Neoteny wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'll write this one off.
16 people got it right, but the marginal costs for the other 4 are too high to persuade.
The marginal cost of your mom is too high.
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Neoteny wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'll write this one off.
16 people got it right, but the marginal costs for the other 4 are too high to persuade.
The marginal cost of your mom is too high.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.
suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?
what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?
when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?
Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.
suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?
what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?
when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?
Voluntary is when you agree to it and involuntary is when you don't, all things considered.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?
Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?
I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?
I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.
that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.
john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.
suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?
what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?
when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?
Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?
I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.
that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.
Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.
BigBallinStalin wrote:john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.
suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?
what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?
when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?
Is this directed at me?
If so, do you know what "duress" means?
Bruceswar Ā» Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
john9blue wrote:mods you can close this thread now, it's over
Bruceswar Ā» Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't think FT understands what "duress" means...
BigBallinStalin wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?
I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.
that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.
Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.
C'mon, FT. The scenario was clarified, so be considerate and answer the question.
kentington wrote:john9blue wrote:mods you can close this thread now, it's over
I don't decide when a topic has been discussed enough. They can argue the same point for 347 pages for all I care. As long as it is civil and not flaming, then I will allow it.
BigBallinStalin wrote:john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.
suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?
what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?
when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?
Is this directed at me?
If so, do you know what "duress" means?
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.
why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?
john9blue wrote:do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary?
Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.
why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?
I'm glad you finally asked. Because they are, in the examples in question, part of the same transaction which started when you first accepted the terms(to remain in establishment) and more importantly, accepted your past, present and future benefits of said transaction.
john9blue wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.
suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?
what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?
when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?
Is this directed at me?
If so, do you know what "duress" means?
yes and yes. do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary? if so, at what point does the threat of physical contact become duress?
Funkyterrance wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't think FT understands what "duress" means...
Ha! If you're under duress in those examples it's your own damn fault, that's my point. Self imposed/inflicted duress is not my problem. Btw, nice ninja edit punk but the damage has been done. *sniff*BigBallinStalin wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?
I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.
that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.
Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.
C'mon, FT. The scenario was clarified, so be considerate and answer the question.
I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Wow, we've already been through these arguments. I give up.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Wow, we've already been through these arguments. I give up.
Funkyterrance wrote:john9blue wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.
why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?
I'm glad you finally asked. Because they are, in the examples in question, part of the same transaction which started when you first accepted the terms(to remain in establishment) and more importantly, accepted your past, present and future benefits of said transaction.
I don't see the argument that any of these things come out of the blue and slam into you. It's been implied from the get-go that you understand the conditions of all these exchanges so how could any but those where you are absolutely forced to do something be considered involuntary? I mean, when you get into a fistfight it's voluntary whether or not the other person started it or not right?
BigBallinStalin wrote:john9blue wrote:yes and yes. do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary? if so, at what point does the threat of physical contact become duress?
If I answered, then I would fall into the later trap of repeating myself, so here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039190
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039205
(The Kid-Parent Exchange involves the most mild duress ITT, but I'll be consistent and call that coercion, thus an involuntary exchange. But we're talking about the government, not screaming kids, so that ambiguity--for which a case can be made--is irrelevant).
When you think of exchange involving coercion/made under duress, do you think of someone threatening to poke you in the belly button like the Pillsbury Dough Boy? Or do you think of someone waving a gun at you, demanding your money?
(physical contact != physical violence).
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
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