Lee, Stonewall, Longstreet and JEB Stuart. Whereas the Union Generals were all less worthy people to praise. Grant was a known drunk, Sherman burned down Atlanta... and none of the others could ever get anything done despite huge troop and supply advantages...

I wonder how long before a Yankee team comes up.

"The night they tore ol' dixie down..."

We're joining up.
dshedd, absolute - Rebel Yell - Confederacy

And more opinionated crap:
You can say State's Rights all you want, and its a true statement - but, seriously. Get real. I too have a degree in US History. Bleeding Kansas? Harper's Ferry? Missouri Compromise? Dred Scott? The expansion of non-slave states into the federal government undermining the Southern Slave owning state interests? Yes it is true that all these events have to do with State's Rights. What's the other thing they all have to do with? Slavery. While I agree that the Civil War was fought over states' rights - people sound really freaking pompous when they say that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.

And with regard to the Emancipation Proclamation - Lincoln had no real intent to use that as a tool to eliminate slavery. It was mostly an act done to prevent European countries (that had already abolished slavery) from backing the confederacy. It certainly was not the great and wonderful thing that everybody thinks about - it was a foreign policy tactic to prevent the South from getting allies. If it seemed like the North was making it a moral fight, then the Europeans would not join the confederacy. And he therefore didn't free slaves in the north in order to prevent losing support from the Union states that still held slaves, since slavery at the time was a STATE'S RIGHT - but, that was largely irrelevent being that only 4 border states (MO, KY, MD, and DE) in the north still permitted slavery at the time, and MD and DE had extremely FEW slaves.

Lincoln even reinslaved freed people in Kentucky after Union soldiers refused to fight when they were freeing all the slaves in Kentucky... So, this is all good food for thought. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. " ~ Abraham Lincoln.

However great this history lesson/debate is --- all this is irrelevant because the debate is about the racist nature of the confederate flag- not about what the civil war was fought over. And the rascist association of the confederate flag came about in the years AFTER the civil war. It became a racsist symbol during the era of Jim Crow. During the civil rights movement - when people were lynched and hung up with confederate flags - The flags rascist association has little to do with when and why the civil war was being fought. To a civil war junkie - the confederate flag is a symbol of the confederacy, of state's rights. BUT to many (if not most) people it is a symbol of Jim Crow, lynching, and racism. It is certainly understandable why it can be viewed as a symbol of rascism - it was and is quite often used in that way.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [4/32]

Postby colton24 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:52 am

lol another confed.
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yeah when will someone come to defend the union?
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [5/32]

Postby carnasaur9 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:28 pm

Shedd,
I realize you are highly intelligent, highly educated, and very important. But, please, if u can spare a moment, reread my post.
I never said the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery. I did, In fact, acknowledge that slavery was a minor issue. I did not go into a week long diatribe on all the issues and compromises involved, as they did not pertain to the issue.
I would absolutely love to get together and discuss history with you sometime, in another venue. If you enjoy history as you claim, you should be interested in the fact that the two sides who fought the American Civil War were the same two sides (beliefs, lifestyles, etc.) that fought the War of the Roses in England, several hundred years earlier. It is a fascinating study, actually.

Back to the point, one also sounds arrogant, and ignorant, when he/she purposely misquotes or misrepresents the statements of another.
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Re: Rebs vs Yankees [5/32]

Postby dshedd on Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:16 pm

Well, as long as you realize that I'm highly intelligent and very important, then I think I've made my point. :geek: :D 8-[

Didn't mean to offend you, I was just enjoying the argument. It just rubbed me wrong with your "I have a master's degree in American History," remark. No need to qualify your intelligent statement with a degree, ya know? So, anyways, I am sorry that I misquoted you, I wasn't being fair at the time. You make great points and I am appreciative of the conversation in this forum or in any venue. Good luck in the tournament, if it ever begins (it won't, we've scared everybody away)...
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