Occupy Wall Street: Support or Oppose? (OWS vs. Nativity)

[Lootifer]

97 workers in ONE cafe?!

Also: Single data point. Statistics say hi!

[BigBallinStalin]

97 workers in ONE cafe?!

Also: Single data point. Statistics say hi!

Well, obviously if you increase inputs, you'll increase outputs.

[Lootifer]

97 workers in ONE cafe?!

Also: Single data point. Statistics say hi!

Well, obviously if you increase inputs, you'll increase outputs.

I musta slept in during that class...

[kentington]

Ok. I rarely visit CC anymore, but when I do it is to read up on political points. It seems most of you have done more research than I have time to do. ( Not a bad thing, it takes me a long time to research and even still I wonder how accurate what I read is. Then I have to figure out how to understand what I just researched. )
So, every time some big stuff occurs I come back over here and read because all of you keep it pretty peaceable and you call each other on BS. I see myself sharing a lot of Scotty's views.
Now the reason for my post.

If OWS was able to clarify their goal and actually get together as one mind, with an idea 99% could get behind, then how would they actually go about making the change?

I am not being sarcastic. I just don't understand how they can change something by standing around. The politicians are getting paid bribes and have their own agendas that keep them from having to worry about what voters actually think. Also, how does the change occur, just overthrow the government with a mass of people, then who is the leader? How is the leader chosen and how do things get balanced? Do they just take down the government and start from scratch or try to use the constitution?

I know those are a lot of questions, but I just don't see the change actually happening without big repercussions.

[BigBallinStalin]

(1) If OWS was able to clarify their goal and actually get together as one mind, with an idea 99% could get behind, then how would they actually go about making the change?

(2) I am not being sarcastic. I just don't understand how they can change something by standing around. The politicians are getting paid bribes and have their own agendas that keep them from having to worry about what voters actually think. Also, how does the change occur, just overthrow the government with a mass of people, then who is the leader? How is the leader chosen and how do things get balanced? Do they just take down the government and start from scratch or try to use the constitution?

I know those are a lot of questions, but I just don't see the change actually happening without big repercussions.

(1) They can't because they're composed of many diverse individuals with various stances.

(2) OWS and the other occupy movements have created (for many) the opportunity to engage in debate about the problems with this country. I view that as beneficial toward reforming this country. In short, it opens up the dialogue, so who knows where it'll go from there.

The government can't be overthrown because public opinion isn't dissatisfied enough to do so, plus the state will imprison and/or kill you for doing so. If the movement reaches a critical mass, that may become a real possibility. Until then, it's just a discussion on how to improve the status quo.

[kentington]

(1) If OWS was able to clarify their goal and actually get together as one mind, with an idea 99% could get behind, then how would they actually go about making the change?

(2) I am not being sarcastic. I just don't understand how they can change something by standing around. The politicians are getting paid bribes and have their own agendas that keep them from having to worry about what voters actually think. Also, how does the change occur, just overthrow the government with a mass of people, then who is the leader? How is the leader chosen and how do things get balanced? Do they just take down the government and start from scratch or try to use the constitution?

I know those are a lot of questions, but I just don't see the change actually happening without big repercussions.

(1) They can't because they're composed of many diverse individuals with various stances.

(2) OWS and the other occupy movements have created (for many) the opportunity to engage in debate about the problems with this country. I view that as beneficial toward reforming this country. In short, it opens up the dialogue, so who knows where it'll go from there.

The government can't be overthrown because public opinion isn't dissatisfied enough to do so, plus the state will imprison and/or kill you for doing so. If the movement reaches a critical mass, that may become a real possibility. Until then, it's just a discussion on how to improve the status quo.

So, through the talks they are hoping for reform through the politicians fearing a loss of votes? Or they just want to be heard, get the word to all the other Americans and try to unite with them? Maybe a little of both.

I don't think they are dissatisfied enough to do anything that crazy yet. But if they keep getting poked and don't have anyway to get what they want, then I don't see anything pleasant happening. I hope things are able to calm down, while they still have a chance to be heard.

[BigBallinStalin]

(1) If OWS was able to clarify their goal and actually get together as one mind, with an idea 99% could get behind, then how would they actually go about making the change?

(2) I am not being sarcastic. I just don't understand how they can change something by standing around. The politicians are getting paid bribes and have their own agendas that keep them from having to worry about what voters actually think. Also, how does the change occur, just overthrow the government with a mass of people, then who is the leader? How is the leader chosen and how do things get balanced? Do they just take down the government and start from scratch or try to use the constitution?

I know those are a lot of questions, but I just don't see the change actually happening without big repercussions.

(1) They can't because they're composed of many diverse individuals with various stances.

(2) OWS and the other occupy movements have created (for many) the opportunity to engage in debate about the problems with this country. I view that as beneficial toward reforming this country. In short, it opens up the dialogue, so who knows where it'll go from there.

The government can't be overthrown because public opinion isn't dissatisfied enough to do so, plus the state will imprison and/or kill you for doing so. If the movement reaches a critical mass, that may become a real possibility. Until then, it's just a discussion on how to improve the status quo.

So, through the talks they are hoping for reform through the politicians fearing a loss of votes? Or they just want to be heard, get the word to all the other Americans and try to unite with them? Maybe a little of both.

I don't think they are dissatisfied enough to do anything that crazy yet. But if they keep getting poked and don't have anyway to get what they want, then I don't see anything pleasant happening. I hope things are able to calm down, while they still have a chance to be heard.

I can't say what "they" hope for because there isn't one "they." It's various groups comprised of various individuals with their different agendas, so it's a bit of both + other stuff.

OWS itself is just a forum for the discussion of ideas. There's no clear goal, but it has arguably opened the realm of debate into places beyond Wall Street... Mainstream media tends to erect straw man fallacies of it and misses the opportunity to engage in substantive criticism (again). Phatscotty has fallen to that drum-line. Other than that, it's a reflection of the US. It's similar to what we debate here on this forum.

[Phatscotty]

Ok. I rarely visit CC anymore, but when I do it is to read up on political points. It seems most of you have done more research than I have time to do. ( Not a bad thing, it takes me a long time to research and even still I wonder how accurate what I read is. Then I have to figure out how to understand what I just researched. )
So, every time some big stuff occurs I come back over here and read because all of you keep it pretty peaceable and you call each other on BS. I see myself sharing a lot of Scotty's views.
Now the reason for my post.

If OWS was able to clarify their goal and actually get together as one mind, with an idea 99% could get behind, then how would they actually go about making the change?

I am not being sarcastic. I just don't understand how they can change something by standing around. The politicians are getting paid bribes and have their own agendas that keep them from having to worry about what voters actually think. Also, how does the change occur, just overthrow the government with a mass of people, then who is the leader? How is the leader chosen and how do things get balanced? Do they just take down the government and start from scratch or try to use the constitution?

I know those are a lot of questions, but I just don't see the change actually happening without big repercussions.

Thanks for the plug homie.

They are doing it wrong. I will admit I admire the next level they are taking by going from a protest to an occupy, it's pretty provocative, but they could be accomplishing so much more. I see it as a huge waste, and they are acting out while Obama is prez cuz they know he will let them get away with it.

[Serbia]

The OWS movement is nothing more than ACORN re-branded. It's not the 'spontaneous' protest that people want to believe it is. It's bankrolled and organized by ACORN.

[AndyDufresne]

The OWS movement is nothing more than ACORN re-branded. It's not the 'spontaneous' protest that people want to believe it is. It's bankrolled and organized by ACORN.

Lets go get our huntin' guns. It's time to get some nuts.


--Andy

[Symmetry]

The "OWS is just ACORN" movement is just Republican Birtherism rebranded. It's not the fact based revelation that people want to believe in. It's bankrolled and organised by the Birthers.

[BigBallinStalin]

My main concern is the involvement of clandestine Tea Party Death Squads. It's impossible to spot them from the real OWS'ers.

[oVo]

If by support you mean opposing the buying of government
by the 1%ers who have more money than they can spend?
Then yes I support the occupier's position of opposition.

[AAFitz]

If you support OWS, I hope you know that this is what you will be getting:

Click image to enlarge.

So you support the corruption and corrupt practices of wall street firms which constitute fraud and created a massive financial problems. Interesting. Id think a fiscal conservative, would be all for pushing for reforms of such things. But I suppose thats what happens when one has been completely corrupted by their party lines and has completely stopped seeing the facts for what they are. Id put my shocked icon out there, but I am truly not one bit surprised.

[Serbia]

The "OWS is just ACORN" movement is just Republican Birtherism rebranded. It's not the fact based revelation that people want to believe in. It's bankrolled and organised by the Birthers.

THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY (BNP)

[Night Strike]

If you support OWS, I hope you know that this is what you will be getting:

Click image to enlarge.

So you support the corruption and corrupt practices of wall street firms which constitute fraud and created a massive financial problems. Interesting. Id think a fiscal conservative, would be all for pushing for reforms of such things. But I suppose thats what happens when one has been completely corrupted by their party lines and has completely stopped seeing the facts for what they are. Id put my shocked icon out there, but I am truly not one bit surprised.

Shows that you don't actually read my posts. I was and still am completely against the Wall Street bailouts. There were plenty of laws to regulate Wall Street, but Democrats chose to not enforce them. With the housing bubble, when President Bush stated that they were in deep trouble, Democrats like Barney Frank stated that they were on solid ground and would never collapse. In the 90s, it was the Democrats who charged lenders with being racist if they didn't loan money to high-risk individuals. The reforms need to take place within the government, not on Wall Street. The government passed the Frank-Dodd bill, which has destroyed any economic growth that would have pulled us out of this recession. Crony capitalism is NOT capitalism, and I've never supported it.

[Phatscotty]

If by support you mean opposing the buying of government
by the 1%ers who have more money than they can spend?
Then yes I support the occupier's position of opposition.

I suppose there are about 100 different meanings. Just pick the one you like best.
FYI#1 There was already an uprising against this. It's was called the Tea Party.

FYI#2 did you guys know that anyone who makes over 289,000/year is in the 1%?

[AAFitz]

If you support OWS, I hope you know that this is what you will be getting:

Click image to enlarge.

So you support the corruption and corrupt practices of wall street firms which constitute fraud and created a massive financial problems. Interesting. Id think a fiscal conservative, would be all for pushing for reforms of such things. But I suppose thats what happens when one has been completely corrupted by their party lines and has completely stopped seeing the facts for what they are. Id put my shocked icon out there, but I am truly not one bit surprised.

Shows that you don't actually read my posts. I was and still am completely against the Wall Street bailouts. There were plenty of laws to regulate Wall Street, but Democrats chose to not enforce them. With the housing bubble, when President Bush stated that they were in deep trouble, Democrats like Barney Frank stated that they were on solid ground and would never collapse. In the 90s, it was the Democrats who charged lenders with being racist if they didn't loan money to high-risk individuals. The reforms need to take place within the government, not on Wall Street. The government passed the Frank-Dodd bill, which has destroyed any economic growth that would have pulled us out of this recession. Crony capitalism is NOT capitalism, and I've never supported it.

Well then great. Its good to hear you are a supporter of OWS, because it are those criminals, the protesters are protesting, whether they know it or not.

[Night Strike]

Well then great. Its good to hear you are a supporter of OWS, because it are those criminals, the protesters are protesting, whether they know it or not.

If you don't know what you're protesting, then you're just wasting air. I'd say the vast majority of the people at OWS want to overthrow capitalism and get everything for free (to them). Very few there are protesting government bailouts.

[PLAYER57832]

The folks involved, no doubt feel they are protesting something. However, the powers that be are basically treating them the way parents treat a toddler having a tantrum... ignore them, as long as they are not creating real harm. This is what they did in the 60's, except that they waited (per their perspective) a tad too long to crack down. That mistake will not be repeated.

And... if folks really want to make a difference, they need to start buying products that support the real people who make then, preferably local, and not products that are mostly going to support stock holders and investors.

[Iliad]

Well then great. Its good to hear you are a supporter of OWS, because it are those criminals, the protesters are protesting, whether they know it or not.

If you don't know what you're protesting, then you're just wasting air. I'd say the vast majority of the people at OWS want to overthrow capitalism and get everything for free (to them). Very few there are protesting government bailouts.

Then you're an idiot who gobbled up the Fox line and asked for seconds. If you took time to investigate the movement via non-Murdoch owned media you would've realised their actual agenda.

The protester's issues isn't capitalism, or whatever the empty suit at Fox news has told you, rather it's the opposite the system where gains are privatised, and losses socialised. The OWS protests try and show that money holds far too much of a sway in politics, and that they the 99% are not represented, while the top 1% have accumulated enough wealth to completely control the system and place themselves above the law.

It is an actual populist movements so you'll have differing opinions on issues such as election reform, campaign finance reform, job bills taxation, but that kind of thing happens at truly, leaderless, populist movements: a blend of ideas all centred on a problem. Unlike a certain other "populist" movement, whose message was prepackaged and marketed by Murdoch subsidiaries.

[Lootifer]

Then you're an idiot who gobbled up the Fox line and asked for seconds. If you took time to investigate the movement via non-Murdoch owned media you would've realised their actual agenda.

The protester's issues isn't capitalism, or whatever the empty suit at Fox news has told you, rather it's the opposite the system where gains are privatised, and losses socialised. The OWS protests try and show that money holds far too much of a sway in politics, and that they the 99% are not represented, while the top 1% have accumulated enough wealth to completely control the system and place themselves above the law.

It is an actual populist movements so you'll have differing opinions on issues such as election reform, campaign finance reform, job bills taxation, but that kind of thing happens at truly, leaderless, populist movements: a blend of ideas all centred on a problem. Unlike a certain other "populist" movement, whose message was prepackaged and marketed by Murdoch subsidiaries.

A lack of democracy in the US? NO FREAKING WAY!?!?!?

(sarcasm)

[Symmetry]

The "OWS is just ACORN" movement is just Republican Birtherism rebranded. It's not the fact based revelation that people want to believe in. It's bankrolled and organised by the Birthers.

THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY (BNP)

What is it with mods accusing me of being a closet Nazi? Serbia, your name is going on my list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0V3SqxUomwk#t=48s

[Night Strike]

The protester's issues isn't capitalism, or whatever the empty suit at Fox news has told you, rather it's the opposite the system where gains are privatised, and losses socialised. The OWS protests try and show that money holds far too much of a sway in politics, and that they the 99% are not represented, while the top 1% have accumulated enough wealth to completely control the system and place themselves above the law.

So what about those videos showing people blaming the Jews for all of their economic problems? What about those polls that have been done saying that most of the people want to replace capitalism with socialism, and some want it to happen violently? What about the website that lists top things they want handed to them like a guaranteed $20 per hour, regardless of employment status? OWS is a bunch of unreasonable people who want to have everything handed to them instead of working for it.

[Symmetry]

So what about those videos showing people blaming the Jews for all of their economic problems?

Let's be fair, on this NS, you still believe the ACORN takedown was accurate, so really you're gonna believe any kind of selective video footage that fits in with what you want to see.

What about those polls that have been done saying that most of the people want to replace capitalism with socialism, and some want it to happen violently?

Kind of this and the previous part of your post suggest that you heard about these polls and videos, rather than saw them yourself, or looked at the raw unedited data without a filter. If I asked you to post those polls, would they come from Fox? As for the weasel wording- "some want it to happen violently?", you're usually a bit above that.

What about the website that lists top things they want handed to them like a guaranteed $20 per hour, regardless of employment status? OWS is a bunch of unreasonable people who want to have everything handed to them instead of working for it.

Search for it, post it, don't do the whataboutery route to pretending you have an argument.