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Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:09 pm

I just find it interesting that the idea of renaming the map to 'Colonial Jamaica' is such anathema to a certain contingent in this thread that the mere suggestion of doing so has reduced them to quivering wrecks.

Numerous CC members have posted to say they feel uncomfortable with the map in its current form and the response from two vocal contrarians has been a load of bizarre semi-coherent ranting about how everyone should just go away because 'being offended is a choice' and 'we should protect history'.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby .SCuD. on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:25 pm

riskllama wrote:lol, mrs ain't no racist - just a troll.


If someone is saying racist things, and exhibiting racist behaviour, then I don't think it matters if they are doing it because they believe what they are saying or because they are trolling. The end result is the same.

You should be judged by your actions, and mrswdk's actions are unapologetically racist. There is no defense.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Extreme Ways on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:31 pm

Nut Shot Scott wrote:If I can sum up what I'm reading:

- You're racist lemmings if you disagree with OP.
- You're racist lemmings if you agree with OP.
- You're just plain racist if you're trolling.
- You're racist lemmings if you're white.
- You're racist lemmings if you're from the USA.
- You're mainly lemmings but probably racist, too if you're from the UK.
- You're definitely a racist lemming if you like llamas.

So pretty much, everyone is racist and we can all agree to disagree that this map that resides in a small, ignored corner of the WWW does or does not need to be changed due to the offensiveness or inoffensiveness of depictions of slaves, aka "free local labour", who did exist but we don't want to have existed in a place that may or may not want to acknowledge this part of their history for reasons that could be valid but also might be totally invalid. Complicated...

Luckily we are still allowed to be xenophobic at least.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby ljex on Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:48 pm

mrswdk wrote:It's interesting how you were so enthusiastic in defending anyone's right to say anything 'logical' if they want to, up until I said something you didn't agree with at which point your response was a three-post diatribe screeching about how I'm an anti-Semite who deserves to be taken to criminal trial.

But then you are also the guy who described this thread as 'a bit of fun' before later saying that any offense you profess to be taking should be totally disregarded by anyone reading your posts, so at least you were up front about how disingenuous your contributions to this thread were going to be.


You will likely think I am one of Louti's clan mates coming to his aid but I have to say you have lost a lot of credibility by your current signature and it is downright troubling that in this day and age people can feel justified in both trying to hold a moral high ground while also sinking to the depths that you have.

To put it bluntly I disagree with Louti fairly frequently on political issues and we have had some fairly heated private conversations about some of these disagreements (one of which was regarding the BLM movement). In fact I would agree with you that renaming the map to Colonial Jamaica is a pretty no regrets move to contextualize the time period the map is based on and would even understand the desire to remove such a symbol from the map as it has the potential to offend someone.

That said, there is simply no place for a signature like yours as it only serves to further the divide. You see at the end of the day because you have have chosen to post something so offensive directed right at Louti you have made it that much harder for us to progress as a society because now he has someone to push against. It has become that much clearer that your message is inconsistent, is hypocritical, or is selfish. Even sadder, beyond just the impact this has on one person some number of others will see and assume you are just some troll and also inherently decided to disagree with your message, or louti will share this with some of his family / friends and tell them either about how it hurt his feelings or that he met this silly internet troll who is the perfect embodiment of why the BLM protests shouldn't be listened to.

The true path to progress is maintaining credibility and actually inviting people to see your perspective on something rather than pushing them away for the sake of getting a rise out of them. You can do what you choose, but sit down and ask yourself if you actually want to see things get better because if you do pushing people away is just going to cause that progress to happen at a much slower pace.
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Re: mrswdk's Signature - Let's Change It

Postby Jdsizzleslice on Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:56 pm

#banmrswdkforbeinganantisemite
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Nut Shot Scott on Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:06 am

Gotta say, in all seriousness, I got 72 hours for posting legitimate c and a reports. Caff got a month for some tongue in cheek ethnic stereotypes after it was made clear that kind of thing was generally ok. But we are all good with some of this nonsense? This dude's sig is a swastika and a nazi salute, albeit being used as a sarcastic response to a completely valid and true statement, but I mean? Seems a little out of whack if you ask me.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:34 am

ljex wrote:The true path to progress is maintaining credibility and actually inviting people to see your perspective on something


I did. On page 1. So did others. The thoughtful contributions were then followed by loutil, SCuD et al spouting their fingers-in-the-ears 'protect history' nonsense. They clearly have their own axe to grind and are clearly not willing to listen to a calm and measured post. So then what? The only other option is to go for the emotional prompt and show them how it feels to be on the other side of the debate.

In all honesty with people like them there is no point engaging seriously. They had made their mind up before they even entered this thread. This would be the part of my post where I identify the people whose opinions do matter and who my posts are for the benefit of, but tbh the answer is 'no one's' because this thread is just going to go the same way as the 1 million other suggestions that have ever been made by CC users, which is that it will be completely ignored by any of the people that have any power to action it. So what is the point?

I'd also note that you apparently support the renaming/reframing of the Jamaica map and yet never said anything to that effect until I changed my signature.
Last edited by mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:53 am

Seeing as a bunch of cry babies are getting butthurt about my old signature (despite the same cry babies being fine with the Jamaica map how it is) I have now changed my sig to remove the offensive symoblism. Be the change you wish to see in the world, and all that*.

My signature is now a photo of Red Swastika Society members. Red Swastika was and is the Asian equivalent of the Red Cross, so my signature no longer contains any symbolism that is offensive to anyone. I therefore will not be changing it again.



*even if the world is too busy demanding BLM protesters be executed to give a shit
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby .SCuD. on Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:43 am

ljex wrote:
show


A very level headed response. In this case I would like to think that loutil has the intellectual nouse to discuss a point on it's own virtue. I don't believe he would sink to the level of disagreeing with a point simply because an immoral and intellectually dishonest person does believe it.

That does not take away from your general point though, which is that it gives 'your' side a bad name. Whichever side you are on. I'm quite centrist politically, but my general view is that AT THE MOMENT the left is plagued with far more immorality, racism, hate, subversion etc etc than the right. I've capitalised "At the moment" as a crucial part of that statement, as it changes throughout history, which I'm sure we can agree both Maoist China and Nazi Germany will provide ample evidence for. Comments made in this thread have certainly done little to change my mind.
For many people, you are right, they will close their ears now. The fight has been lost.

Now, I like to think of myself as level headed enough to discuss a subject on it's own merits too. I'm happy to disregard the verbal diarhorrea of troublemakers and discuss and think about the problem in isolation.

In this particular instance I only see a benefit to renaming the map as "Colonial Jamaica", "Jamaica XXXX" (insert date here), or something similar, and perhaps even adding some contextualising text to describe the map.
I'm not personally offended by any of it without the name change, and I think it is a bit ridiculous to be offended by it, but I don't need to be offended to believe that the change warrants some merit. For me the name "Colonial Jamaica" is more precise than "Jamaica". I like precision. If we can improve the precision of a title, well that is all the argument I need. Precision precision precision... precision. (Sorry, I just like the word... precision)

I think there will be many people who say "we don't want to change the name because we don't want to appear to bow to "snowflakism"". And to those people I would say... chill... don't worry about it... pick your battles.
I agree that you should avoid bowing to pressure in certain scenarios, as it becomes an ever increasing tide that can rip everything apart. But that only happens you accept the change for the reasons your (for want of a better word) opponents requested it.
If you agree to the name change and make it abundantly clear you are agreeing on the basis of precision, not offence, then there is no ideological win for them anyway.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby .SCuD. on Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:14 am

mrswdk wrote:Seeing as a bunch of cry babies are getting butthurt about my old signature (despite the same cry babies being fine with the Jamaica map how it is) I have now changed my sig to remove the offensive symoblism. Be the change you wish to see in the world, and all that*.

My signature is now a photo of Red Swastika Society members. Red Swastika was and is the Asian equivalent of the Red Cross, so my signature no longer contains any symbolism that is offensive to anyone. I therefore will not be changing it again.



*even if the world is too busy demanding BLM protesters be executed to give a shit


Just so the CC community is aware, I have reported the above post from mrswdk with the following statement attached to the report.


This person needs to be dealt with.

For context they initially created a signature that showed a quote from loutil next to a swastika and a Nazi salute. They were previously informed that loutil is Jewish and had family who died in the holocaust. This is bad enough even if they did not know those facts about loutil.
(I have a screenshot of the signature for your reference if you require it)

They MAY argue that they didn't see that post, and it wasn't meant in that way. But they made many posts after it was brought to their attention, and highlighted over and over again. Even if it was not intended as an anti-semitic slur originally, mrswdk was willing to leave it as his signature in full knowledge of the facts. At that point I believe there can be no doubt about mrswdk's ill intent.

They have now changed their signature, which is what the reported post relates to.

They have changed the picture to 4 people with Swastika's on their arms and said that as it is now members of the "Red Swastika Society", not Nazis, there can be no offence. They have also left the quote from loutil there.

In response I would say that it is very clear that loutil also holds no connection to the "Red Swastika Society", or any other group that has a swastika as a symbol. It is abundantly clear that mrswdk has chosen this image in an attempt to continue to show loutil's statement next to symbolism that was used by Nazi Germany. It is equally clear that it has nothing to do with the "Red Swastika Society", there is simply not contextual reason or connection that could allow it to be anything to do with them.

Hence I argue that this "improvement" is in fact the opposite. It is a clear show of intent from mrswdk that far from apologising for his awful actions, he intends on doubling down on his anti-semitic attacks towards members of the CC community.

I don't know CC's procedure in such situations, but this is by far the most abhorrent behaviour I have seen from someone on any forum based website I have ever been involved in, and as such I believe that mrswdk should be removed from participation in the forum.

It is a shame, as I am a strong proponent of free speech, and whilst I disagree with almost everything mrswdk says I would fight for him to have a forum to state his opinions. BUT there is a difference between free speech and free abuse. As such, whilst removing him from participating in such discussions would have the regrettable affect of also silencing his opinions, it is something that must be done. We cannot allow free sustained abuse to go unchecked.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:58 am

Stating that the Red Swastika society uses symbolism associated with Nazi Germany is like stating that the Red Crescent uses symbolism associated with ISIS. Sounds like you have a very white Western-centric view of the world, which goes some way to explaining your unwillingness to accept that there is anything wrong with the Jamaica map in its current form.

Your shrill attempts to paint me as an anti-Semite despite the fact anyone with half a brain can see that I'm not demean you and I believe you can do better.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Extreme Ways on Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:23 am

I know mrs is trolling, but nowhere did Lou state that he is very much against renaming the map to Colonial Jamaica. Despite what mrs frames, Lou's quote of 'history is history' does not in any way mean he condones any of it.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:36 am

Extreme Ways wrote:I know mrs is trolling, but nowhere did Lou state that he is very much against renaming the map to Colonial Jamaica. Despite what mrs frames, Lou's quote of 'history is history' does not in any way mean he condones any of it.


Yeah you're right, he's actually been very supportive of OP's idea throughout this thread:

loutil wrote:Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it... History is a historical record. I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.


loutil wrote:I am not interested in changing things just because someone chose to be offended.
What if I said that I am offended by people who take offense at historical realities? Should your speech be silenced?


loutil wrote:You seem to be one of those people who like to play the victim card and find reasons to be offended by innocuous or otherwise irrelevant stuff.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:59 am

mrswdk wrote:
Extreme Ways wrote:I know mrs is trolling, but nowhere did Lou state that he is very much against renaming the map to Colonial Jamaica. Despite what mrs frames, Lou's quote of 'history is history' does not in any way mean he condones any of it.


Yeah you're right, he's actually been very supportive of OP's idea throughout this thread:

loutil wrote:Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it... History is a historical record. I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.


loutil wrote:I am not interested in changing things just because someone chose to be offended.
What if I said that I am offended by people who take offense at historical realities? Should your speech be silenced?


loutil wrote:You seem to be one of those people who like to play the victim card and find reasons to be offended by innocuous or otherwise irrelevant stuff.

As you so love to do, being intellectually dishonest again, you take my statements out of context. The intent of the OP was to remove the iconography, not change the name of the map. There is no offense in the maps name and changing it to better reflect what it represents is a good choice. That is not the same as someone being offended by something and demanding it be changed.

I will add: when you chose to create an offensive signature, I said nothing. Now that you have tried to play semantics and find a way to keep up a clearly offensive signature. I again have nothing to say. I practice what I preach. You clearly do not. Character is a funny thing....
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:27 am

How is my signature offensive? It is just a historical fact that there was and is a humanitarian organisation in Asia called the Red Swastika Society. In your own words, 'I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.'

Either way, you appear to have finally admitted that you are fine with changing the map but rather than just going along with the idea decided to argue the toss instead. Looks like this thread is now almost unanimous in agreeing to change the map's name to Colonial Jamaica/Colonial Era Jamaica.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:31 am

mrswdk wrote: So it would now appear that this thread is now almost unanimous in agreeing to change the map's name to Colonial Jamaica/Colonial Era Jamaica.

The thread was pretty much agreed to that two pages ago.

That was before you and Kotaro decided to drive down a side road of completely pointless and irrelevant personal attacks on loutil, which contributed nothing to the discussion except to poison the waters.

As there are some outstanding reports to deal with, I will LOCK this thread for the time being. It may be unlocked later.
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Re: Jamaica

Postby mrswdk on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:56 am

As per this thread, can we consider a name change for this map:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=234368
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Re: Jamaica

Postby .SCuD. on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:59 am

This was already discussed and the other thread was locked for a reason... stop trying to create drama and trolling. Reporting this post simply because it is trying to subvert the decision of Dukasaur to lock the previous thread whilst they decide what to do.
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