So here's a question

[jimboston]

You think humans are all one race, but you also think that Chinese people 'interbreeding' with non-Chinese people waters down Chinese culture?

Yeah, my bad... sometimes when typing quick reply’s I might not use the most precise word.

Humans are all one species, and really all one race.

No one really seems to agree what ‘race’ actually means... but if it’s all about looks I could pick two “white” people who look nothing alike and say they’re different ‘races’. If we can come up with a universal defied ‘race’ that everyone agrees to then we can use the word properly.

“Interbreeding” is probably not the best word either. The point there is in a different context (and you know it). When invading armies from Mongolia came to China (in the 13th century) and they mixed with local ethnic Chinese peoples they had babies together and mixed cultures. This mixing of cultures is fine and ‘normal’... but it makes saying “Chinese” culture is 5000 years old kinda not 100% correct. Chinese culture has changed and gotten mixed with cultures of other people’s and lost some stuff and gained some stuff.

[ConfederateSS]

You think humans are all one race, but you also think that Chinese people 'interbreeding' with non-Chinese people waters down Chinese culture?

Yeah, my bad... sometimes when typing quick reply’s I might not use the most precise word.

Humans are all one species, and really all one race.

No one really seems to agree what ‘race’ actually means... but if it’s all about looks I could pick two “white” people who look nothing alike and say they’re different ‘races’. If we can come up with a universal defied ‘race’ that everyone agrees to then we can use the word properly.

“Interbreeding” is probably not the best word either. The point there is in a different context (and you know it). When invading armies from Mongolia came to China (in the 13th century) and they mixed with local ethnic Chinese peoples they had babies together and mixed cultures. This mixing of cultures is fine and ‘normal’... but it makes saying “Chinese” culture is 5000 years old kinda not 100% correct. Chinese culture has changed and gotten mixed with cultures of other people’s and lost some stuff and gained some stuff.

,...................................................................................................................................................................................................................-------I always tell people ,I Am An Earth thing... ...Although that will offend someone ....You can't say anything near the P.C. police in America ,21st Cen. Style... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[mrswdk]

When invading armies from Mongolia came to China (in the 13th century) and they mixed with local ethnic Chinese peoples they had babies together and mixed cultures.

You still seem to be conflating ethnicity and culture. Why is the person being 'ethnic Chinese' important? And even if it is, a Mongolian person is ethnic Chinese (just the same as the Han, the Zhuang, the Hui etc. are all ethnic Chinese) so you are talking about two ethnic Chinese people having babies together anyway.

The Yuan Dynasty, one of the great Chinese dynasties, was founded by Kublai Khan in the 13th century. Kublai Khan was a Mongol from Mongolia, who was a Chinese emperor and his rule is a part of the history of the Chinese civilization.

The area that today is the nation state of Mongolia was a part of every Chinese dynasty from the 13th century up until the Qing Dynasty collapsed in 1911. Even now, only part of Mongolia is outside of the political entity of the People's Republic of China: Inner Mongolia is still a part of China, and there are more Mongols living in China than in Mongolia.

The only 'foreign' invasions of China were attacks by the Europeans, Americans and Japanese, but none of those succeeded in controlling much of the area for any extended period of time and none of them were able to eradicate the Chinese civilization.

[riskllama]

yet...

[jimboston]

When invading armies from Mongolia came to China (in the 13th century) and they mixed with local ethnic Chinese peoples they had babies together and mixed cultures.

You still seem to be conflating ethnicity and culture.

and you are purposefully playing dumb.

You Chinese people like to clam a “5000 year old civilization” as if it were one continuous and unchanging thing.

My point, made several different ways, was that the civilization has not been one continuous and unbroken line.

It’s been broken by wars, political upheavals, invasions, loss of technology, increase in technology, etc.

Do you deny this? If so you’re an idiot or a liar.

If not...

What is the value of the “5000 years”... if the culture has morphed and changed and grown and shrunk.

A civilization/culture should be judged on it’s merits today. Yes, history and art are factors but they are not the sole (or even the most important) factors... so judging a civilization/culture by its’ age and using some arbitrary number as the starting date it all moot.

Smoke and mirrors.

[mrswdk]

I like how whatever I say, you just ignore it all and repeat the exact same speech over and over. I think someone needs to revise PatriotBot’s code, otherwise it won’t be long before he starts talking about essay writing help.

[jimboston]

I like how whatever I say, you just ignore it all and repeat the exact same speech over and over. I think someone needs to revise PatriotBot’s code, otherwise it won’t be long before he starts talking about essay writing help.

It sounds to me like you’re describing yourself.

You’re the master of ignoring my points.

I admit when I make an error in language or insufficiently describe something.

You just take what I say and drive one factor to extremes.
Extremes are rarely useful.

[mrswdk]

I already gave multiple responses to your claim that war and invasion have stopped China having a continuous civilisation. Every time I do you just ignore all the points of substance and just play another game of ‘I said X but obviously meant Y’.

Got any views on my post about how Mongols are ethnic Chinese and Kublai Khan’s Yuan Dynasty is part of the Chinese civilization’s history?

[D3A7H]

This is one of those rare instances when I agree with Mrs. Chinese culture is ancient and continuous because it resides with the people not the government. Despite internal strife and foreign intervention the culture has endured. I think there is an adage that says some thing like the state may fall but the land remains. Even if the government collapsed or the country was conquered China would still be China.

[mrswdk]

Thanks, D3A7H. I’ll add you to the list of people who have begrudgingly accepted that Mrs WDK is correct. Other people on the list: everyone else who posts in OT.

[jimboston]

This is one of those rare instances when I agree with Mrs. Chinese culture is ancient and continuous because it resides with the people not the government. Despite internal strife and foreign intervention the culture has endured. I think there is an adage that says some thing like the state may fall but the land remains. Even if the government collapsed or the country was conquered China would still be China.

Please tell me what aspects of the culture have remained for 5000 years.

[D3A7H]

start with the language jim. some characters can be traced back almost 4k years.

[mrswdk]

The first dynasty is said to have been the Xia Dynasty, founded more than 4,000 years ago, albeit scholars disagree over the level of evidence for its existence. The Shang Dynasty was founded about 3,500 years ago and its existence is undisputed. The cult of the Yellow Emperor is one example of an element of Chinese culture that has remained influential from then up until the present day.

[jimboston]

start with the language jim. some characters can be traced back almost 4k years.

5000 years ... almost 4000 years

Not the same.

I’m not saying aspects of the culture are not ancient.
I’m not saying anything bad about the culture.
I am saying the current Chinese Culture is markedly different from the culture that existed in and around China 5000 years ago.

Therefore, to try to claim that there’s a “5000 year old culture” is a least a gross exaggeration and more likely just a false claim.
Also to try to claim this, as if it somehow makes your culture better than others, is confusing unrelated aspects of a culture.
Age is not equal to Quality.

Furthermore, you claimed I was confusing gov’t and culture. I’m not. I know they are not the same thing.
I also realize however that they are intimately related and the form of gov’t a people have influences their culture.
How much depends on many factors.... how repressive/open a gov’t is, how or if the gov’t supports arts/education, and how long a gov’t exists... just to name a few that come to mind quickly.

[jimboston]

The first dynasty is said to have been the Xia Dynasty, founded more than 4,000 years ago, albeit scholars disagree over the level of evidence for its existence. The Shang Dynasty was founded about 3,500 years ago and its existence is undisputed. The cult of the Yellow Emperor is one example of an element of Chinese culture that has remained influential from then up until the present day.

So because this religion is old and it influences culture in China today the culture is 5000 years old?

So the vast majority of Chinese people believe in the Yellow Emporer?
So this religion guides people’s daily lives?

Like I said, aspects of that ancient culture influence today’s culture... but to say it’s 5000 years old like it’s a continuous unbroken and unchanged thing...

[mrswdk]

The first dynasty is said to have been the Xia Dynasty, founded more than 4,000 years ago, albeit scholars disagree over the level of evidence for its existence. The Shang Dynasty was founded about 3,500 years ago and its existence is undisputed. The cult of the Yellow Emperor is one example of an element of Chinese culture that has remained influential from then up until the present day.

So because this religion is old and it influences culture in China today the culture is 5000 years old?

So the vast majority of Chinese people believe in the Yellow Emporer?
So this religion guides people’s daily lives?

Like I said, aspects of that ancient culture influence today’s culture... but to say it’s 5000 years old like it’s a continuous unbroken and unchanged thing...

The whole concept of the 'Chinese nation' binding all people of the Chinese civilization together - beyond the boundaries of modern nation states - is tied to all Chinese being descendants of the Yellow Emperor. So yes, ancient figures from thousands of years ago (incl. Yellow Emperor) have always been of great significance and continue to be of great significance to this day.

jim: 'Chinese culture has not been continuous for thousands of years. Name a part of Chinese culture that's existed since its creation'
mrs: 'The Yellow Emperor is a piece of Chinese culture that has existed since its creation.'
jim: 'Well naming one part of Chinese culture that is continuous is irrelevant because there are also other parts that are newer.'

Another great goalpost-shifting exchange with jimboston. Keep 'em coming!

[jimboston]

The first dynasty is said to have been the Xia Dynasty, founded more than 4,000 years ago, albeit scholars disagree over the level of evidence for its existence. The Shang Dynasty was founded about 3,500 years ago and its existence is undisputed. The cult of the Yellow Emperor is one example of an element of Chinese culture that has remained influential from then up until the present day.

So because this religion is old and it influences culture in China today the culture is 5000 years old?

So the vast majority of Chinese people believe in the Yellow Emporer?
So this religion guides people’s daily lives?

Like I said, aspects of that ancient culture influence today’s culture... but to say it’s 5000 years old like it’s a continuous unbroken and unchanged thing...

The whole concept of the 'Chinese nation' binding all people of the Chinese civilization together - beyond the boundaries of modern nation states - is tied to all Chinese being descendants of the Yellow Emperor. So yes, ancient figures from thousands of years ago (incl. Yellow Emperor) have always been of great significance and continue to be of great significance to this day.

jim: 'Chinese culture has not been continuous for thousands of years. Name a part of Chinese culture that's existed since its creation'
mrs: 'The Yellow Emperor is a piece of Chinese culture that has existed since its creation.'
jim: 'Well naming one part of Chinese culture that is continuous is irrelevant because there are also other parts that are newer.'

Another great goalpost-shifting exchange with jimboston. Keep 'em coming!

Go back to my original point... I never said it hasn’t been continuous.

Here’s what I said.

“Just because a civilization existed in the same place 5000 years ago it doesn’t necessarily mean that the culture is ‘better’.
What makes a culture better is subjective.

Furthermore you can pretend that the civilization was “continuous” and so that makes it ‘better’... but that’s BS. The civilization of mainland China has not been continuous and unbroken for 5000 years. In that time there’s been major political upheveals, invasions, occupations, interbreeding with. invaders and occupiers, etc. Technologies that were invented were lost or forgotten and then reinvented or rediscovered. At one point China was a major seafaring nation... but then they stopped exploring and lost the ability to navigate oceans such that when China was “discovered’ by the West the vessels were great for short distances but not ocean worthy.”

This was in retort to your jumping on the bandwagon of bashing US culture.

Meanwhile the culture of the USA is our main export and every other country, including China, gobble up US cultural exports.

So please don’t change to point of my original comment.

[mrswdk]

This was in retort to your jumping on the bandwagon of bashing US culture.

??

mrs: *talks about anything*
jimbean and others: YOU ARE BASHING THE US

Meanwhile the culture of the USA is our main export and every other country, including China, gobble up US cultural exports.

Now we see his true colours starting to emerge.

[nietzsche]

this is an interesting discussion, tho i haven't read it.

i mean, you cannot really let the arguments get in your head, you need to let the idea dance in your head by itself. maybe you can think of something new then, because, definitions are always there.

the interesting issue about american culture i thought from the day i typed that Tiny joke is that.. it's baseless. well, not exactly baseless, some aspects are adaptations from european culture, some from their incipient history as a nation but some of it seems rather.. commercial, cheap, or with some type of disregard for anything meaningful..

this last part is what seems interesting to many outsiders.. and we decide to mock it i guess, as a way to relate to it..


i will continue, maybe, after my cig

[NomadPatriot]

Göbekli Tepe was built 12,000 years ago in Turkey..
… Turkey still exists..

[jimboston]

This was in retort to your jumping on the bandwagon of bashing US culture.

??

mrs: *talks about anything*
jimbean and others: YOU ARE BASHING THE US

Meanwhile the culture of the USA is our main export and every other country, including China, gobble up US cultural exports.

Now we see his true colours starting to emerge.

You know I’m not a ‘blind’ patriot, so please don’t paint me as one.

That said if you bash the US for some baseless purpose or wrongly I’ll defend her.

[jimboston]

the interesting issue about american culture... it's baseless. well, not exactly baseless, some aspects are adaptations from european culture, some from their incipient history as a nation but some of it seems rather.. commercial, cheap, or with some type of disregard for anything meaningful..

this last part is what seems interesting to many outsiders.. and we decide to mock it i guess, as a way to relate to it..

Yes, a lot of non-Americans mock it... but then they eat it up.

Other countries mimic our culture, they consumer our baseless products and our entertainment, and they emulate the US.

Then in their next breath they mock it.

It’s hypocritical.

I think most aren’t even aware of what they’re doing.

If you want to mock it or disdain it, great, fine... but don’t then emulate it.

The more discerning recognize that there are aspects that are worth copying and valuing, and aspects that are not, and they can discriminate between the two.

... as for parts of our culture being adaptations of European culture. Of course.
The US is the ’great melting pot‘... or maybe the modern description is ‘the great salad’.
We’ve also adapted parts of Asian culture.
We’re still adapting and evolving. (As are all people always.)

I’d say most culture is ‘adapted’ from others is some way.
This may be one way where a place like China, with its’ “5000 year history” is different in that some aspects of the culture might be truly native.
(Doesn’t make it better, and doesn’t mean the majority of what you’d call current Chinese culture is that ancient.)

[nietzsche]

as i was saying..

this is a representation of one of the examples that came to mind:




(obviously this is not the definition of every american)


but i think what provokes the cognitive dissonance that in turn turns our different expressions to this cognitive dissonance is that a somewhat economically successful society has such a lack of meaningful culture.

the shirt that only says it's the biggest most comfortable i could find, the hat, everything like that.. the idea we get that as they see X cathedral or historical place, they will just say "check" and move on to the next with their dollars.

i guess the meaning is one of pragmatism? and surely in this world it's appreciated, but goes against our accepted ideas of what culture is.

but it falls under the umbrella of the definition culture for sure.



for instance, only to make contrast.. take an italian, dressed in tight clothes, layers, whatever. wearing that proud gesture of being fruit of the roman empire. his behaviour shows a certain culture with meaning, whatever this meaning is. with an american it appears to be all the contrary, the less meaning the better, so that he can put on the biggest tshirt on as long as it's comfortable.

we endure something given a meaning.


at the same time, the culture as it spreads thru some of your tv shows and movies is very very atheist. i don't know if many realise this but there's a lack of meaning accompanied by a very very atheist feeling in many of your tv shows.. pretty much preaching atheism. yet, as a country, you guys are really really religious. That's another contradiction that generates cognitive dissonance to the outsider, at times you look practical, business like.. and at times you look truly detained by religious ideas.

many times our minds get bent when we think stuff like.. "how's this idiot got so much money?" and we tend then to mock this stupidity as a way to cope.


those are just ideas, i hope you don't get a wrong idea, i know there are smart americans, there are educated americans, and there are well dressed americans, etc.

[jimboston]

i hope you don't get a wrong idea, i know there are smart americans, there are educated americans, and there are well dressed americans, etc.

You say this, right after basically lumping all Americans into a group you define as fat, “uncultured”, and confused about religion.



Have you ever been to America?

Have you worked with Americans in a close personal way?

There are something like 327 million Americans.

Aside from being all Americans... there’s no other label you can apply to those 327 million people.

Just saying.

Don’t get me wrong. I have my biases too.
I don’t think tourist Americans are the main tourists Europeans hate.
They may like to make fun of us in movies because they know we have a sense of humor.

... I’m betting the Chinese tourists are much more annoying.

Speaking for myself when I travel to Europe.
- I am polite to waitstaff.
- I like to strike up conversations when I find locals who are open to is.
- I tip still even though that’s really only an American thing.

... not sure that’s true of other tourist groups.

Who’d you rather wait on?

[nietzsche]

it's just as you said, we consume your culture..

if we were consuming chinese culture the way we're consuming american culture we'd have more things to say. not for nothing it's a stereotype.

i'm pretty much conceding it's a way to cope with the cognitive dissonance created by the fact that we expect a person with economical power to be more cultured... so it's kind of the compliment you were saying.