Conquer Club

Quad Cities Map [Quenched]

Care to peruse completed maps? Take a stroll through the Atlas.

Moderator: Cartographers

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby ender516 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:54 pm

tobinov wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
tobinov wrote:When will the map be available to play?

Soon as lack uploads the files. Should be this week sometime, I assume.

OK - I'll admit that I'm impatient: how long can it take to upload files, eh?! :)

Ask DiM, he's watching the clock too.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ender516
 
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby Orwell on Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:56 pm

ender516 wrote:
tobinov wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
tobinov wrote:When will the map be available to play?

Soon as lack uploads the files. Should be this week sometime, I assume.

OK - I'll admit that I'm impatient: how long can it take to upload files, eh?! :)

Ask DiM, he's watching the clock too.

It's available as of today!
:)
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett, Worstward Ho
User avatar
Corporal Orwell
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:35 pm

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby ironsij0287 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:54 pm

OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby Gilligan on Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:56 am

ironsij0287 wrote:OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.


You should also mention that it is in the form of an autodeploy.
Image
User avatar
Captain Gilligan
 
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 4:59 pm
Location: Providence, RI

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby ironsij0287 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:55 am

Gilligan wrote:
ironsij0287 wrote:OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.


You should also mention that it is in the form of an autodeploy.


Yeah it appears that the autodeploy is working but not mentioned in the legend. I will fix that ASAP.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby ironsij0287 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:19 am

OK here are the new files.

Small Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3small.jpg
Click image to enlarge.
image


Large Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3large.jpg
Click image to enlarge.
image


Revised XML:
quadcities.xml
(28.69 KiB) Downloaded 636 times
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [29 Aug 2011] v7.03.2 pg. 1&27

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:45 am

Gilligan wrote:
ironsij0287 wrote:OK so I noticed something already that I overlooked. My original gameplay intentions were to have Arsenal always begin as a neutral 3 that becomes an autodeploy +1 when held. Right now a player could hold it on the initial drop and have a +1 troop bonus.


You should also mention that it is in the form of an autodeploy.

Just about to post those same things! Thanks for the quick fix, ironsij, though perhaps you should consider lowering Arsenal's neutrals to 2, as I don't really see it coming into play too much otherwise (most players would rather spend troops killing opposing troops rather than neutrals, and the +1 auto-deploy isn't much compensation).

-Sully
User avatar
Corporal Victor Sullivan
 
Posts: 6010
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:17 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby pamoa on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:03 pm

in 1vs1 right now the gameplay is very unbalanced
northern towns and coal city are way too easy to take and hold for the first player
they must both be coded as starting position so no one can have 2 or 3 of them at drop

edit
and andalusia
De gueules Ć  la tour d'argent ouverte, crĆ©nelĆ©e de trois piĆØces, sommĆ©e d'un donjon ajourĆ©, crĆ©nelĆ© de deux piĆØces
Gules an open tower silver, crenellated three parts, topped by a apertured turret, crenellated two parts
User avatar
Cadet pamoa
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:18 am
Location: Confederatio Helvetica

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:25 pm

Oh, dear. It's hard to believe no one picked up on that earlier. Zones with 3 regions are routinely broken up by neutrals or starting positions. I guess someone should have run this through the calculator.

EDIT: Okay, I have run this through MrBenn's calculator. If three starting positions of 3 regions each are created, spread over the those zones (Andalusia, Northern Towns, and Coal Valley), then the chance of dropping a bonus on one of those is eliminated. However, it does mean that in the 1v1 case, the two players each start with 24 regions. 70 minus 1 (for Arsenal) minus the nine regions in starting positions makes 60 basic regions in the pot, but with each player getting one starting position containing 3 regions, the 3 regions in the unused starting position also go into the pot, for a total of 63 to be divided three ways (red, green and neutral). So red gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), green gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 63/3 (1 + 21 = 22). 24 + 24 + 22 = 70, so all present and accounted for.

Having players start with 24 regions is bad. The first player gets eight troops to deploy, and if he takes one from the second player, that player only gets seven troops on his turn.

This can be corrected by making one region in each starting position an underlying neutral, so that in a 1v1, when the third starting position is not given to either player, only two regions go into the pot for distribution, with the underlying neutral going directly to the neutral player. With 62 in the pot, red gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), green gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 1 (underlying neutral) plus 62/3 (20) plus the remainder of the pot (62 modulo 3 = 2) (1 + 1 + 20 + 2 = 24). 23 + 23 + 24 = 70.

In a 1v1v1 game, everyone gets one starting position consisting of three regions, and 60/3 or 20 from the pot. Arsenal remains the sole neutral. With four or more players, the starting positions are ignored, and the board always start with at least Arsenal and the (fixed) underlying neutrals as neutrals. The remaining 66 regions are split as evenly as possible, with the leftovers also becoming neutrals. So in a 4 player game, each player starts with 16 regions, and two more random neutrals join the fixed four. In a 5 player game, each starts with 13, and one random neutral emerges. In a 6 player game, each starts with 11 regions, and no extra neutral is needed. In a 7 player game, each starts with 9, and three extra neutrals appear. Finally in an 8 player game, each starts with 8 and two extra neutrals appear.

This seems like a clean solution. Going forward with this, a decision is required regarding which regions will be the underlying neutrals and how the starting positions will be grouped (one region from each of the small zones should go into each position: are some more favourable than others? what is a fair mix?)
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ender516
 
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ironsij0287 on Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:48 am

ender516 wrote:Oh, dear. It's hard to believe no one picked up on that earlier. Zones with 3 regions are routinely broken up by neutrals or starting positions. I guess someone should have run this through the calculator.

EDIT: Okay, I have run this through MrBenn's calculator. If three starting positions of 3 regions each are created, spread over the those zones (Andalusia, Northern Towns, and Coal Valley), then the chance of dropping a bonus on one of those is eliminated. However, it does mean that in the 1v1 case, the two players each start with 24 regions. 70 minus 1 (for Arsenal) minus the nine regions in starting positions makes 60 basic regions in the pot, but with each player getting one starting position containing 3 regions, the 3 regions in the unused starting position also go into the pot, for a total of 63 to be divided three ways (red, green and neutral). So red gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), green gets 3 plus 63/3 (3 + 21 = 24), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 63/3 (1 + 21 = 22). 24 + 24 + 22 = 70, so all present and accounted for.

Having players start with 24 regions is bad. The first player gets eight troops to deploy, and if he takes one from the second player, that player only gets seven troops on his turn.

This can be corrected by making one region in each starting position an underlying neutral, so that in a 1v1, when the third starting position is not given to either player, only two regions go into the pot for distribution, with the underlying neutral going directly to the neutral player. With 62 in the pot, red gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), green gets 3 plus 62/3 (3 + 20 = 23), and neutral gets 1 (Arsenal) plus 1 (underlying neutral) plus 62/3 (20) plus the remainder of the pot (62 modulo 3 = 2) (1 + 1 + 20 + 2 = 24). 23 + 23 + 24 = 70.

In a 1v1v1 game, everyone gets one starting position consisting of three regions, and 60/3 or 20 from the pot. Arsenal remains the sole neutral. With four or more players, the starting positions are ignored, and the board always start with at least Arsenal and the (fixed) underlying neutrals as neutrals. The remaining 66 regions are split as evenly as possible, with the leftovers also becoming neutrals. So in a 4 player game, each player starts with 16 regions, and two more random neutrals join the fixed four. In a 5 player game, each starts with 13, and one random neutral emerges. In a 6 player game, each starts with 11 regions, and no extra neutral is needed. In a 7 player game, each starts with 9, and three extra neutrals appear. Finally in an 8 player game, each starts with 8 and two extra neutrals appear.

This seems like a clean solution. Going forward with this, a decision is required regarding which regions will be the underlying neutrals and how the starting positions will be grouped (one region from each of the small zones should go into each position: are some more favourable than others? what is a fair mix?)


OK, I get what you're saying. All the numbers made my head spin a little. :?

I'm open for suggestions on what I need to do to fix this. I made need some assistance with how to code everything in the XML.

Also what Sully said about making Arsenal a Neutral 2 instead of 3. I'm fine with that, but does anyone else have any thoughts about it?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:33 am

Neutral 2's are nice because they allow the region to get into the game a little faster, or so I think, from my most recent experience with some neutrals on the Fractured China map.


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class AndyDufresne
 
Posts: 24919
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:47 pm

I was checking the new files to send them to lackattack when i noticed there're few things to fix:

Big Version: Move Vandruff coords a bit to left (or the name to right) , see the spoiler for reference
show: big version

Small version: St. Ambros a bit to left, Vandruff a bit to left, Duck creek a bit to left (888 overlap Devil's glen), Green valley a bit to left and probably also southpark could be moved a bit to left. Finally elmore could go a bit to left.
show: small version


Be careful when you change coords (always doble heck if you're going to change the correct value before doing it) because it's easy to mess up your xml file ;)

Nobodies
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thenobodies80
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Location: Milan

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby dowian2 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:44 am

Sometimes drops are unfair. There's a +1 for the throne in Siege!, a +2 for the bowler in cricket, etc... I kind of like the map as it plays now. Starting with 23 regions in a 2/3-man game, 17 in a 4-man, 14 in a 5-man, 11 in a 6-man... it works. Adding a bunch of neutrals will make this map less fair due to region count.
If you want to play a game where luck isn't a factor, go play chess.

High score: 3074, #67
High rank: Brigadier
Major dowian2
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:18 pm

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby Swimmerdude99 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Game 9761592

Why do I not get a bonus for arsenal? How do you get the bonus?
Image
Offsite to 12/31/2023. Reach out to TheSpaceCowboy to reach me
User avatar
Major Swimmerdude99
 
Posts: 2371
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:07 pm
Location: North Carolina
2435

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:29 pm

It's an auto-deploy. ironsij fixed it for the next version.

-Sully
User avatar
Corporal Victor Sullivan
 
Posts: 6010
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:17 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby Lord and Master on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:26 pm

Game 976041
It's acting strange on troops due count; Opponent holds "Eastern" so should get +2, I hold "Arsenal" so should get +1, BUT I'm getting no extra & he's getting +3.
Help! Cheers! :)
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant Lord and Master
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:38 pm
Location: Wherever

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:38 pm

Lord+Master wrote:Game 976041
It's acting strange on troops due count; Opponent holds "Eastern" so should get +2, I hold "Arsenal" so should get +1, BUT I'm getting no extra & he's getting +3.
Help! Cheers! :)


You're right the bonus of Eastern Towns is wrong. ironsij0287 could you please fix also this?
Thanks :)
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thenobodies80
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Location: Milan

Re: Quad Cities Map [14 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ender516 on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:45 pm

That was actually Game 9760411. The one listed by Lord+Master is about four years old.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ender516
 
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ironsij0287 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:33 am

Version 7.3.3

Small Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3small.jpg
Click image to enlarge.
image


Large Map:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/ ... 3large.jpg
Click image to enlarge.
image


Revised XML:
download/file.php?id=271

Fixes in this version.
    -Fixed legend to show that Arsenal is a +1 Autodeploy
    -Fixed XML so Arsenal starts game as neutral 2
    -Fixed XML so Eastern Towns is correctly worth 2 troops instead of 3
    -Fixed XML number coordinates where "888" was not properly aligned
    -Added missing bridge between Sunset and Big Island
Last edited by ironsij0287 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:14 pm

Two things:
  1. Eastern Towns could stand to be increased to +3, with 3 borders and 5 territories - certainly harder to nab in comparison to Northern Towns.
  2. The bridge that connects Big Island and Sunset is missing! I guess it was lost in translation somewhere along the line.
-Sully
User avatar
Corporal Victor Sullivan
 
Posts: 6010
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:17 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby Peter Gibbons on Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:57 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:[*]The bridge that connects Big Island and Sunset is missing! I guess it was lost in translation somewhere along the line.
-Sully

Was just coming in to say the same thing. Though I actually assumed it was an XML mistake and that there wasn't supposed to be a bridge at all. Might play more interestingly without one because it splits that bonus. Something to consider.

Aside from that, I love this map. Up there with Vancouver and Charleston as really great city maps.
User avatar
Major Peter Gibbons
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:21 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ironsij0287 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:51 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:Two things:
  1. Eastern Towns could stand to be increased to +3, with 3 borders and 5 territories - certainly harder to nab in comparison to Northern Towns.
  2. The bridge that connects Big Island and Sunset is missing! I guess it was lost in translation somewhere along the line.
-Sully


Holy crap, I completely left off a bridge! :oops:
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ironsij0287 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:07 am

There I added it to my latest map.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:23 pm

I'm going to send the files to lackattack in any case, in this way the map will play correctly (bonus and autodeploy)

But must be said you added the bridge in the wrong way, in fact the river can't go in two directions in the same time!
Fix it when you can.

Nobodies
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thenobodies80
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Location: Milan

Re: Quad Cities Map [19 Sep 2011] v7.03.3 BETA

Postby ironsij0287 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:57 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I'm going to send the files to lackattack in any case, in this way the map will play correctly (bonus and autodeploy)

But must be said you added the bridge in the wrong way, in fact the river can't go in two directions in the same time!
Fix it when you can.

Nobodies

#-o
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ironsij0287
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:30 pm
Location: Dubuque

PreviousNext

Return to The Atlas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users