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Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

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Should players be eliminated before the end in USA Supertournament tourneys?

Poll ended at Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:41 am

YES - eliminate players after Round 3 and after Round 5 as described in the post.
24
42%
NO - keep it as is (all 24 players in a tourney stay to the end)
33
58%
 
Total votes : 57

Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:41 am

A proposal to introduce eliminations into the remaining USA Supertournament tourneys.

This is in reference to the USA Supertournament

Background:
There have been some people who say the USA Supertournament results in too high a game load. I've always said, "Only join as many as you want to. There's no need to join them all." As for myself, I have only joined the tourneys on maps that I like and ignored the ones on maps I don't like. However, I admittedly don't expect to finish at the top. Having fun and ending up with a mediocre score is good enough for me. Having consideration for those who actually care and want to compete for the top, I suppose it's true that they have to join every one.

Various proposals have been made. Most, unfortunately, I can't accept. One proposal is to reduce the game load to one game per round. That, to me, reduces the statistical robustness of these tourneys too much. One game is just too much of a wild card. A second proposal is to extend the length of the tournament and only launch new tourneys every second week. That is also unacceptable to me. I'm doing a big 5-year project with the Great War. The whole point of the USA Super is that it is smaller and more compact and all the tourneys will be out in just a little over one year, with final results in probably 20 months or so. I've talked with bigWham on this and he agrees that extending it is unacceptable. There are too many events on the site taking forever -- the Championships took well over two years to wrap up, most TPA seasons take three years or more to finish, and the Great War is rolling for probably five. The USA Super is supposed to fill the gap as a shorter, more intense, mega-event. The third proposal, to eliminate players along the way, so that people who have no chance of winning are relieved of the need to play all the way through, is the only one I'm willing to entertain. Hence, this poll.

At present, the USA Supertournament tourneys have no eliminations. All 24 players play all the way to the end. This was my original conception: that there is always hope. Even if you have a horrible start, you can hope to overcome it before the end. I know some people like it that way, but I don't know how many. I'm willing to bend if there is a strong majority in favour of introducing elimination.

The proposed eliminations:
  • All 24 players will play in the first three rounds.
  • After round 3, the field will be cut in half. 12 players will play in rounds 4 and 5.
  • After round 5, the field will be cut to the top eight. 8 players will play in rounds 6 and 7.


On the down side, this eliminates the faint hope of catching up if you have a rotten start.

On the positive side, this will reduce overall game loads, at least for the people eliminated, and perhaps enable them to focus more in the tourneys where they're doing well. It will also somewhat reduce (though not eliminate) the problem of deadbeats in the later stages.

The Decision:
This is my event and ultimately I'm responsible for making the decision. I am looking for the "will of the people" here, but if it's a really fractured vote, like 51-49, my default position is NO CHANGE. The basic rule of thumb for tourneys is to make as few changes as is possible while still solving the biggest problems. I'm hoping the community will speak loud and clear here and have the vote be 80-20 one way or the other, but I'm probably willing to make the change even if it's 55-45 in favour of change. Less than that is probably not enough.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby LiveLoveTeach on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:56 am

I think eliminating 12 would be too drastic for it. There have been a few already where I was in the bottom half after rounds 1 and 2, but round 3, I had moved up a bit, and rounds 4 and 5 I moved up more.

There are a lot of games, but most of the 1v1 rounds or poly rounds go pretty quickly. I'd be frustrated if I had been improving in some of the more heavily weighted rounds in the middle, only to be eliminated before having a chance to try and improve further.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Mad777 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:59 am

I think there is a major factor that has been missed here talking about inserting elimination, the point system....

As you know when we let the Auto Tournament engine makes the elimination it uses less data that a TO and with a Casual Tournament does, if you decide to cut in half at some point how will you ensure that the last player is really the last player and not 20th, 18th position? Seeing the point system from the Event OP this can make a lot of difference for the overall ranking.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Lord_Bremen on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:53 pm

I might prefer going to 16/12 rather than 12/8. But this is definitely a good idea - the USA tournament is cool, but I'm finding that it's way too many games.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:37 pm

Just restructure the rounds so that the lowest point-value rounds are first and the higher point-value rounds are later.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby LiveLoveTeach on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:12 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Just restructure the rounds so that the lowest point-value rounds are first and the higher point-value rounds are later.


I think Mad's point is that because we get a different number of points based on where we end up in the tournament, eliminating people means we won't truly know where they were meant to place.

For example, if you eliminate the bottom 12, someone may "finish" in 18th place (earning 7pts for the overall tournament), instead of having the chance to move up into the place where they should actually belong.

If someone finishes in 20th place, they'd earn 5pts. Having the chance to play the other half of the tournament could give them a chance to move up into a higher position, earning them more points for the overall scoreboard.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Mad777 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:16 am

LiveLoveTeach wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Just restructure the rounds so that the lowest point-value rounds are first and the higher point-value rounds are later.


I think Mad's point is that because we get a different number of points based on where we end up in the tournament, eliminating people means we won't truly know where they were meant to place.

For example, if you eliminate the bottom 12, someone may "finish" in 18th place (earning 7pts for the overall tournament), instead of having the chance to move up into the place where they should actually belong.

If someone finishes in 20th place, they'd earn 5pts. Having the chance to play the other half of the tournament could give them a chance to move up into a higher position, earning them more points for the overall scoreboard.


Correct, and since we launched more than a third of the tournaments the 2 last third and the revised elimination rule can tremendously change the overall Event scores, If we are talking about 200 tournaments (34 States/Territories) remaining to be created with this new rules there is a maximum of 374 points to not gain counting on a player who is joining all tournaments and get unlucky all the time to earn the lowest score from the bottom 12 who gets eliminated. This could make a serious impact of the final score and I can see lot of questions/complaints at the end of the event if the top rank gets so tight that some member will use it as an unfairness rule change.

Just my 2 cents folks 8-)
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:57 pm

LiveLoveTeach wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Just restructure the rounds so that the lowest point-value rounds are first and the higher point-value rounds are later.


I think Mad's point is that because we get a different number of points based on where we end up in the tournament, eliminating people means we won't truly know where they were meant to place.

For example, if you eliminate the bottom 12, someone may "finish" in 18th place (earning 7pts for the overall tournament), instead of having the chance to move up into the place where they should actually belong.

If someone finishes in 20th place, they'd earn 5pts. Having the chance to play the other half of the tournament could give them a chance to move up into a higher position, earning them more points for the overall scoreboard.


Yes, I wasn't arguing his point. I was providing another suggestion entirely.

To keep people "in it" until the end, have all the poly and 2p rounds earlier and move the higher point rounds to later to keep the excitement high.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Godd on Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:07 am

why not make it a request to be eliminated the next round. if you are at the bottom with no chance to
get in the top 10 ten then the low additional points wont matter to some like me. Just a simple request
to be eliminated, then fair is fair
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby IcePack on Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:38 am

They’re automated and don’t have that level of sophistication
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:59 am

The proposal has been defeated.


All is not lost, however, I think I might try something like this....
DoomYoshi wrote:Just restructure the rounds so that the lowest point-value rounds are first and the higher point-value rounds are later.


Won't address the game load problem, but it might increase people's enjoyment.
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Re: Should the USA Supertournament introduce eliminations?

Postby Thorthoth on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:28 pm

Dukasaur wrote:The proposal has been defeated.
All is not lost, however, I think I might try something like this....
DoomYoshi wrote:Just restructure the rounds so that the lowest point-value rounds are first and the higher point-value rounds are later.

Won't address the game load problem, but it might increase people's enjoyment.

Actually Duk, Yosh's idea is pointless.
...and the majority just voted that there wasn't a game load problem, so just let it rest.
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