Conquer Club

I have always been told that ending a sentence with a preposition is a big no no. Recently I have been doing some research on the matter and I have found that no such rule even exists (in English) and that the rule might just be and inadvertent carry over from Latin.

I have read some say that the sentence...

"Who did you vote for?"

Would be more correct if written in the form...

"For whom did you vote?"

While others say that either version is correct.


I have also read that it is okay to end a sentence with a preposition as long at that preposition is critical to the meaning of the sentence, for example...

"What did you just step on?" makes no sense if written "What did you just step?" although it could be written "On what did you just step?" but that sounds completely retarded.

So WTF?

Are there any English experts out there that might have something definitive on this matter.

It's "Proper English" if 99.9% of English speakers understand it. I see nothing wrong with ending a sentence with propositions. Some people I know (my dad in particular) end sentences with conjunctions when they speak. They'll end a sentence with "and", "or", "so", etc., and just trail off. It's annoying as hell because I have to wait to see whether they have anything else to say. People need to stop doing that shit.

We were taught at school, Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.

demonfork wrote:

I have also read that it is okay to end a sentence with a preposition as long at that preposition is critical to the meaning of the sentence, for example...

Im not an english expert, but when I try i am fairly articulate.

I believe the quote above is the correct ruling.

jonesthecurl wrote:We were taught at school, Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.

The joke is "A preposition is a thing not to end a sentence with." You can't fix your sentence to be grammatically correct: "Never use a preposition with which to end a sentence…"?

A preposition is a thing with which not to end a sentence.

The thing is it's always possible to avoid it, the rule suggests that one should not but that it's not a rule without exceptions.

Game over.

FattyMcFat! How are ya!

Army of GOD wrote:FattyMcFat! How are ya!

Decent…wait hey!

demonfork wrote:I have always been told that ending a sentence with a preposition is a big no no. Recently I have been doing some research on the matter and I have found that no such rule even exists (in English) and that the rule might just be and inadvertent carry over from Latin.

I have read some say that the sentence...

"Who did you vote for?"

Would be more correct if written in the form...

"For whom did you vote?"

While others say that either version is correct.


I have also read that it is okay to end a sentence with a preposition as long at that preposition is critical to the meaning of the sentence, for example...

"What did you just step on?" makes no sense if written "What did you just step?" although it could be written "On what did you just step?" but that sounds completely retarded.

So WTF?

Are there any English experts out there that might have something definitive on this matter.

I remember hearing a famous quote from Winston Churchill about this. Ironically, the first time I heard this rule was when I was not in the US, but was overseas. (I heard it from a teacher of English in that country) That said, when speaking I rarely do end with a preposition.

Anyway, all languages evolve in time. Rules change. Rules are added, rules are deleted.

"What are you looking for?"

It seems totally correct to me. Am I wrong?

For what are you looking?

With a question, it's acceptable, because technically the sentence structure is altered to account for the interrogative sentence.

"What are you looking for?", as a declarative sentence, would read, "You are looking for what."

"What" is the object of the preposition in both sentences. It's just out of place because it's a question.

Now, if you were to say, "The super-secret dice hack is what I am looking for.", that would be wrong. You should say, "I'm looking for the super-secret dice hack."

john9blue wrote:It's "Proper English" if 99.9% of English speakers understand it. I see nothing wrong with ending a sentence with propositions. Some people I know (my dad in particular) end sentences with conjunctions when they speak. They'll end a sentence with "and", "or", "so", etc., and just trail off. It's annoying as hell because I have to wait to see whether they have anything else to say. People need to stop doing that shit.

No this populist idea that it's proper if people understand is bottom line wrong.
Just because your dad does it does not make it ok.

As per the preposition "rule", I'm a pretty big prescriptivist and would agree with the idea that no, you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition.

The reason being that English is heavily dependent on word order to carry meaning. A preposition, by definition, qualifies an idea, but comes "pre" "position" of what it's qualifying. That said, it's one of those "rules" that you use as a guideline. Like, "i" before "e" except after "c." 90 percent of the time that works, but there are exceptions. The same thing with the preposition.

These "rules" that we have in English, and any language really, are there to use as tools to enhance and create greater accuracy in our speech and writing. To ensure that our message is carried over. If you know the rule, and know when it's acceptable to break it, then yes, end a sentence with a preposition. As well, it's just considered sloppy, apathetic writing to do so.

There's been a big push in the past 30/40 years to say "damn the man" and try and poke holes in anything that's considered established or proper English. But language, like everything else is political. You'll find that people taut off on one slant or another for their own purposes.

I say again, though. Many of the "rules" can be broken. You just have to master the tools in which you're using before you can use them for more complex jobs.

Anyway, if you're interested in reading a really good article (probably one of the best I've read), check out Tense Present: the politics of the English language. April 2001 or 2002 Harpers Magazine.

nesterdude wrote:No this populist idea that it's proper if people understand is bottom line wrong.

Then why has proper English changed over the years?

john9blue wrote:

nesterdude wrote:No this populist idea that it's proper if people understand is bottom line wrong.

Then why has proper English changed over the years?

It changes slowly.

"Proper English" is just bulls*** anyway.

"Ain't" should be a 'real word' considering the large amount of people say it.

Inb4 "BUT WHERE DOES THE I COME FROM?!"

Did anyone even read what I wrote?

72o wrote:With a question, it's acceptable, because technically the sentence structure is altered to account for the interrogative sentence.

"What are you looking for?", as a declarative sentence, would read, "You are looking for what."

"What" is the object of the preposition in both sentences. It's just out of place because it's a question.

Now, if you were to say, "The super-secret dice hack is what I am looking for.", that would be wrong. You should say, "I'm looking for the super-secret dice hack."

Proper would be "For what are you looking?" if you want to get technical
The second half of your position is the difference between active and passive.

I always think of this when I read Lionz's posts.

nesterdude wrote:Now, if you were to say, "The super-secret dice hack is what I am looking for.", that would be wrong. You should say, "I'm looking for the super-secret dice hack."

That's just passive voice vs. active voice. There's nothing grammatically wrong with the passive voice.

For the super-secret dice hack I am looking.

nesterdude wrote:To ensure that our message is carried over.

Nice example.