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Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:29 am

For the purposes of the theme I'm going to take a pot shot that we're playing in Roman Catholic mythology (although mythology isn't that different between Christians, and mostly depends on the age you're in rather than which communion you're part of) and the wikipedia page on Saints says this:
The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make or create saints. Rather, it recognizes them.[27] In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven.

As you can see, they're clearly referring to a person. The paragraph on Eastern Orthodoxy even goes as far as this:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".
Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels. That shouldn't really matter, though, since people who are in heaven are by definition town aligned.

Jak, you're claiming William of York as angel? He was Archbishop and saint... A human. I kind of doubt that humans would be elevated to angelic status, but I'll accept the claim for now. Care to tell us what your role is, or is that classified information?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:18 am

aage wrote:Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels.

The archangels Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel are all also given the title of Saint. So the two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby soundman on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:26 am

aage wrote:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.

jak111 wrote:Although now that I am sort of outed as angel, who is WIlliam of York in religious text? I've heard of him but haven't fully grasped who he is supposed to be. If he is a saint/angel then I think Vio's claim is a lie, because I know I am not a human, so for her to claim a saint and say she's human seems... off.


Are you claiming William of York, Jak?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby VioIet on Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:01 pm

jonty125 wrote:
I was fairly sure you had to be dead to be a saint? :-s



It's a game, not real-life. In real life, yes, you have to be dead to be a saint. In this game, you don't.

For me to say more would be revealing my role pm too much. I would re-classify my correct alignment to be human. My character just happens to be a saint.

I do believe that humans are a third-party in this game. Some of them are aligned with angels and some of them are aligned with demons. The types of humans vary- saints, doctors, investigators, trackers, drivers, etc, etc.

My guess is that Mr. Squirrel is also a human who has investigative powers. I believe that Jak is human also. The reason he probably said angel, is because his role pm may say something like, "you win when all demon's have been eliminated." That is pure speculation- but to me, it seems that's the only reason why he would say angel.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:18 pm

soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.
I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby soundman on Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:55 pm

aage wrote:
soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.
I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby vodean on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:41 pm

angels are not saints. angels are pretty and have wings, saints smell like incense.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:18 pm

soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.
I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

I assumed "anyone" referred to humans. God is in heaven, is he a saint?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:21 pm

aage wrote:
soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.
I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

I assumed "anyone" referred to humans. God is in heaven, is he a saint?

By the way, this is escalating into a technicalities discussion and that wasn't my intention. Bottom line is, I think Jak's roleclaim is curious at the least, but I don't feel like lynching an ex-archbishop.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:39 pm

VioIet wrote:

It's a game, not real-life. In real life, yes, you have to be dead to be a saint. In this game, you don't.

For me to say more would be revealing my role pm too much. I would re-classify my correct alignment to be human. My character just happens to be a saint.

I do believe that humans are a third-party in this game. Some of them are aligned with angels and some of them are aligned with demons. The types of humans vary- saints, doctors, investigators, trackers, drivers, etc, etc.


I never really thought of humans being split into two factions, one aligned with town and one aligned with mafia. Maybe there isn't a third party after all, maybe there are just two types of town and two types of mafia. But, there may be a cult.


Violet wrote:
My guess is that Mr. Squirrel is also a human who has investigative powers. I believe that Jak is human also. The reason he probably said angel, is because his role pm may say something like, "you win when all demon's have been eliminated." That is pure speculation- but to me, it seems that's the only reason why he would say angel.


Based on this, I just get the feel that violet is human because of the way the "made up" win condition is worded, verifying at the very least that she is human, if not town.

So, my vote still stays on Jak until a stronger case presents itself.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby ShaggyDan on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:44 pm

Have a major assignment due in 8 hours. Will catch up and post either afterwards or tomorrow morning (24 hours). Really sorry guys.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:50 pm

vodean wrote:angels are not saints. angels are pretty and have wings, saints smell like incense.


I thought it was only priests that smelled like incense. :lol:
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby gregwolf121 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:19 pm

first off sorry for inactivity internet is nonexistant in my apartment, but terminology wise i believe saint means holy, thus good, and ill need time to catch up so i won't vote, and yeah
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby safariguy5 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 pm

I think that calling someone saint or not is less important than knowing if they're town aligned. From what I figure, I think it's most likely that we have some humans who are Heaven aligned. Not sure about if there are any that are Hell aligned, there are going to be fewer Hell roles anyways, and it'd be very difficult to classify humans as anti saints or whatever. I mean, Ghost Rider and Spawn aren't walking through that door.

I will say that I think the idea of a cult is rather farfetched. Humans recruiting Angels/Demons/Both?

But can we get a prod on the inactives like Sully please?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby soundman on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:49 pm

aage wrote:
soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
soundman wrote:
aage wrote:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

It says "anyone who is in Heaven" which I would take to include angels. Hence why you have archangels with the saint title. Jak is claiming a saint who is an angel (but his name is human) while Vio is claiming a saint that is human (confirmed by Mr. S to not be an angel). I think the name is more important than the title. I would think that the Angels are angels (Michael, Gabriel, etc.) and the human saints are, well, human. Which makes me suspicious of Jak's claim.
I highlighted the bit in the wiki quote that I think is significant but you (and Mr. Squirrel too) somehow missed. Or we're not playing by the Roman Catholic book. Or the game is not completely mythologically accurate. Damn, it sucks that there are so many loopholes that we can't plug.

I didn't miss it, I think it's wrong. It contradicts itself. Anyone who is in Heaven (humans and angels) are saints. But then it says that angels don't count. But everywhere you look it's Saint Gabriel, etc. This is just my thoughts.

I assumed "anyone" referred to humans. God is in heaven, is he a saint?

Hmm, got me there. Still, I'm not sure about Jak's claim of not being human and yet having a human character name...
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby LSU Tiger Josh on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:12 pm

saints lowercase "s" would be general people. Saints with a capital "S" are the ones that are recognized as more than just a good person in heaven

I still believe humans are a third party and can be recruited to one side or the other. I changed my mind and don't think there is a cult involved as much as the 3rd parties just being a role similar to "traitor" on epic mafia where they want a certain side to win, but aren't considered to be "that side" officially.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby strike wolf on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:02 pm

I can see merit in questioning Jak claiming an angel with a human saint role however I think the overall standing of where humans stand in this game. Is probably not going to get us far. We have no deaths which means we are dealing with minimum flavor information. To base flavor assumptions off of what we had is all going to be WIFOM at this point. We can safely presume angels are town and Demons are mafia we cannot however presume the role of all humans at this point.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:34 am

Oh snappers! I must apologize, I forgot about this; I was busy over the end of last week and the weekend. Not that it particularly matters, since my vote was stolen anyway :(

I'll try to catch up. Seems to me I was taking heat yesterday, so I'll try to be quick-like! Thursdays I'm booked, but I'll see if I can't post something meaningful by Friday.

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:06 am

So there's 2 vote stealers? o.0
Are you sure your extra vote was stolen, Iliad? You could've been roleblocked, would make more sense.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby pancakemix on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:06 am

I think the argument about what a "saint" is should be more focused on what it means in the game rather than what it means in the church. If angels are considered saints, I must admit I've never heard of that, but I was indoctrinated Protestant and not Catholic, so that might be a factor. I think edoc was trying to make a distinction between the Angels and everyone else, and if they're supposed to be town, a saint from history (e.g. Joan of Arc, Francis of Assisi) seems a logical conclusion.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby strike wolf on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:12 am

So we have two people claiming to have their votes stolen. I too think it's a little weird that we have two vote stealers (at the very least we can't have two who are aligned the same). I believe it was Jak who claimed to have stolen victor's vote to begin with. So far no one has come forward to say that they were the one who stole Iliad's vote. Iliad also claims to have only had one of two votes stolen but has also proven his ability through action day 1.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby strike wolf on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:13 am

strike wolf wrote:So we have two people claiming to have their votes stolen. I too think it's a little weird that we have two vote stealers (at the very least we can't have two who are aligned the same). I believe it was Jak who claimed to have stolen victor's vote to begin with. So far no one has come forward to say that they were the one who stole Iliad's vote. Iliad also claims to have only had one of two votes stolen but has also proven his ability through action day 1.


Ebwop: I'd suggest testing this. Starting with Victor's vote.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby jonty125 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:34 am

strike wolf wrote:
strike wolf wrote:So we have two people claiming to have their votes stolen. I too think it's a little weird that we have two vote stealers (at the very least we can't have two who are aligned the same). I believe it was Jak who claimed to have stolen victor's vote to begin with. So far no one has come forward to say that they were the one who stole Iliad's vote. Iliad also claims to have only had one of two votes stolen but has also proven his ability through action day 1.


Ebwop: I'd suggest testing this. Starting with Victor's vote.


Hmm, I'm sure jak said this earlier but it must have got lost in this saint debate. I do agree the two vote stealers are probably not the same alignment.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby jgordon1111 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:14 pm

Ok,lets see if we cant get this out of the way, The whole pantheon battle is good vs evil.

This time it is angels vs demons. The idea here is to save human kind and bring them into heaven. The problem is demons trying to subvert them(cult).

The humans especially the saints have always been prime targets of the demons. Therefore they are the third party we are fighting over. The more of the humans that the demons subvert the more votes they will have to lynch angels.

So its easily breaks down to:

Angels town
Demons mafia
Saints third party

So the choice is finding the Demons and the subverted humans. I believe that is what Edoc might have been referring to in his scene.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:59 pm

Let's not make conjectures about what "edoc meant" like jgordon did above. All this discussion is really not getting us any closer to a lynch. The mafia are are probably in love with this because everyone is discussing game semantics rather than who is guilty.

So, because no one has presented a better case than Jak's (imho) I will at least get the ball rolling back toward building cases.

In day one after the joke vote stage was over, I noticed that there were basically three unresolved cases that I feel may warrant more discussion:

There was a small case on CMS (refer to page 14 in thread). Since nothing has changed, what do people think of that? (Sorry, I don't know how to imbed links to posts yet)

There were votes on Hensow, who hasn't contributed at all today. Comments?

There was a push for Sully on page 15. Anything change?

Let's not end the day by making a mistake, again.
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