Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

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Should Argentina talk/listen to the Falkland Islanders?

Yes
6
29%
Yes, but I have reservations
3
14%
I don't know
2
10%
No, but maybe under certain conditions
1
5%
No, never
7
33%
Kittens
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21

Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:30 pm

Thatcher Drive, a neat line of bungalows overlooking the Liberation Monument, encapsulates much of what Falklanders want to tell the world. In one window, a sign reads: “Falkland Islands – British to the core”. Next door, another sign says: “No need to knock. Door open. Come in. Give me a shout”.

On the adjoining main road through Port Stanley a cavalcade of Land Rovers – the vehicle of choice for the islands’ gritty roads – trundled past with Union Flags flying from their aerials and posters in the window reading: “Your country wants you to vote ‘yes’”.

This swirl of friendly patriotic pride, which will also include a display this evening of 50 4x4s arranged on a hillside opposite Stanley with their headlights spelling out “YES!”, will climax on Sunday morning when the 1,672 islanders eligible to vote begin to cast their ballots in the two-day referendum on British sovereignty.

After suffering a bellicose campaign from the Argentine government to cripple the Falklands economy and force negotiations on the ownership of “Las Malvinas” – the Argentine name for the islands – onto the international agenda (talks in which Buenos Aires has bluntly insisted the Falklanders would be irrelevant), this is the opportunity for these 3,000 hardy South Atlantic souls to make their voice heard on the world stage.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/special-report-falkland-islanders-prepare-to-resolve-their-future-8527280.html
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:53 pm

No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:03 pm

saxitoxin wrote:No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.


Governments should discuss with the people they govern, or want to govern.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:08 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.


Governments should discuss with the people they govern, or want to govern.


Yes. Argentina has offered to discuss with the legal representative of those people, the British Crown. It has refused.

The kelpers local council doesn't have the legal authority or practical power to change the status quo. Only the British Crown does. Negotiating with anyone other than the person or persons who have legal authority or practical power to change the status quo (British Crown) cannot produce results so is a meaningless waste of time. It's a transparently stupid attempt at a PR stunt.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:16 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.


Governments should discuss with the people they govern, or want to govern.


Yes. Argentina has offered to discuss with the legal representative of those people, the British Crown. It has refused.

The kelpers don't have either the legal authority or practical power to change the status quo. Only the British Crown does. Negotiating with anyone other than the person or persons who have legal authority or practical power to change the status quo (British Crown) cannot produce results so is a meaningless waste of time.


Bollocks- they wanted to talk with William Hague, who ain't the British Crown. He agreed as long as some of the representatives of the Falkland Islanders could be there too. Argentina then backed out.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:24 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.


Governments should discuss with the people they govern, or want to govern.


Yes. Argentina has offered to discuss with the legal representative of those people, the British Crown. It has refused.

The kelpers don't have either the legal authority or practical power to change the status quo. Only the British Crown does. Negotiating with anyone other than the person or persons who have legal authority or practical power to change the status quo (British Crown) cannot produce results so is a meaningless waste of time.


Bollocks- they wanted to talk with William Hague, who ain't the British Crown. He agreed as long as some of the representatives of the Falkland Islanders could be there too. Argentina then backed out.


As they should have. If you want to have a diplomatic negotiation you invite the people who are there to conduct serious negotiations. You don't also open a viewing gallery for the local yokels to chime in periodically with 'Oy, but wha' bout the KFC we was promised, guvn'r?' That's not how the Geneva Convention was negotiated, that's not how the transfer agreement will be negotiated.

Hague wanted a PR photo shoot. He may as well have invited Andrew Lloyd Weber and Andy Abraham. Hell, sell tickets to it. Argentina wanted serious, mature negotiations.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:29 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.


Governments should discuss with the people they govern, or want to govern.


Yes. Argentina has offered to discuss with the legal representative of those people, the British Crown. It has refused.

The kelpers don't have either the legal authority or practical power to change the status quo. Only the British Crown does. Negotiating with anyone other than the person or persons who have legal authority or practical power to change the status quo (British Crown) cannot produce results so is a meaningless waste of time.


Bollocks- they wanted to talk with William Hague, who ain't the British Crown. He agreed as long as some of the representatives of the Falkland Islanders could be there too. Argentina then backed out.


As they should have. If you want to have a diplomatic negotiation you invite the people who are there to conduct serious negotiations. You don't also open a viewing gallery for the local yokels to chime in periodically with 'Oy, but wha' bout the KFC we was promised, guvn'r?' That's not how the Geneva Convention was negotiated, that's not how the transfer agreement will be negotiated.

Hague wanted a PR photo shoot. He may as well have invited Andrew Lloyd Weber and Andy Abraham. Hell, sell tickets to it. Argentina wanted serious, mature negotiations.


A mature negotiation would involve the people involved, or at least their democratically elected representatives.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:34 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:No. Absolutely not. Never, ever, ever.

Argentina is a sovereign nation and should talk with the de facto sovereign power of the Malvinas, UK. Nations speak with Nations.

It would be racist and exceptionally demeaning to expect Argentina to negotiate with the so-called "Falkland Islanders" or the Northampton town council or the Ladies' Sewing Club of Carlisle. As for their so-called referendum, it's meaningless theatrics and can be ignored and disregarded.


Governments should discuss with the people they govern, or want to govern.


Yes. Argentina has offered to discuss with the legal representative of those people, the British Crown. It has refused.

The kelpers don't have either the legal authority or practical power to change the status quo. Only the British Crown does. Negotiating with anyone other than the person or persons who have legal authority or practical power to change the status quo (British Crown) cannot produce results so is a meaningless waste of time.


Bollocks- they wanted to talk with William Hague, who ain't the British Crown. He agreed as long as some of the representatives of the Falkland Islanders could be there too. Argentina then backed out.


As they should have. If you want to have a diplomatic negotiation you invite the people who are there to conduct serious negotiations. You don't also open a viewing gallery for the local yokels to chime in periodically with 'Oy, but wha' bout the KFC we was promised, guvn'r?' That's not how the Geneva Convention was negotiated, that's not how the transfer agreement will be negotiated.

Hague wanted a PR photo shoot. He may as well have invited Andrew Lloyd Weber and Andy Abraham. Hell, sell tickets to it. Argentina wanted serious, mature negotiations.


A mature negotiation would involve the people involved, or at least their democratically representatives.


Their legal representative is William Hague.

Britain has not granted them sovereignty, therefore, they do not have any legal character outside the framework of the British state. It is the supreme rudeness for Britain to demand a sovereign state (Argentina) treat with a legal non-entity (the kelpers). This was a rude, calculated offense by the British government.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:43 pm

Not at all- Argentina should talk to the representatives of the Islanders they wish to take control of.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:46 pm

Not at all- Argentina should talk to the representatives of the Islanders they wish to take control of.


First, if that were the case the Argentines would be negotiating with Big Benji, the King of the Penguins. Those are the only islanders the Argentines want to control. The humans there can go jump in the ocean for all they care.

Second, as I said, the representative of the (human) islanders is William Hague. And they are perfectly willing to speak with him.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:47 pm

Example -

United Kingdom to France: We would like to build an underwater tunnel crossing La Manche to connect Britain and France.

France to United Kingdom: The UK Prime Minister will have to negotiate all that with Jacques, the intern over at the Calais town road department. Young Jacques has no authority to make any decision one way or the other, however. But that's the guy we want you to speak with - and you must send your PM - and at least 2 viscounts and 5 earls - to talk to him. Good luck!
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:52 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Not at all- Argentina should talk to the representatives of the Islanders they wish to take control of.


First, if that were the case the Argentines would be negotiating with Big Benji, the King of the Penguins. Those are the only islanders the Argentines want to control. The humans there can go jump in the ocean for all they care.

Second, as I said, the representative of the (human) islanders is William Hague. And they are perfectly willing to speak with him.


As Argentina refused the meeting, I would say that "perfectly willing" is a bit of an exaggeration. The refusal was because the people who live there wanted to talk.
Last edited by Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:58 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Not at all- Argentina should talk to the representatives of the Islanders they wish to take control of.


First, if that were the case the Argentines would be negotiating with Big Benji, the King of the Penguins. Those are the only islanders the Argentines want to control. The humans there can go jump in the ocean for all they care.

Second, as I said, the representative of the (human) islanders is William Hague. And they are perfectly willing to speak with him.


As Argentina refused the meeting, I would say that "perfectly willing" is a bit of an exaggeration.


Let me rephrase that then - they are perfectly willing to speak with him in a dignified setting that respects the status of the Argentine state as an equal to the United Kingdom, which is to say without Pippa Middleton, Posh Spice and the night manager of the Port Stanley Fish 'n Chips all joining in to add their 0.02.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:02 pm

The people who live in the Falklands wanted to talk.
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Re: Should Argentina talk to the Falkland Islanders?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:08 pm

Symmetry wrote:The people who live in the Falklands wanted to talk.


If they are not satisfied with Hague's representation, they can declare independence from the UK and then talk directly to Argentina (or anyone else) on a sovereign-to-sovereign basis to their heart's content. Until then they will need to go through their legal representative, William Hague.

The Argentine Republic does not enter into diplomatic negotiations with local town councils. To demand Argentina humiliate itself before negotiations can begin is an unbelievable insult and shows Britain isn't serious about a peaceful settlement.

    edit: despite my slightly charged language, I respect your opinion and willingness to discuss this civilly, Sym; I apologize in advance or reverse if I say something that seems deprecating
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