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D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

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Re: D-DAY... and other map improvement ideas...

Postby gdeangel on Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:10 am

timthetuneman wrote:Repeating the obvious...

1- Reduce total number of territories by 2... This will lessen the 1st players advantage...
2- Eliminate negative armies... and instead... give a bonus army for holding plane and parachute...
3- Do not allow the first player on ANY MAP to collect a bonus on his very first turn...

Think about it... you join a game and go second... the other guy already has a bonus... he gets TEN ARMIES on his first turn and takes say 4 territories from you... you only get SIX ARMIES on your first turn... plus... you have a NEGATIVE ARMY... so you really only get FIVE ARMIES... GAME OVER...!!!!!!

PLEASE FIX THESE OBVIOUS PROBLEMS THAT HAVE SUCH SIMPLE SOLUTIONS...!!!!


Concur on point 3. This is so blatantly poor planning by the map maker. I sick of how little thought goes into making 1v1 gameplay balanced. Here's a game where the other guy had a 14 bonus by the second round. Game 1948882 In maps where average bonsues are 2, even 3, and not overlapping, it makes not that big a deal. But on this map it's a major problem.

Point 1, suck it up. Point 2... that negative bonus part never made sense, but I still liked it because it's different. You should be able to bombard the parachute from the artillery or something, so you can get out of the negative bonus. Otherwise it is a little ridiculous.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:47 am

I'm not sure whether 1v1 games were available when this map was made?

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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:57 am

Long ago I suggested that either the 2 parachutes or the 2 planes start neutral, which solves both the starting territory count and the possibility of having a -1 on the drop.

This would however mean that there would be a "significant" number of neutrals, which has generally been seen as a "bad thing" - see fuller discussion of this her: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=34210
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:49 pm

I concur that an argument could be made for the parachutes to start neutral... also, and I know this has been brought up, but it's worth recapping, a further argument could be made to convert the artilleries to bombard-only (and in compensation for their reduced powers, perhaps given one more terit each that they can reach).
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby gdeangel on Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:24 am

Being able to bomb the parachutes gets you to the same place as starting them neutral, with a little more variability to the game.

If you want to add a "realism" factor, rather than turn after turn negative bonus, if you were to start them neutral, then it would be cool to also make the parachutes revert back to like a +3 neutral at the start of the players turn, like in some of the newer maps. That would do away with the "negative combo bonus, but keep the same idea about deterring the parachets attack to the rear. It also fits the map theme, cause you can't hang around in mid air in the parachute without getting picked off. Parachute has to land, right?
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:16 am

gdeangel wrote:If you want to add a "realism" factor, rather than turn after turn negative bonus, if you were to start them neutral, then it would be cool to also make the parachutes revert back to like a +3 neutral at the start of the players turn, like in some of the newer maps. That would do away with the "negative combo bonus, but keep the same idea about deterring the parachets attack to the rear. It also fits the map theme, cause you can't hang around in mid air in the parachute without getting picked off. Parachute has to land, right?


That ain't a half-bad idea.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:08 am

Killer Neutrals also start neutral too - so that would also bring the territory count down by 2 as well.

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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:05 pm

gdeangel wrote:Being able to bomb the parachutes gets you to the same place as starting them neutral, with a little more variability to the game.

If you want to add a "realism" factor, rather than turn after turn negative bonus, if you were to start them neutral, then it would be cool to also make the parachutes revert back to like a +3 neutral at the start of the players turn, like in some of the newer maps. That would do away with the "negative combo bonus, but keep the same idea about deterring the parachets attack to the rear. It also fits the map theme, cause you can't hang around in mid air in the parachute without getting picked off. Parachute has to land, right?


i'm fine with this, will require a minor legend change. I will put in on my list.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:11 pm

mibi wrote:
gdeangel wrote:Being able to bomb the parachutes gets you to the same place as starting them neutral, with a little more variability to the game.

If you want to add a "realism" factor, rather than turn after turn negative bonus, if you were to start them neutral, then it would be cool to also make the parachutes revert back to like a +3 neutral at the start of the players turn, like in some of the newer maps. That would do away with the "negative combo bonus, but keep the same idea about deterring the parachets attack to the rear. It also fits the map theme, cause you can't hang around in mid air in the parachute without getting picked off. Parachute has to land, right?


i'm fine with this, will require a minor legend change. I will put in on my list.


cool - I think I suggested the basic version of that (before killer neutrals existed) at least 10 months ago!
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby tenio on Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:05 pm

lol was just gonna ask the reasoning behind the "-1"
plane-parachute thing

if parachute reverts to neautral after every round and -1 is removed i think it would serve the same purpose
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D-Day: Omaha Beach!

Postby Othimos on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:17 am

D-Day: Omaha Beach! Map in need of bonus change.

For some strange reason on this map all areas have a bonus except -- 21st german panzers area, 352nd german infantry area and 916th german grenadiers area, i don't know if this was ment when the map was made or not but it still needs changing in my opinion as it does give unfair advantage for other areas and this is the first map i have come across with no bonus for holding an entire region/area.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach!

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:19 am

There are plenty of maps like that. It changes gameplay around. It is not something that needs to be fixed.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach!

Postby Othimos on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:23 am

Thanks, as said first map i've come across personally like this with no bonuses for holding a region, still seems a bit strange lol.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby Reps89 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:27 pm

Are the planes part of the boats? Do you need them for the bonus?
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:27 pm

Reps89 wrote:Are the planes part of the boats? Do you need them for the bonus?

No.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby jman10012 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:53 pm

Infact im confused about the planes. Why on Earth is it bad to hold your LZ and your aircraft? Wouldnt landing your troops and taking the required target be good for a invasion? It makes no sense why its -1 troop for holding the plane and its parachute closest to it.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby alster on Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:56 pm

Bug?

See: Game 6521118

2010-02-24 19:50:59 - alstergren reinforced Easy Beach 1 with 2 troops from 21st Artillery 3


Ok, fine. I can bombard the beach, but why should I be able to reinforce from artillery to beach (I assume that I can attack then move forward as well... never tried it though since I find that bombardment has limited purpose on this map).
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:01 pm

Well, the legend says "artillery can attack nearest 2 targets", it doesn't say anything about bombardment...

It seems a bit odd to me too, but I think it's intended to be that way.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:05 pm

The bombardments on this map are actually one-way attacks, and not bombardments in the official CC sense of the word... primarily because this map was put out before bombardments were added to the XML arsenal....

I supposed it wouldn;t be too much to adjust the XML to make them bombardments, but it's more-or-less up to mibi...
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:41 pm

This is one of my favorite maps, (even if mibi is the author) lol.
There are a few things about it that are indeed a bit off, like the fact that it is upside down with north to the south. I do not object to not placing north to the top, if there is a reason. However, the reason here escapes me. Also the thing about the -1 for holding the plane and parachute is quite odd. Same with the artillery bombardments. As mr B stated, they are NOT really bombardments at all. They are simply one way attacks.

What I really love about this map is, it is complicated, in that a lot of the names are very similar. It took me a few games before I memorized them, and I still make a mistake now and then with deployments and attacks, but not often. which usually gives me the upper hand against someone that is not as familiar with the map.

The graphics are NOT very good, but like I said, I love it for the complexity, and for the points that I make on it. ;)
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby alster on Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:38 pm

MrBenn wrote:The bombardments on this map are actually one-way attacks, and not bombardments in the official CC sense of the word... primarily because this map was put out before bombardments were added to the XML arsenal....

I supposed it wouldn;t be too much to adjust the XML to make them bombardments, but it's more-or-less up to mibi...


Ah... I see. Guess I just have gotten used to thinking of bombardments. Sorry about that. Guess that one-way attacks was the shit back then when innovating the maps! :D
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby Coleman on Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:02 pm

I haven't really committed myself to redesigning this map unless I am forced to, if mibi wants to he might have a fight on his hands. Most of the arguments I see I am willing to attempt to refute.

This map is really unbalanced in 1v1, first turn wins, starting with the -1 bonus is death sentence, ect ect.


To begin with this map was created before 1v1 games. We never had to consider balancing for them and I would like to believe a grandfather clause should be in effect here. That said I wouldn't hate it if there were 2 less random German territories although I can't see how we would do it without making the map look really really weird.

WTF, attacks instead of bombardments? That makes no thematic sense.


Also while we are on the subject of a grandfather clause, there were no bombardments when this map was made. It was not in the xml. Along with starting neutrals, they were not in the xml. Unfortunately we love the way this plays too much to be willing to change it to bombardments unless the foundry forces us to. In addition I am concerned that people stuck with artillery would never be able to win because they lack a way to attack ship bonuses if it were bombardments. With the current system someone with an artillery bonus can make a charge against a ship to break a bonus.

lol noob, you made north and south wrong.


In response to the top vs bottom arguments that constantly come up, we never put a compass on the map. North is on the bottom and south is on the top. We wanted to create the feeling you were storming the beach and when the beach was on the bottom the feeling was that you were defending the beach. Thus it put the flavor of the map off. I would be willing to have an upside down compass on the map to show that north is in fact the bottom and south is the top but I don't think it would fit anywhere. mibi didn't waste any of the space available to him under the size constraints so a compass would have to be really small and would probably just look goofy.

Really though, that -1 bonus is punishing, why is it there?


The -1 bonus came about because the ships had too much of an advantage otherwise. Without that -1 bonus the people with the ships had a very high chance of always winning and removing the flyovers made for very long games so that was the compromise.

So another words you are a stubborn old goat and won't fix anything.


Actually, there are 2 problems I see that have merit in my eyes, first, that the territory count is very bad for 1v1 games and second that the -1 bonus is equally bad if you get it in a 1v1 game. To fix these two problems simultaneously all I would need to do is make both planes start with 3 neutral. This would in effect decrease the territory count by 2 and it would stop people from starting with the -1 bonus in 1v1 without requiring us to do any drastic redesigns to the map.

If the cartos feel this is a positive change I'll adjust the xml and send it to whomever receives xml updates now a days.
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:03 pm

I think the map plays fine as it is. The Graphics suck, so if you are going to change anything, that is where i would start. ;)
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby the.killing.44 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:07 pm

porkenbeans wrote: :cry:
















;)
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Re: D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:19 pm

porkenbeans wrote:What I really love about this map is, it is complicated, in that a lot of the names are very similar. It took me a few games before I memorized them, and I still make a mistake now and then with deployments and attacks, but not often. which usually gives me the upper hand against someone that is not as familiar with the map.


It doesn't give you an advantage if they are using clickies, of course
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